Some examples of ECF's (spanning from AD 235 to AD 733).....

[Richard_Kastner]

Luke 2 gets into “Mary, full of grace” one can not have the stain of sin and be “FULL” of grace, grace being holiness. Sin is not holy. Your problem is that you are trying to find the exact words. You, like most Protestants and even Catholics today, don’t understand these things well enough to make the claims you do make. Scripture tells you not to isolate yourself from the teachers, yet you do. Well meaning as it may be it’s still incorrect and goes against what the bible tells us to do. Your trying to pull a double standard from what I can see. Believe what I say becuase it’s not in the scripture and then say I don’t believe that is what it means, when its clear.

You say I don’t understand these things. Pblo, what do you think grace is? First of all the passage of scripture you allude to is in Luke 1. Here is how the Douay Rheims bible puts it.
Luke1
[26] And in the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God into a city of Galilee, called Nazareth, [27] To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary. [28] And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. [29] Who having heard, was troubled at his saying, and thought with herself what manner of salutation this should be. [30] And the angel said to her: Fear not, Mary, **for thou hast found grace with God. **

Here is how the KJV puts it.
Luke1
26And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
27To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary.
28And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
29And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.
30And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.

So, what the Douay Rheims bible translates as “grace” the King James translates as favour. I’m not sure why you think that having God’s favour would make her sinless, especially since she is not the only one to have God’s favour or grace.

Romans 11
1I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
3Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Eph.2
5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

The grace or unmerited favour of which the angel told Mary that she was full was the UNMERITED GIFT OF SALVATION that the Father gave to ALL MANKIND. This gift is clearly expressed in Jn. 3
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Mary along with every other BELIEVER was/is a benifactor of that grace because and only because she accepted the GIFT, GRACE of forgiveness of her/their sins because of “that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.” Luke1:35

 

[KathleenGee]

PbloPicasso,

God bless you for your deeply felt post and comments with substance. God is leading you in grace. We all have our blind spots.

 

[KathleenGee]

William,

Thank you and you are right. We are dealing with the spirits of unbelief and like Pblo Picasso said, this anti-Catholic propaganda is very strong here in the USA.

I told my pastor I am on CAF and he cringes because no one can reach or help people here. The only case may be lurkers who are searching the truth.

Jesus said that those who receive His body and blood will receive eternal life. I also know that Catholics are to hold up to charity, and our judgment will not come for our adherence to our Catholic faith, but to our adherence to charity in our Catholic faith.

I witness the new threads with the same issues come up being debated by the same people....I see it as another propaganda tool to keep people in bondage from seeking and finding the truth in our Catholic faith.  People are free to believe or disbelieve.

A priest told us to consider it a privilege from God we did not earn for having faith in the Eucharist. Christ had many followers who left Him shortly before the Last Supper.

So that is why I pray for people who come to CAF.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Richard,

Again you are not showing me reference that Mary’s flesh was sinful. You are not connecting either to Scripture that Jesus was like us in all things but sin.

How could Jesus receive sinless flesh from a human being, an inheritor of original sin?

We are sinners because we commit sins not because they are passed on to us. Ez.18
20The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

How do you explain the Angel Gabriel then that in God all things are possible…

I think you have mixed up some words of Jesus with Gabriel.
Matt.19
25When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
26But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

Is it not impossible for God to create Mary without sin at her conception?..if for the sole mission as being the human means to bring His son into the world???

Of coarse it’s possible with God, but there is no evidence that He did. Quite the contrary, as I have shown in Rom.8:3 that He did not.

 

[benidict]

i couldnt agree more Kathleen. it truly is a spirit of unbelief. Mary was typified in the o.t. the promise of her was fullfilled in the n.t. She is also known as the new Eve. why? up until the fall, the first Eve was Sinless. she when tested failed, and ate of the forbidden fruit. the New Eve, when adressed by the angel. passed Her test. she said Yes. she is the fullfillment of the Ark of the Covenant. there is no other person that fits the bill. there is so much evidence in the o.t., the n.t. and the early C.F. that to disbelieve it, is to deny the scriptures, and sacred tradition. that being said, i believe it takes God to reveal this to a person. all the evidence will do no good. you are right. we should pray for those who disbelieve this precious truth from the bible, and tradition. Peace to you and yours.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Of coarse it’s possible with God, but there is no evidence that He did. Quite the contrary, as I have shown in Rom.8:3 that He did not.

Richard,

You keep maintaining an interpretation of Romans 8:3 and I’ve asked a few times if you would be so kind as to share Bible commentaries, ECFs, or other sources that support the interpretation you are stating. I am very interested in knowing if this is just one person’s interpretation, or a more widespread interpretation shared by others.

 

[wmscott]

Richard,

You keep maintaining an interpretation of Romans 8:3 and I’ve asked a few times if you would be so kind as to share Bible commentaries, ECFs, or other sources that support the interpretation you are stating. I am very interested in knowing if this is just one person’s interpretation, or a more widespread interpretation shared by others.

Hi Prodigal Son1, the problem is that Richard can’t produce any credible interpretations other than his own personal fallible interpretations. Everything he has stated to try and discredit the Blessed Mother is based solely on his opinions and carries no authority what so ever. The problem is that he is operating outside any Authentic Authoritative teaching of Sacred Scripture.

 

[PbloPicasso]

Hi Prodigal Son1, the problem is that Richard can’t produce any credible interpretations other than his own personal fallible interpretations. Everything he has stated to try and discredit the Blessed Mother is based solely on his opinions and carries no authority what so ever. The problem is that he is operating outside any Authentic Authoritative teaching of Sacred Scripture.

This is in a nut shell what I’ve been saying. I said that Richard doesn’t understand simply because his interpretation doesn’t match anything I know, even as a Protestant. Just for clarification, I am Catholic now. But I still prefer to say I’m Christian because of the large Protestant family I’m from. Mom is one of ten children. My wife is one of eight children. All are protestant. My dad’s side of the family are very very ver confused “Catholics” in name only. They participate in Protestant churches and most of my cousins are fallen away Catholics. So, in reality I am now the only practicing Catholic. I’m Catholic by choice, not birth.

 

[wmscott]

This is in a nut shell what I’ve been saying. I said that Richard doesn’t understand simply because his interpretation doesn’t match anything I know, even as a Protestant. Just for clarification, I am Catholic now. But I still prefer to say I’m Christian because of the large Protestant family I’m from. Mom is one of ten children. My wife is one of eight children. All are protestant. My dad’s side of the family are very very ver confused “Catholics” in name only. They participate in Protestant churches and most of my cousins are fallen away Catholics. So, in reality I am now the only practicing Catholic. I’m Catholic by choice, not birth.

I am a convert also; my family is everything from Mormon to Pentecostal to Evangelical. The best thing I can do as a Catholic is to live my faith by example so that they have to take notice of the Christian example that is set before them. I will tell them what I and the Church believes but I refuse to argue with them on what the Bible says because it is always to try and show me how wrong the Catholic Church and I am and that they have got it right. When it gets to that point I usually just smile and pat them on the head like the little lost children that they are. Peace

 

[PbloPicasso]

I am a convert also; my family is everything from Mormon to Pentecostal to Evangelical. The best thing I can do as a Catholic is to live my faith by example so that they have to take notice of the Christian example that is set before them. I will tell them what I and the Church believes but I refuse to argue with them on what the Bible says because it is always to try and show me how wrong the Catholic Church and I am and that they have got it right. When it gets to that point I usually just smile and pat them on the head like the little lost children that they are. Peace

I appreciate your response. But I already do that and it is important to be prepared to tell why we believe what we do. Your response is good, but only in part. Franciscan’s say “preach the gospel always and when necessary use words”. Well, sometimes it becomes necessary to use words. Apologetics by its very nature is debate. You just have to pick your battles. I was solo scriptura and inclined to become a preacher so much that I know scripture well enough to use it to support Catholic teaching. The bible is partly to blame for my conversion to Catholicism. I’ve am a volunteer for the Coming Home Network. It is important to know things to help Protestant ministers, such as myself, to understand the correct Catholic teaching, instead of the misrepresented faith. It is also important to show a “command” knowledge of scripture as well. It shows a deeper desire to come to know God. Unfortunately there are many Catholics that fail to study scripture and even those from Protestant faiths that cling to the typical rhetoric perpetrated by anti-Catholicism.

I already live my Catholic faith. For the most part that is it. But there are those in my family that are more determined. My particular Protestant faith is much different than the ones you’ve mentioned. We were much closer to truth that the one’s you mentioned. I relate more with the Church of Christ than I ever did with the Southern Baptist or Pentecostal factions in my family tree. To long to get into.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I appreciate your response. But I already do that and it is important to be prepared to tell why we believe what we do. Your response is good, but only in part. Franciscan’s say “preach the gospel always and when necessary use words”. Well, sometimes it becomes necessary to use words. Apologetics by its very nature is debate. You just have to pick your battles. I was solo scriptura and inclined to become a preacher so much that I know scripture well enough to use it to support Catholic teaching. The bible is partly to blame for my conversion to Catholicism. I’ve am a volunteer for the Coming Home Network. It is important to know things to help Protestant ministers, such as myself, to understand the correct Catholic teaching, instead of the misrepresented faith. It is also important to show a “command” knowledge of scripture as well. It shows a deeper desire to come to know God. Unfortunately there are many Catholics that fail to study scripture and even those from Protestant faiths that cling to the typical rhetoric perpetrated by anti-Catholicism.

I already live my Catholic faith. For the most part that is it. But there are those in my family that are more determined. My particular Protestant faith is much different than the ones you’ve mentioned. We were much closer to truth that the one’s you mentioned. I relate more with the Church of Christ than I ever did with the Southern Baptist or Pentecostal factions in my family tree. To long to get into.

Thought it appropriate to post here and make it 3 converts to post in a row.

 

[wmscott]

I appreciate your response. But I already do that and it is important to be prepared to tell why we believe what we do. Your response is good, but only in part. Franciscan’s say “preach the gospel always and when necessary use words”. Well, sometimes it becomes necessary to use words. Apologetics by its very nature is debate. You just have to pick your battles. I was solo scriptura and inclined to become a preacher so much that I know scripture well enough to use it to support Catholic teaching. The bible is partly to blame for my conversion to Catholicism. I’ve am a volunteer for the Coming Home Network. It is important to know things to help Protestant ministers, such as myself, to understand the correct Catholic teaching, instead of the misrepresented faith. It is also important to show a “command” knowledge of scripture as well. It shows a deeper desire to come to know God. Unfortunately there are many Catholics that fail to study scripture and even those from Protestant faiths that cling to the typical rhetoric perpetrated by anti-Catholicism.

I already live my Catholic faith. For the most part that is it. But there are those in my family that are more determined. My particular Protestant faith is much different than the ones you’ve mentioned. We were much closer to truth that the one’s you mentioned. I relate more with the Church of Christ than I ever did with the Southern Baptist or Pentecostal factions in my family tree. To long to get into.

PbloPicasso, good points but I just want to clarify, I do not shy away from discussing Sacred Scripture, I rather enjoy discussing them. I just won’t get into heated arguments about them. There are some in my family that live for the arguments and when that happens, reason and sensibility shuts down.

 

[PbloPicasso]

PbloPicasso, good points but I just want to clarify, I do not shy away from discussing Sacred Scripture, I rather enjoy discussing them. I just won’t get into heated arguments about them. There are some in my family that live for the arguments and when that happens, reason and sensibility shuts down.

I know just what you mean. My MIL always tells me “well, ____ you remember me sitting down with you to read the bible”. As if I didn’t already read it. You see, they believe that none of the Catholics read the bible because so many Catholics have told them that we’re not allowed to read it. That’s just not true.

 

[KathleenGee]

I think there really has been a concerted efforts by those ‘Christians’ who have hated the Catholic Church a long time ago, and have said a number of things about our faith and our church.

The pages of the Bible were then scrolled using sheep skin. It took 460 plus sheep to make one Bible. One bible was worth a small fortune because of the expense to make it.

Plus, most people couldn’t read. And – the Oral Tradition of faith has been the main means of passing on the faith to the next generation.

Finally, I myself have found the Mass to be the best ‘teacher’ of Sacred Scripture. You can quote Scripture to a Catholic who basically goes to Mass faithfully, and they can pick up when the Scripture is misquoted and incorrect.

At Mass, the presbyter provides the proper context of the Scripture, and as it is the Living Word of God, we hear the Word of God in context of today, the connection from the past in the Old Testament to the Epistles in the beginning foundation of the Church and the Gospel alive for today, and then made Flesh through the Eucharist, so that the Word of God actually and really becomes for us the Living Word of God.

 

[PbloPicasso]

I think there really has been a concerted efforts by those ‘Christians’ who have hated the Catholic Church a long time ago, and have said a number of things about our faith and our church.

The pages of the Bible were then scrolled using sheep skin. It took 460 plus sheep to make one Bible. One bible was worth a small fortune because of the expense to make it.

Plus, most people couldn’t read. And – the Oral Tradition of faith has been the main means of passing on the faith to the next generation.

Finally, I myself have found the Mass to be the best ‘teacher’ of Sacred Scripture. You can quote Scripture to a Catholic who basically goes to Mass faithfully, and they can pick up when the Scripture is misquoted and incorrect.

At Mass, the presbyter provides the proper context of the Scripture, and as it is the Living Word of God, we hear the Word of God in context of today, the connection from the past in the Old Testament to the Epistles in the beginning foundation of the Church and the Gospel alive for today, and then made Flesh through the Eucharist, so that the Word of God actually and really becomes for us the Living Word of God.

Your accurate presentation of the cost of producing bibles in the light of a time when most people could not even read, reminds me of an analogy that many non-Catholics along with misguided Catholics falling into the trap. If you hear stories about bathroom availability in a thrid world country or developing nation like India we are nearly tramatized at the thought of living without a bathrooms, but in our political correctness admit “oh well, they just haven’t climbed out of that type of existence”. Well, apply that same idea to a western country such as the U.S.A. and you would have a civil war over the scandal of people being forced to live without a toilet. Well, I hate to be the one to educate you but there are still out houses in operation today, mostly in remote areas. My goodness I know of many stories where occupants of appartment housing live without water and utilities because a slum lord fails or refuses to pay the bill or fix the utiliites. I’ve also seen some of those close down.

The same is true about the supposed bible burnings. What most people don’t hear is the fact that many of those bible contained errors (monks misprinted) and to avoid any further misinterpretation they were destroyed. I find that to be a much more charitable things than to hand over bible’s containing error or to give them to those seeking to destroy the Church. Either reason is understandable in context of the society at large at the time. Who would have known that the printing would have gained such a vast momentum to make it possible for bibles to outnumber people without unintended errors. In fact, historians, attorneys, engineers, architects, planners, doctors, etc. all consider who worked on a particular project, research or whatever in making determinations on what to do about the particular work of a “professional” that came before them. The same is true for members of the clergy responsible to God for allowing us to be misled. In fact, I firmly believe that a love of clerics will be begging for God’s mercy on the day of judgment more than those of us subjected to their poor leadership. This is scriptural too. If a monk was known to make numberous errors their transcribing, were discarded to avoid missing any more mistakes. Today, people get fired for too many mistakes. But non-Catholics and misguided Catholics chastise the Church because church leaders trying to do the right thing for the most part (I’m sure anomolies exists).

Hopeffully the cleric (not just presbyter) presents the scripture in the proper context. I’ve heard some reall off the wall homilies in the past, some quite heretical.

 

[Brian_Culliton]

God came to earth in the flesh, as man was of flesh. That is the likeness. It was not about Mary. To narrow it down like that appears to be seeking an answer you want and not what it’s telling us. Show us some Bible commentaries that would agree with you Richard, please?

“Now in another sentence he says that Christ was in the likeness of sinful flesh, not, however, as if He had taken on Him the likeness of the flesh, in the sense of a semblance of body instead of its reality; but he means us to understand likeness to the flesh which sinned, because the flesh of Christ, which committed no sin itself, resembled that which had sinned—resembled it in its nature, but not in the corruption it received from Adam; whence we also affirm that there was in Christ the same flesh as that whose nature in man is sinful. In the flesh, therefore, we say that sin has been abolished, because in Christ that same flesh is maintained without sin, which in man was not maintained without sin.” (Tertullian, On The Flesh of Christ 16)

“For he who holds, without pride and boasting, the true glory (opinion) regarding created things and the Creator, who is the Almighty God of all, and who has granted existence to all; [such an one,] continuing in His love and subjection, and giving of thanks, shall also receive from Him the greater glory of promotion, looking forward to the time when he shall become like Him who died for him, for He, too, was made in the likeness of sinful flesh, to condemn sin, and to cast it, as now a condemned thing, away beyond the flesh, but that He might call man forth into His own likeness, assigning him as [His own] imitator to God, and imposing on him His Father’s law, in order that he may see God, and granting him power to receive the Father; [being] the Word of God who dwelt in man, and became the Son of man, that He might accustom man to receive God, and God to dwell in man, according to the good pleasure of the Father.

On this account, therefore, the Lord Himself, who is Emmanuel from the Virgin, is the sign of our salvation, since it was the Lord Himself who saved them, because they could not be saved by their own instrumentality; and, therefore, when Paul sets forth human infirmity, he says: For I know that there dwells in my flesh no good thing, showing that the good thing of our salvation is not from us, but from God. And again: Wretched man that I am, who shall deliver me from the body of this death? Then he introduces the Deliverer, [saying,] The grace of Jesus Christ our Lord.” (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 3:20)

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

These speak specifically about Mary…

Justin Martyr

[Jesus] became man by the Virgin so that the course that was taken by disobedience in the beginning through the agency of the serpent might be also the very course by which it would be put down. Eve, a virgin and undefiled, conceived the word of the serpent and bore disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy when the angel Gabriel announced to her the glad tidings that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her and the power of the Most High would overshadow her, for which reason the Holy One being born of her is the Son of God. And she replied, “Be it done unto me according to your word” (Luke 1:38) (Dialogue with Trypho 100 [A.D. 155]).

Irenaeus

Consequently, then, Mary the Virgin is found to be obedient, saying, “Behold, 0 Lord, your handmaid; be it done to me according to your word.” Eve . . . who was then still a virgin although she had Adam for a husband — for in paradise they were both naked but were not ashamed; for, having been created only a short time, they had no understanding of the procreation of children . . . having become disobedient [sin], was made the cause of death for herself and for the whole human race; so also Mary, betrothed to a man but nevertheless still a virgin, being obedient [no sin], was made the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. . . . Thus, the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. What the virgin Eve had bound in unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosed through faith (Against Heresies 3:22:24 [A.D. 189]).

 

[PbloPicasso]

Thought it appropriate to post here and make it 3 converts to post in a row.

Don’t know how I missed this, but Awesome!

 

[KathleenGee]

PbloPicasso…

We are supposed to pray for the priests…and yes you are right, they will be held accountable more than the rest of us.

You should read ‘The Church’ by St. Catherine of Siena in her ‘The Dialogues’.

My priest is the one counselling the abuse victims. He is very good keeping us on the straight and narrow of the apostolic faith…also we are rather burned out with parish programs, etc…where people can indirectly get off on tangents…but yes, there are those out there who really need our prayers and penances to restore them in the right way of preaching.

 

[PbloPicasso]

PbloPicasso…

We are supposed to pray for the priests…and yes you are right, they will be held accountable more than the rest of us.

You should read ‘The Church’ by St. Catherine of Siena in her ‘The Dialogues’.

My priest is the one counselling the abuse victims. He is very good keeping us on the straight and narrow of the apostolic faith…also we are rather burned out with parish programs, etc…where people can indirectly get off on tangents…but yes, there are those out there who really need our prayers and penances to restore them in the right way of preaching.

My father is bigger than your father.

Just had to say that. Our pastor, Franciscan Friar, is the priest that turned in that monster up north in the 80’s that molested over 900 boys, the last estimation. The Archbishop tried to bully him into submission but he warned them that it would backfire on them. He’s marvelously faithful priest. He counseled me, seminarian and abuse victim. I’m quite aware that we need to pray for our clergy. We also need to pray for each other and protect the innocent. There is not excuse anymore for being dumb by allowing opportune moments for abuse. I also know that they (“bad” clergy) draw their intimidation factor from their position.