Some epistemic concerns

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VeritasLuxMea

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By no means do I consider myself an expert. Rather, all I can say is that I have spent much of my short life investigating this issue.

I’m often stuck wondering whether people who say, “I believe in God” are suffering from category confusion. I theorize that this may go back to the phrases “faith” or “faith in God,” which I think must have meant something far different to the Bible writers than it does in our vernacular. When the Bible writers use words equivalent to “faith” or “faith in God,” the best I can tell is that they’re coming from a baseline assumption A) God of Abraham exists to a conclusion B) I will TRUST that the God of Abraham is just and righteous, though I may not understand its ways.

But the mainstream Catholic, it would seem, is using the words “I believe in God” to imply meaning M) I accept upon evidence the truth claim that the God of Abraham exists.

How it could be possible for these people to have come to this conclusion, I don’t know, since the average Catholic I’ve met: 1) can’t even give a rough approximation of the meaning of the trinity (meaning they haven’t gotten the slightest grasp on Christian philosophy. I had a Catholic friend who accused me of being a heretic and the most they could tell me about the trinity was: ‘well, it’s uh… Father, Son and uh… Holy Ghost?’), 2) hasn’t opened a Bible on their own in their entire life. Which is just plain sad.

(Note: this is not a jab at my fellow Catholics, but rather, what I find to be the case by way of experience. My interactions may not be representative of the entire community, but it wouldn’t surprise me at all.)

Therefore, if the typical Catholic does mean “I accept truth claim M based upon evidence,” by saying the words “I believe in God,” then they are either lying or woefully ignorant.

It is difficult enough to support truth claim M with 50 years of hardworking research and dedication, let alone X amount of years of religious ed (which is fine, but fundamentally you cannot grasp the secrets of the universe in your spare time once a week. Let’s be honest.)

The second source of support for the truth claim “God of Abraham exists” would be an ignorance of evidence, but reliance on the experts of the Church. Ok, this is not a support so much as it is an assumption that support exists somewhere and is inaccessible to the average Catholic.

On it’s face, this sounds perfectly acceptable. We do this all the time: we defer to doctors, mechanics and others on their field of expertise. Plus. the scholars of the Church, past and present, are some of the more brilliant minds in human history, so certainly they belong in that category and more.

Now the problem that we face here, however, is that whereas there is nearly universal agreement in the fields of medicine and automotive repair, there is nowhere even near as much agreement in religious and spiritual fields. The best we have is perhaps a majority of those in the field being monotheistic (with Hindus, Buddhists, Confuscists, animists and others representing the minority conclusion of polytheism/non-theism/etc.)

Therefore, the average Catholic is left without epistemic justification (or something approximating it) here as well, because there is no expert consensus.

Next we can move on to the evidence of spiritual experience. Here we are presented with the following problems. First, that such experiences should never lead us to a conclusion, no matter what spiritual claim we are making. We know that the brain performs psychological tricks like this (see: placebo effect.) So this is not going to provide epistemic justification. Second, there are thousands of other belief structures claiming spiritual experiences. That doesn’t mean that one cannot be “true” and all others “false.” However, while we can all believe that the spiritual experiences of other faiths are invalid, in this case we cannot merely dismiss them out of hand, since to do so would be to dismiss Catholic experiences at the same time.

Therefore, I almost wonder whether the category confusion isn’t mistaking, “I have evidence to support truth claim M” for “There is a paradigm which I have accepted, pending evidence.”

The solution? It’s not about abandoning Catholicism:
  1. It’s about, if you, like me, “feel” Catholicism is justified then go out and actually do the justification!
  2. It’s about validating the truth, and if the truth is Catholicism, then it’s about validating Catholicism.
  3. It’s about integrity. If you consider the creation of the universe, the nature of man, good and evil, etc. to be important elements of reality to study then DO IT! If that is the kind of person you are, then don’t be a hypocrite by falling back on unjustified beliefs! To do otherwise when that is the type of person that God made you into is, using a word incorrectly, “blasphemous” IMO.
  4. It’s about having a MEANINGFUL faith that you’ve discovered, rather than a possibly valid, possibly invalid one you’ve accidentally inherited.
So I suggest: be short in judgment, and fervent in curiosity. For God’s world holds wonders for us all to find.
 
I think you put your finger on something very interesting. What is it, exactly, that the majority of believers have wrt to their faith? What is the nature of the faith if the majority of believers simply do not have the capability to investigate the preliminaries of faith (the existence of God, the fact of Revelation, etc.)? Good questions.
 
I think you put your finger on something very interesting. What is it, exactly, that the majority of believers have wrt to their faith? What is the nature of the faith if the majority of believers simply do not have the capability to investigate the preliminaries of faith (the existence of God, the fact of Revelation, etc.)? Good questions.
Right, because essentially then it becomes a matter of, “to which religion does your family belong?” which is just a downright absurd way to determine truth. If that’s the case then it is Russian Roulette.

I have tried explaining this to people, but have been turned away. I find it very frustrating that no one will hear me on this issue, because I do consider it to be an important concern.

I have reached a preliminary conclusion, which is that the average religious person (regardless of religion) does not have epistemic justification. Perhaps I will consult with the Pastor to conduct a Bible study group or some such thing.
 
By no means do I consider myself an expert. Rather, all I can say is that I have spent much of my short life investigating this issue.

I’m often stuck wondering whether people who say, “I believe in God” are suffering from category confusion. I theorize that this may go back to the phrases “faith” or “faith in God,” which I think must have meant something far different to the Bible writers than it does in our vernacular. When the Bible writers use words equivalent to “faith” or “faith in God,” the best I can tell is that they’re coming from a baseline assumption A) God of Abraham exists to a conclusion B) I will TRUST that the God of Abraham is just and righteous, though I may not understand its ways.

But the mainstream Catholic, it would seem, is using the words “I believe in God” to imply meaning M) I accept upon evidence the truth claim that the God of Abraham exists.
Most Catholics I know would state that they believe in Jesus Christ as their savior as their statement of faith in the Trinitarian God rather than refer to the God of Abraham.
 
By no means do I consider myself an expert. Rather, all I can say is that I have spent much of my short life investigating this issue.

I’m often stuck wondering whether people who say, “I believe in God” are suffering from category confusion. I theorize that this may go back to the phrases “faith” or “faith in God,” which I think must have meant something far different to the Bible writers than it does in our vernacular. When the Bible writers use words equivalent to “faith” or “faith in God,” the best I can tell is that they’re coming from a baseline assumption A) God of Abraham exists to a conclusion B) I will TRUST that the God of Abraham is just and righteous, though I may not understand its ways.

But the mainstream Catholic, it would seem, is using the words “I believe in God” to imply meaning M) I accept upon evidence the truth claim that the God of Abraham exists.
{snip}
This part of your post suggests to me that you have not read Pope Benedict XIV book, Introduction to Christianity. I found it quite enlightening with regard finding out what Catholics ought to mean when they say “I believe”. He uses almost 100 pages coaxing a lot of insight out of this phrase. I highly recommend this book.
 
Since the triune nature of God cannot be understood fully, we know that the statement:

I believe in God, the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost

is a simple statement of belief. Now if you study the trinity and the ramifications for many years, you will understand what it means to believe in God much better than that initial conception, but to one who understands to a much greater extent (say an angel) your statement of believe is just as naive as the statement I have given above.

Believe and know that you do not know fully.
 
This part of your post suggests to me that you have not read Pope Benedict XIV book, Introduction to Christianity. I found it quite enlightening with regard finding out what Catholics ought to mean when they say “I believe”. He uses almost 100 pages coaxing a lot of insight out of this phrase. I highly recommend this book.
👍🙂
 
By no means do I consider myself an expert. Rather, all I can say is that I have spent much of my short life investigating this issue.

I’m often stuck wondering whether people who say, “I believe in God” are suffering from category confusion. I theorize that this may go back to the phrases “faith” or “faith in God,” which I think must have meant something far different to the Bible writers than it does in our vernacular. When the Bible writers use words equivalent to “faith” or “faith in God,” the best I can tell is that they’re coming from a baseline assumption A) God of Abraham exists to a conclusion B) I will TRUST that the God of Abraham is just and righteous, though I may not understand its ways.

But the mainstream Catholic, it would seem, is using the words “I believe in God” to imply meaning M) I accept upon evidence the truth claim that the God of Abraham exists.

How it could be possible for these people to have come to this conclusion, I don’t know, since the average Catholic I’ve met: 1) can’t even give a rough approximation of the meaning of the trinity (meaning they haven’t gotten the slightest grasp on Christian philosophy. I had a Catholic friend who accused me of being a heretic and the most they could tell me about the trinity was: ‘well, it’s uh… Father, Son and uh… Holy Ghost?’), 2) hasn’t opened a Bible on their own in their entire life. Which is just plain sad.

(Note: this is not a jab at my fellow Catholics, but rather, what I find to be the case by way of experience. My interactions may not be representative of the entire community, but it wouldn’t surprise me at all.)

Therefore, if the typical Catholic does mean “I accept truth claim M based upon evidence,” by saying the words “I believe in God,” then they are either lying or woefully ignorant.

It is difficult enough to support truth claim M with 50 years of hardworking research and dedication, let alone X amount of years of religious ed (which is fine, but fundamentally you cannot grasp the secrets of the universe in your spare time once a week. Let’s be honest.)

The second source of support for the truth claim “God of Abraham exists” would be an ignorance of evidence, but reliance on the experts of the Church. Ok, this is not a support so much as it is an assumption that support exists somewhere and is inaccessible to the average Catholic.

On it’s face, this sounds perfectly acceptable. We do this all the time: we defer to doctors, mechanics and others on their field of expertise. Plus. the scholars of the Church, past and present, are some of the more brilliant minds in human history, so certainly they belong in that category and more.

Now the problem that we face here, however, is that whereas there is nearly universal agreement in the fields of medicine and automotive repair, there is nowhere even near as much agreement in religious and spiritual fields. The best we have is perhaps a majority of those in the field being monotheistic (with Hindus, Buddhists, Confuscists, animists and others representing the minority conclusion of polytheism/non-theism/etc.)

Therefore, the average Catholic is left without epistemic justification (or something approximating it) here as well, because there is no expert consensus.

Next we can move on to the evidence of spiritual experience. Here we are presented with the following problems. First, that such experiences should never lead us to a conclusion, no matter what spiritual claim we are making. We know that the brain performs psychological tricks like this (see: placebo effect.) So this is not going to provide epistemic justification. Second, there are thousands of other belief structures claiming spiritual experiences. That doesn’t mean that one cannot be “true” and all others “false.” However, while we can all believe that the spiritual experiences of other faiths are invalid, in this case we cannot merely dismiss them out of hand, since to do so would be to dismiss Catholic experiences at the same time.

Therefore, I almost wonder whether the category confusion isn’t mistaking, “I have evidence to support truth claim M” for “There is a paradigm which I have accepted, pending evidence.”

The solution? It’s not about abandoning Catholicism:
  1. It’s about, if you, like me, “feel” Catholicism is justified then go out and actually do the justification!
  2. It’s about validating the truth, and if the truth is Catholicism, then it’s about validating Catholicism.
  3. It’s about integrity. If you consider the creation of the universe, the nature of man, good and evil, etc. to be important elements of reality to study then DO IT! If that is the kind of person you are, then don’t be a hypocrite by falling back on unjustified beliefs! To do otherwise when that is the type of person that God made you into is, using a word incorrectly, “blasphemous” IMO.
  4. It’s about having a MEANINGFUL faith that you’ve discovered, rather than a possibly valid, possibly invalid one you’ve accidentally inherited.
So I suggest: be short in judgment, and fervent in curiosity. For God’s world holds wonders for us all to find.
So basically what you’re saying is, “Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have” (1 Peter 3:15)? 🙂

I’ve faced some of the same frustrations with my family (who are Christians but not Catholics). They are great people but are content with so little. They have a personal relationship with Jesus, and that is basically the beginning, the middle and the end of their thought process. “We believe because…well, that’s just what we believe.” I could be wrong, but I think curiosity is almost seen as dangerous, like it might end in catastrophe. I mean look at me, I started asking questions and became a Catholic. Catastrophic.
 
It appears that many who profess belief in God know nothing of God.He’s just some higher being.If one professes he knows God but doesn’t know Jesus he doesn’t know God.its just his own creation of what he believes God is.Jesus was the only person who really related to man God’s invisible nature anad how He wanted to be served.All people of various faiths may pray to God but they only pray to the Jesus in reality If they haven’t rejected Him.One might pray to God to help them believe in Jesus but since God is all 3 persons their actually praying to Jesus to help them believe in Him.
 
It appears that many who profess belief in God know nothing of God.He’s just some higher being.If one professes he knows God but doesn’t know Jesus he doesn’t know God.its just his own creation of what he believes God is.Jesus was the only person who really related to man God’s invisible nature anad how He wanted to be served.All people of various faiths may pray to God but they only pray to the Jesus in reality If they haven’t rejected Him.One might pray to God to help them believe in Jesus but since God is all 3 persons their actually praying to Jesus to help them believe in Him.
Odd statement from a Catholic. Almost every prayer in every liturgy of the Church is directed to the Father, not to the Son. It is the Holy Spirit that teaches us to pray, through the Son to the Father.

Listen to the words in the mass. The entire Eucharistic Prayer is to the Father. All the prayers around the Lord’s Prayer is to the Father. And you are probably familiar with how we end our prayers:

Through our Lord Jesus Christ, your Son, Who lives and reigns with you in the unity of the Holy Ghost, one God for ever and ever. Amen
 
Odd statement from a Catholic. Almost every prayer in every liturgy of the Church is directed to the Father, not to the Son. It is the Holy Spirit that teaches us to pray, through the Son to the Father.

Listen to the words in the mass. The entire Eucharistic Prayer is to the Father. All the prayers around the Lord’s Prayer is to the Father. And you are probably familiar with how we end our prayers:

Through our Lord Jesus Christ, your Son, Who lives and reigns with you in the unity of the Holy Ghost, one God for ever and ever. Amen
I don’t know what your opinion of Mother Angelica is but she devoted a program to the study of the Trinity.According to Her when we pray to anyone person of the Trinity we prayer to all 3.She says the Father is like the mind of God,the Son was like the voice or word of God,The HS like something else(sorry can’t remember).But when you pray to the Father all 3 persons hear you and all 3 can answer the same prayers.myself I wasn’t real clear on her meaning.Personally i do pray to the HS for wisdom,understanding,and knowledge and the fire of love.I understand that you pray to each separately for different things.Perhaps your right.Maybe I misunderstood her message.I was quite busy at the time.I finished reading your post and I agree that Im in error.Thanks for that information.
 
I don’t know what your opinion of Mother Angelica is but she devoted a program to the study of the Trinity.According to Her when we pray to anyone person of the Trinity we prayer to all 3.She says the Father is like the mind of God,the Son was like the voice or word of God,The HS like something else(sorry can’t remember).But when you pray to the Father all 3 persons hear you and all 3 can answer the same prayers.myself I wasn’t real clear on her meaning.Personally i do pray to the HS for wisdom,understanding,and knowledge and the fire of love.I understand that you pray to each separately for different things.Perhaps your right.Maybe I misunderstood her message.I was quite busy at the time.I finished reading your post and I agree that Im in error.Thanks for that information.
I would not say that you are in error. Only that your singular regard for the person of Jesus was exaggerated. We do, in the Mass and elsewhere, pray to Jesus. And I also pray to the HS for his gifts. An exaggeration is not an error, it is often-times used to make a point.

I also agree with your understanding of the unity of the trinity. When we pray to one, all hear and can answer. Some claim we need to pray more to the HS because ‘he is the neglected member of the trinity’. Since he was sent to guide us and teach us to pray, is more an advocate, helping us to pray. Jesus told us to ask in his name, again a conduit to the Father. And so, our prayers are rightly and most often directed to the Father, but all are heard and responded to by the trinity.
 
By no means do I consider myself an expert. Rather, all I can say is that I have spent much of my short life investigating this issue.

I’m often stuck wondering whether people who say, “I believe in God” are suffering from category confusion. I theorize that this may go back to the phrases “faith” or “faith in God,” which I think must have meant something far different to the Bible writers than it does in our vernacular. When the Bible writers use words equivalent to “faith” or “faith in God,” the best I can tell is that they’re coming from a baseline assumption A) God of Abraham exists to a conclusion B) I will TRUST that the God of Abraham is just and righteous, though I may not understand its ways.

But the mainstream Catholic, it would seem, is using the words “I believe in God” to imply meaning M) I accept upon evidence the truth claim that the God of Abraham exists.

How it could be possible for these people to have come to this conclusion, I don’t know, since the average Catholic I’ve met: 1) can’t even give a rough approximation of the meaning of the trinity (meaning they haven’t gotten the slightest grasp on Christian philosophy. I had a Catholic friend who accused me of being a heretic and the most they could tell me about the trinity was: ‘well, it’s uh… Father, Son and uh… Holy Ghost?’), 2) hasn’t opened a Bible on their own in their entire life. Which is just plain sad.

(Note: this is not a jab at my fellow Catholics, but rather, what I find to be the case by way of experience. My interactions may not be representative of the entire community, but it wouldn’t surprise me at all.)

Therefore, if the typical Catholic does mean “I accept truth claim M based upon evidence,” by saying the words “I believe in God,” then they are either lying or woefully ignorant.

It is difficult enough to support truth claim M with 50 years of hardworking research and dedication, let alone X amount of years of religious ed (which is fine, but fundamentally you cannot grasp the secrets of the universe in your spare time once a week. Let’s be honest.)

The second source of support for the truth claim “God of Abraham exists” would be an ignorance of evidence, but reliance on the experts of the Church. Ok, this is not a support so much as it is an assumption that support exists somewhere and is inaccessible to the average Catholic.

On it’s face, this sounds perfectly acceptable. We do this all the time: we defer to doctors, mechanics and others on their field of expertise. Plus. the scholars of the Church, past and present, are some of the more brilliant minds in human history, so certainly they belong in that category and more.

Now the problem that we face here, however, is that whereas there is nearly universal agreement in the fields of medicine and automotive repair, there is nowhere even near as much agreement in religious and spiritual fields. The best we have is perhaps a majority of those in the field being monotheistic (with Hindus, Buddhists, Confuscists, animists and others representing the minority conclusion of polytheism/non-theism/etc.)

Therefore, the average Catholic is left without epistemic justification (or something approximating it) here as well, because there is no expert consensus.

Next we can move on to the evidence of spiritual experience. Here we are presented with the following problems. First, that such experiences should never lead us to a conclusion, no matter what spiritual claim we are making. We know that the brain performs psychological tricks like this (see: placebo effect.) So this is not going to provide epistemic justification. Second, there are thousands of other belief structures claiming spiritual experiences. That doesn’t mean that one cannot be “true” and all others “false.” However, while we can all believe that the spiritual experiences of other faiths are invalid, in this case we cannot merely dismiss them out of hand, since to do so would be to dismiss Catholic experiences at the same time.

Therefore, I almost wonder whether the category confusion isn’t mistaking, “I have evidence to support truth claim M” for “There is a paradigm which I have accepted, pending evidence.”

The solution? It’s not about abandoning Catholicism:
  1. It’s about, if you, like me, “feel” Catholicism is justified then go out and actually do the justification!
  2. It’s about validating the truth, and if the truth is Catholicism, then it’s about validating Catholicism.
  3. It’s about integrity. If you consider the creation of the universe, the nature of man, good and evil, etc. to be important elements of reality to study then DO IT! If that is the kind of person you are, then don’t be a hypocrite by falling back on unjustified beliefs! To do otherwise when that is the type of person that God made you into is, using a word incorrectly, “blasphemous” IMO.
  4. It’s about having a MEANINGFUL faith that you’ve discovered, rather than a possibly valid, possibly invalid one you’ve accidentally inherited.
So I suggest: be short in judgment, and fervent in curiosity. For God’s world holds wonders for us all to find.
Faith is considered a theological virtue in Catholicism, and as such it’s said to be of supernatural origin. It consists of the truth claims proposed by the Church* and* the ability, via grace, to believe in those claims. Some of those claims may also be supported by evidence, but evidence can only take one so far. The resurrection, for example, is impossible to prove strictly via rational means alone. Hope is the theological virtue by which we place our confidence in those same claims/promises.

If we needed 50 years of research in order to believe anyway, then most people who’ve lived would never even have the opportunity to come to faith.
 
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