Some difficulties with Prophecy & Messiah

[Praedicare]

Hello friends,

During Advent I always like to deepen my understanding of the time before Jesus: to understand the prophets and the yearning of Israel for Meshiach.

This year, I came across a few Jewish apologists and decided to listen to them.
What they said astonished me. I won’t say their names, just so we can focus on their words instead of their characters. Let’s summarize their words:

“Messiah” means “anointed”. It is said of priests, kings, prophets, candlesticks, and many things in the Torah & Tanakh. Apart from 4-5 times in Leviticus, however, “Ha Meshiach” (The Messiah), does not appear anywhere in the Hebrew Bible. So, how can we expect “The” Messiah if there’s no prophecy about a specific messiah? There’s a Messianic Age, to be sure, but…?

Of course, I’ve heard the Church say that many prophecies point to a specific messiah without having to say the word. There’s “the prince” in Ezekiel. There’s God coming to shepherd us personally as well. There are many things. One can accept or reject them.

What bothers me, though, is the way in which the New Testament uses the Tanakh to validate itself.

The best examples are in Matthew. When he says “Out of Egypt I have called my son”, it’s clearly a quote from Hosea 11 about Israel as a whole. It is not a prophecy about Messiah; therefore, you’d think, it is not applicable to Messiah. The same goes for the weeping in Ramah (Luke) and many other non-Messiah passages. “The Virgin” of Isaiah is clearly a person who was alive and known to King Ahaz during the siege of Jerusalem. It could hardly be a “sign” to them if a virgin would conceive 700 years later!

It seems as if every single prophecy that Jesus “fulfilled” is just a random application of an Old Testament verse to something Jesus happened to do. It feels inconsistent. It seems as if pretty much anyone could say “thus it was fulfilled” about practically anything. I have very grave doubts about Jesus now.

Any thoughts?

 

[ProdglArchitect]

Hello friends,

During Advent I always like to deepen my understanding of the time before Jesus: to understand the prophets and the yearning of Israel for Meshiach.

This year, I came across a few Jewish apologists and decided to listen to them.
What they said astonished me. I won’t say their names, just so we can focus on their words instead of their characters. Let’s summarize their words:

“Messiah” means “anointed”. It is said of priests, kings, prophets, candlesticks, and many things in the Torah & Tanakh. Apart from 4-5 times in Leviticus, however, “Ha Meshiach” (The Messiah), does not appear anywhere in the Hebrew Bible. So, how can we expect “The” Messiah if there’s no prophecy about a specific messiah? There’s a Messianic Age, to be sure, but…?

Of course, I’ve heard the Church say that many prophecies point to a specific messiah without having to say the word. There’s “the prince” in Ezekiel. There’s God coming to shepherd us personally as well. There are many things. One can accept or reject them.

What bothers me, though, is the way in which the New Testament uses the Tanakh to validate itself.

The best examples are in Matthew. When he says “Out of Egypt I have called my son”, it’s clearly a quote from Hosea 11 about Israel as a whole. It is not a prophecy about Messiah; therefore, you’d think, it is not applicable to Messiah. The same goes for the weeping in Ramah (Luke) and many other non-Messiah passages. “The Virgin” of Isaiah is clearly a person who was alive and known to King Ahaz during the siege of Jerusalem. It could hardly be a “sign” to them if a virgin would conceive 700 years later!

It seems as if every single prophecy that Jesus “fulfilled” is just a random application of an Old Testament verse to something Jesus happened to do. It feels inconsistent. It seems as if pretty much anyone could say “thus it was fulfilled” about practically anything. I have very grave doubts about Jesus now.

Any thoughts?

One very, very important thing to keep in mind when listening to Rabbis is that, unlike Catholicism, they do not have a core set of beliefs regarding the meaning of scripture. In this way, Judaism far closer to Protestantism than Catholicism; different rabbis may have different interpretations of scripture, both of which they can give reason for through the OT. While this Rabbi may say one thing about the meaning of “messiah” and whether or not a particular verse is pointing forward to the Messiah, another Rabbi may say something completely different.

We see examples of this in Scripture itself, with the Pharisees and Sacristies. These were not two different levels of the priestly hierarchy, but rather two completely different schools of though who held opposing views on the nature of the afterlife, the Sacristies even going so far as to reject the very notion of the afterlife altogether.

There are different forms of Judaism in the modern world who hold competing views on a number of key issues. What you have heard is only one particular interpretation of the OT scriptures. It is likely that there are a dozen or more schools of though which hold an opposing viewpoint to this one.

Another very important thing to consider is that scripture very rarely has one meaning or one specific temporal application. While the passage about bringing his people out of Egypt may have had a specific meaning when it was written, that does not preclude it from also looking forward to the Messianic age.

Ultimately though, I think the important thing is not to look at how many OT prophecies Jesus fulfilled, but rather to look at Christ’s life as a whole. Even if there were no OT prophecies, Christ still healed the sick, cured the blind, may the lame walk, fed thousands with a handful of bread and fish, and on an on and on. all of these things were foreshadowed in the OT, but even if they hadn’t been Christ still did them. Most importantly, Christ not only claimed divine sonship, but also backed up that claim by rising from the dead. Even without the OT, that’s a pretty big hurdle for non-believers to overcome. (If you’re going to respond with something like “maybe they made it up,” or “maybe that was added in later,” then I have an episode of a radio program you need to listen to, which outlines exactly why those are logically-tenable positions to hold.)

One last thing you could look at is the countless miracles that have happened in Christ’s name. While I don’t use miracles when debating atheists (usually because they conveniently forget / ignore the fact that all modern miracles go through rigorous scientific vetting…), I feel comfortable reminding believers about them in times of spiritual crisis. We have countless instances of unexplained healing and miraculous recoveries through Church history, all of which are linked back to Jesus Christ and His followers. Look at the miracles that have come from Lourdes, all of which have undergone stringent testing and attempts at refutation, but have been declared miracles on account of being completely explainable. I recall hearing about one particular miracle we have photographic evidence for, where a woman’s who suffered from a flesh-eating bacteria had her hands and face completely restored after bathing in the waters.

There are also the countless Eucharistic miracles, where the host has literally become flesh and blood.

I hope this helps. God bless!

 

[frangiuliano115]

I agree with ProdiglArchitect.

All I’d like to add is that what are the chances of randomly fulfilling just 5 prophecies?
Astronomical.

Plus, the apostles accepted Jesus as Messiah. Were they dumb? They were more Jewish than any Jewish Rabbi today I’d say. They died for Him.

Also, I don’t like to concentrate on the prophesies. I like to concentrate on the resurrection.

I like John 1:11-13

11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

Fran

 

[myway]

Isaiah is often called the prophet of advent despite the fact he lived 700 centuries before Jesus. He prophesied the Messiah would be born of a virgin according to Isaiah 7:14.

 

[myway]

Isaiah is often called the prophet of Advent despite the fact he lived 700 years before Jesus. He prophesied the Messiah would be born of a virgin according to Isaiah 7:14.

Jesus is the Messiah Isaiah predicted. In Matthew 1:23 through the virgin the holy spirit gives us Emmanuel just as Isaiah predicted. Emmanuel means God with us.

You need to focus on the resurrection of Jesus. Acts 2:36 speaks of Jesus as the one you have crucified. Before we can know God we must understand that Jesus is still the Messiah and not just a prophecy.

Don’t let others change your mind. You can always find what is true in the Catholic Church.

 

[Gorgias]

The best examples are in Matthew. When he says “Out of Egypt I have called my son”, it’s clearly a quote from Hosea 11 about Israel as a whole. It is not a prophecy about Messiah; therefore, you’d think, it is not applicable to Messiah. The same goes for the weeping in Ramah (Luke) and many other non-Messiah passages. “The Virgin” of Isaiah is clearly a person who was alive and known to King Ahaz during the siege of Jerusalem. It could hardly be a “sign” to them if a virgin would conceive 700 years later!

Scripture is multivalent; part of the richness of God’s Word (in the Catholic tradition) is that there are multiple layers of meaning present in the text. There’s the literal sense (in which we read what the inspired author meant to write), as well as the spiritual senses. One of these is the ‘allegorical’ sense, in which we see Christ present in the text. Prophecy, I’d argue, works similarly. It makes sense in the context of the time of the prophets’ utterances – but, it also makes sense in a messianic context as well! Asking Scriptural prophecy to only constrain itself to a single meaning in a single context is to ask it to stop being prophecy.

It seems as if every single prophecy that Jesus “fulfilled” is just a random application of an Old Testament verse to something Jesus happened to do. It feels inconsistent. It seems as if pretty much anyone could say “thus it was fulfilled” about practically anything. I have very grave doubts about Jesus now.

A couple of thoughts for you: first, if all you had was prophecy and a single arbitrary person’s interpretation of it, then I’d agree with you – that’s pretty shaky. But, that’s not what you have: you have the written record of what Jesus said and did (as Fran has mentioned); you have the testimony of those who were present during Jesus’ life, as attested throughout the generations; you have the promises of Jesus of protection of His Church; and you have the sacraments that He instituted.

second, it seems to me that you’re trying to make prophecy do something that it’s not intended to do. Prophecy isn’t meant to act as proof, per se, looking backward; it’s meant to allow people to look forward with hope and expectation. Moreover, it allows people to recognize the object of the prophecy when it occurs. On its own, it doesn’t constitute proof – but it does act as part of a body of evidence.

 

[frangiuliano115]

Hello friends,

During Advent I always like to deepen my understanding of the time before Jesus: to understand the prophets and the yearning of Israel for Meshiach.

This year, I came across a few Jewish apologists and decided to listen to them.
What they said astonished me. I won’t say their names, just so we can focus on their words instead of their characters. Let’s summarize their words:

“Messiah” means “anointed”. It is said of priests, kings, prophets, candlesticks, and many things in the Torah & Tanakh. Apart from 4-5 times in Leviticus, however, “Ha Meshiach” (The Messiah), does not appear anywhere in the Hebrew Bible. So, how can we expect “The” Messiah if there’s no prophecy about a specific messiah? There’s a Messianic Age, to be sure, but…?

Of course, I’ve heard the Church say that many prophecies point to a specific messiah without having to say the word. There’s “the prince” in Ezekiel. There’s God coming to shepherd us personally as well. There are many things. One can accept or reject them.

What bothers me, though, is the way in which the New Testament uses the Tanakh to validate itself.

The best examples are in Matthew. When he says “Out of Egypt I have called my son”, it’s clearly a quote from Hosea 11 about Israel as a whole. It is not a prophecy about Messiah; therefore, you’d think, it is not applicable to Messiah. The same goes for the weeping in Ramah (Luke) and many other non-Messiah passages. “The Virgin” of Isaiah is clearly a person who was alive and known to King Ahaz during the siege of Jerusalem. It could hardly be a “sign” to them if a virgin would conceive 700 years later!

It seems as if every single prophecy that Jesus “fulfilled” is just a random application of an Old Testament verse to something Jesus happened to do. It feels inconsistent. It seems as if pretty much anyone could say “thus it was fulfilled” about practically anything. I have very grave doubts about Jesus now.

Any thoughts?

I’m going to post some more stuff I had written on a different thread - just not to duplicate.

I’m doing Mathew in a bible study here right now. I picked this gospel because it’s the most Jewish and because Mathew was addressing a Jewish audience. He refers to the O.T. 99 times. Sometimes you have to understand that the O.T. is a presage to the New.
In the sense that there are sign in the O.T. Some are a bit of a stretch.

Take My Son Out of Egypt does refer to Israel. But it also refers to when Jesus, as a child, was taken out of Egypt by his parents after they had lived there, maybe a few years. So are you saying this was made up just to fulfill the O.T. idea? Or do you not accept that it could mean two different things?

What about all the Davidic prophecies. They were meant for David’s son, Solomon. But they also could mean Jesus and in fact they were completed by Jesus. I’m thinking of all the Psalm prophecies for instance.

What about Isaiah 9:7 to Luke 1:32,33.

Also, let’s remember that there were two Messiah’s mentioned in the Tanakh. The Suffering Servant and the Conquering King. The first was the first time Jesus appeared, the second will be fulfilled at His second coming.

Anyway, here is a post, I think I may have a second one and will check:

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

In the bible I have on my desk right now, there are 44 prophecies fulfilled; i just counted them. There are more. I’ve never seen all of them listed at the same time although I’m sure you could find this somewhere on the net.

The fact the he didn’t set up an earthly kingdom in a literal sense is what holds the Jews back even today. Also, they say the temple has to be rebuilt before He could come (first time for them) so that’s holding them back too - although many Jews do accept Jesus as Messiah - Messianic Jews. You must know that they accept Jesus but maintain their Jewish customs.

We don’t know for sure what God has in mind for us. We have to accept that he’s doing everything just right. Many ask me why Jesus waited till the year 6 or 7 B.C. (approx) before coming to us in human form. Turns out that God has the timing and the timing was right.

Apparently the earthly kingdom is not to be for now but for when Jesus returns the second time. Remember when he was talking to Nicodemus in the garden outside Jerusalem? Jesus told him that the Kingdom is all around but you have to believe to see it. I do believe that Jesus was sent to set up a spiritual kingdom, and the earthly kingdom will not appear until the end of the world. (John 3:1)

Do you realize the chances of fulfilling more than 1 or 2 prophecies? All the prophecies He fulfilled would be like filling the state of Texas with silver coins a few inches in height. Putting one gold coin in there somewhere and then finding it. These are the same chances as Jesus fulfilling all the prophecies He did.

So we can’t worry about God’s timing. Or how He does things. Which is basically what your asking here. I think.

Fran

 

[myway]

I’m doing Mathew in a bible study here right now. I picked this gospel because it’s the most Jewish and because Mathew was addressing a Jewish audience. He refers to the O.T. 99 times. Sometimes you have to understand that the O.T. is a presage to the New.
In the sense that there are sign in the O.T. Some are a bit of a stretch.

Take My Son Out of Egypt does refer to Israel. But it also refers to when Jesus, as a child, was taken out of Egypt by his parents after they had lived there, maybe a few years. So are you saying this was made up just to fulfill the O.T. idea? Or do you not accept that it could mean two different things?

What about all the Davidic prophecies. They were meant for David’s son, Solomon. But they also could mean Jesus and in fact they were completed by Jesus. I’m thinking of all the Psalm prophecies for instance.

What about Isaiah 9:7 to Luke 1:32,33.

Also, let’s remember that there were two Messiah’s mentioned in the Tanakh. The Suffering Servant and the Conquering King. The first was the first time Jesus appeared, the second will be fulfilled at His second coming.

Anyway, here is a post, I think I may have a second one and will check:

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

In the bible I have on my desk right now, there are 44 prophecies fulfilled; i just counted them. There are more. I’ve never seen all of them listed at the same time although I’m sure you could find this somewhere on the net.

The fact the he didn’t set up an earthly kingdom in a literal sense is what holds the Jews back even today. Also, they say the temple has to be rebuilt before He could come (first time for them) so that’s holding them back too - although many Jews do accept Jesus as Messiah - Messianic Jews. You must know that they accept Jesus but maintain their Jewish customs.

We don’t know for sure what God has in mind for us. We have to accept that he’s doing everything just right. Many ask me why Jesus waited till the year 6 or 7 B.C. (approx) before coming to us in human form. Turns out that God has the timing and the timing was right.

Apparently the earthly kingdom is not to be for now but for when Jesus returns the second time. Remember when he was talking to Nicodemus in the garden outside Jerusalem? Jesus told him that the Kingdom is all around but you have to believe to see it. I do believe that Jesus was sent to set up a spiritual kingdom, and the earthly kingdom will not appear until the end of the world. (John 3:1)

Do you realize the chances of fulfilling more than 1 or 2 prophecies? All the prophecies He fulfilled would be like filling the state of Texas with silver coins a few inches in height. Putting one gold coin in there somewhere and then finding it. These are the same chances as Jesus fulfilling all the prophecies He did.

So we can’t worry about God’s timing. Or how He does things. Which is basically what your asking here. I think.

Fran

I agree on God’s timing. Jesus waited the opportune time to ask the apostles who do you say that I am Matthew 16:15. Peter announced you are the Christ Matthew 16:16. Christ means “anointed one” or the Messiah in Greek.

There is a season for everything, a time for every occupation under heaven:
A time for giving birth, a time for dying; a time for planting, a time for uprooting what has been planted.
A time for killing, a time for healing; a time for knocking down, a time for building.
A time for tears, a time for laughter; a time for mourning, a time for dancing.
Ecclesiastical 3: 1-4

We can never know God’s timing to do anything but we can be prepared forever happens.

Here is a list of all the Biblical Prophecies on the Messiah:
thecatholictreasurechest.com/prof.htm

 

[myway]

I’m going to post some more stuff I had written on a different thread - just not to duplicate.

I’m doing Mathew in a bible study here right now. I picked this gospel because it’s the most Jewish and because Mathew was addressing a Jewish audience. He refers to the O.T. 99 times. Sometimes you have to understand that the O.T. is a presage to the New.
In the sense that there are sign in the O.T. Some are a bit of a stretch.

Take My Son Out of Egypt does refer to Israel. But it also refers to when Jesus, as a child, was taken out of Egypt by his parents after they had lived there, maybe a few years. So are you saying this was made up just to fulfill the O.T. idea? Or do you not accept that it could mean two different things?

What about all the Davidic prophecies. They were meant for David’s son, Solomon. But they also could mean Jesus and in fact they were completed by Jesus. I’m thinking of all the Psalm prophecies for instance.

What about Isaiah 9:7 to Luke 1:32,33.

Also, let’s remember that there were two Messiah’s mentioned in the Tanakh. The Suffering Servant and the Conquering King. The first was the first time Jesus appeared, the second will be fulfilled at His second coming.

Anyway, here is a post, I think I may have a second one and will check:

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

In the bible I have on my desk right now, there are 44 prophecies fulfilled; i just counted them. There are more. I’ve never seen all of them listed at the same time although I’m sure you could find this somewhere on the net.

The fact the he didn’t set up an earthly kingdom in a literal sense is what holds the Jews back even today. Also, they say the temple has to be rebuilt before He could come (first time for them) so that’s holding them back too - although many Jews do accept Jesus as Messiah - Messianic Jews. You must know that they accept Jesus but maintain their Jewish customs.

We don’t know for sure what God has in mind for us. We have to accept that he’s doing everything just right. Many ask me why Jesus waited till the year 6 or 7 B.C. (approx) before coming to us in human form. Turns out that God has the timing and the timing was right.

Apparently the earthly kingdom is not to be for now but for when Jesus returns the second time. Remember when he was talking to Nicodemus in the garden outside Jerusalem? Jesus told him that the Kingdom is all around but you have to believe to see it. I do believe that Jesus was sent to set up a spiritual kingdom, and the earthly kingdom will not appear until the end of the world. (John 3:1)

Do you realize the chances of fulfilling more than 1 or 2 prophecies? All the prophecies He fulfilled would be like filling the state of Texas with silver coins a few inches in height. Putting one gold coin in there somewhere and then finding it. These are the same chances as Jesus fulfilling all the prophecies He did.

So we can’t worry about God’s timing. Or how He does things. Which is basically what your asking here. I think.

Fran

I agree on God’s timing. Jesus waited the opportune time to ask the apostles who do you say that I am Matthew 16:15. Peter announced you are the Christ Matthew 16:16. Christ means “anointed one” or the Messiah in Greek.

There is a season for everything, a time for every occupation under heaven:
A time for giving birth, a time for dying; a time for planting, a time for uprooting what has been planted.
A time for killing, a time for healing; a time for knocking down, a time for building.
A time for tears, a time for laughter; a time for mourning, a time for dancing.
Ecclesiastical 3: 1-4

We can never know God’s timing to do anything but we can be prepared forever happens.

Here is a list of all the Biblical Prophecies on the Messiah:

thecatholictreasurechest.com/prof.htm

This list based on a Catholic’s point of view.