Some good news on a liturgical abuse

[zz912]

We see so many cases of liturgical abuse all around that I thought it might be good to hear some good news. There is a parish near me (I won’t go into specifics to keep the parish confidential) which I attend Mass at maybe 3-4 times a year.

During one mass a few months ago, I saw a very serious liturgical abuse happen. It was enough to make me wait after Mass for the priest to speak with him privately about it. I was direct, but polite in my discussion with him about it. My biggest emphasis was on how the abuse actually decreased the belief in the Real Presence and dishonored Christ. He genuinely hadn’t considered it from that viewpoint. I left our conversation pleasantly, but I was pretty sure the priest had simply blown me off.

Last weekend, I attended Mass there again, expecting to see the same liturgical abuse. But lo and behold, it didn’t happen! The GIRM was followed and most importantly Christ was not dishonored. I could tell that the change was permanent, and had been implemented for at least a couple weeks because the people were familiar with the new routine.

 

[Mintaka]

Yay! And bless you for saying something, and the priest for listening and doing the right thing.

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

Thanks for “fighting” this!

 

[Tarpeian_Rock]

Care to tell us what it was and how it was corrected?

 

[Beryllos]

Well done!

 

[commenter]

We see so many cases of liturgical abuse all around that I thought it might be good to hear some good news. There is a parish near me (I won’t go into specifics to keep the parish confidential) which I attend Mass at maybe 3-4 times a year.

During one mass a few months ago, I saw a very serious liturgical abuse happen. It was enough to make me wait after Mass for the priest to speak with him privately about it. I was direct, but polite in my discussion with him about it. My biggest emphasis was on how the abuse actually decreased the belief in the Real Presence and dishonored Christ. He genuinely hadn’t considered it from that viewpoint. I left our conversation pleasantly, but I was pretty sure the priest had simply blown me off.

Last weekend, I attended Mass there again, expecting to see the same liturgical abuse. But lo and behold, it didn’t happen! The GIRM was followed and most importantly Christ was not dishonored. I could tell that the change was permanent, and had been implemented for at least a couple weeks because the people were familiar with the new routine.

Thank you for your faith action. My impression in my area is that liturgical abuses are greatly reduced, except for campus ministry parishes and a few holdout pastors who are about 70.

 

[ProVobis]

One wonders, however, how many would know a liturgical abuse if they saw one?

I’ve witnessed a lot of creativity in 40 years, liturgical dancing, etc., but nothing I would call liturgical abuse. Not intentional anyway.

 

[DoGodsBidding]

Yay! And bless you for saying something, and the priest for listening and doing the right thing.

 

[RCbkr]

“The Lord is with you” instead of “The Lord be with you” I experienced that recently. Not a huge abuse, but strange to me and I didn’t know if I was supposed to say, “And with your spirit” or not…turns out I was…everyone else knew to do that. Such tweaks are confusing for visitors to a parish.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

One wonders, however, how many would know a liturgical abuse if they saw one?

I’ve witnessed a lot of creativity in 40 years, liturgical dancing, etc., but nothing I would call liturgical abuse. Not intentional anyway.

Oh man… I wish I live somewhere near you so I could say the same thing…
Lucky…

 

[ProVobis]

Oh man… I wish I live somewhere near you so I could say the same thing…
Lucky…

I never said the creativity was all tolerable.

 

[zz912]

Yay! And bless you for saying something, and the priest for listening and doing the right thing.

Thanks, but I was posting more as encouragement to others. I wanted to help strengthen others to bring these issues up so that maybe more abuses can be ended.

Care to tell us what it was and how it was corrected?

I’ll keep it confidential. Jesus said to go privately to your brother and bring up the issue. And if he wouldn’t listen, then you bring in others. Since the priest listened when I brought it up privately, I won’t divulge more info to possibly give away his or the parish’s identity.

I will say this, it was a serious abuse, but it wasn’t done with malice. I think that helped, as they were attempting to be respectful, but the abuse was still wrong and harmful.

Thank you for your faith action. My impression in my area is that liturgical abuses are greatly reduced, except for campus ministry parishes and a few holdout pastors who are about 70.

I hope. Like I said, I was hoping to encourage others to have strength to say something to their priests if they see something amiss. I think it might also be good if people encouraged their dioceses to have workshops for priests on celebrating the Mass, so that abuses can be ended by education.

One wonders, however, how many would know a liturgical abuse if they saw one?

I’ve witnessed a lot of creativity in 40 years, liturgical dancing, etc., but nothing I would call liturgical abuse. Not intentional anyway.

There are serious and not-so-serious abuses. Liturgical dancing is an abuse. The seriousness would depend on the intention and what it entailed. I know that most people wouldn’t recognize an abuse because they don’t know how Mass is supposed to be celebrated, or assume the priest knows the proper way and assumes it is okay.

 

[commenter]

“The Lord is with you” instead of “The Lord be with you” I experienced that recently. Not a huge abuse, but strange to me and I didn’t know if I was supposed to say, “And with your spirit” or not…turns out I was…everyone else knew to do that. Such tweaks are confusing for visitors to a parish.

This is of course not an “abuse” but an annoyance, a problematic one. Telling people “The Lord** is **with you” hints at the old heresy that we are already Christian from the moment we are born, that we don’t need conversion; that we don’t need any blessings from the Mass, we simply recognize our mutual sanctity. It reminds me of (now Episcopalian) Fr. Matt Fox’ theory of “Original Blessing”. He denied Original Sin.

Fr. Mitch Pacwa said that when he is ministering Holy Communion at Mass, when he says “Body of Christ”, some people answer back “Yes, I am”.

Part of a trend.

 

[commenter]

Thanks, but I was posting more as encouragement to others. I wanted to help strengthen others to bring these issues up so that maybe more abuses can be ended.

I’ll keep it confidential. Jesus said to go privately to your brother and bring up the issue. And if he wouldn’t listen, then you bring in others. Since the priest listened when I brought it up privately, I won’t divulge more info to possibly give away his or the parish’s identity.

I will say this, it was a serious abuse, but it wasn’t done with malice. I think that helped, as they were attempting to be respectful, but the abuse was still wrong and harmful.

I hope. Like I said, I was hoping to encourage others to have strength to say something to their priests if they see something amiss. I think it might also be good if people encouraged their dioceses to have workshops for priests on celebrating the Mass, so that abuses can be ended by education.

There are serious and not-so-serious abuses. Liturgical dancing is an abuse. The seriousness would depend on the intention and what it entailed. I know that most people wouldn’t recognize an abuse because they don’t know how Mass is supposed to be celebrated, or assume the priest knows the proper way and assumes it is okay.

I appreciate your discretion here.

 

[thistle]

Thanks, but I was posting more as encouragement to others. I wanted to help strengthen others to bring these issues up so that maybe more abuses can be ended.

**I’ll keep it confidential. ** Jesus said to go privately to your brother and bring up the issue. And if he wouldn’t listen, then you bring in others. Since the priest listened when I brought it up privately, I won’t divulge more info to possibly give away his or the parish’s identity.

I will say this, it was a serious abuse, but it wasn’t done with malice. I think that helped, as they were attempting to be respectful, but the abuse was still wrong and harmful.

I hope. Like I said, I was hoping to encourage others to have strength to say something to their priests if they see something amiss. I think it might also be good if people encouraged their dioceses to have workshops for priests on celebrating the Mass, so that abuses can be ended by education.

There are serious and not-so-serious abuses. Liturgical dancing is an abuse. The seriousness would depend on the intention and what it entailed. I know that most people wouldn’t recognize an abuse because they don’t know how Mass is supposed to be celebrated, or assume the priest knows the proper way and assumes it is okay.

You are not naming the parish or the priest so why won’t you tell us what happened that YOU considered to be an abuse. You are not breaking any confidences by telling us that.

 

[zz912]

You are not naming the parish or the priest so why won’t you tell us what happened that YOU considered to be an abuse. You are not breaking any confidences by telling us that.

Because some people know which diocese and area that I live in. And the particular abuse I have not seen at any other parish in our diocese. So if someone were familiar with the parishes here, they could probably guess which parish it was if they knew which abuse I was talking about. It is very particular and easily noted if you were looking for it.

Like I said, discretion is the better part of valor on this one, as the parish and pastor corrected the abuse, so I don’t wish to possibly tarnish their reputation needlessly (since it has been corrected).

 

[ProVobis]

This is of course not an “abuse” but an annoyance, a problematic one. Telling people “The Lord** is **with you” hints at the old heresy that we are already Christian from the moment we are born,

Do you have a source for this, because that’s the way it’s translated in the Hail Mary, and implied in the Latin and Polish? And it’s most curious to me how in English, so weak with its subjunctives as it is, they decided to keep this subjunctive with seemingly no basis. Contrast that with Pax sit semper vobiscum, where the subjunctive is clear.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Because some people know which diocese and area that I live in. And the particular abuse I have not seen at any other parish in our diocese. So if someone were familiar with the parishes here, they could probably guess which parish it was if they knew which abuse I was talking about. It is very particular and easily noted if you were looking for it.

Like I said, discretion is the better part of valor on this one, as the parish and pastor corrected the abuse, so I don’t wish to possibly tarnish their reputation needlessly (since it has been corrected).

I am proud of your discretion.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

You are not naming the parish or the priest so why won’t you tell us what happened that YOU considered to be an abuse. You are not breaking any confidences by telling us that.

I think it’s important to make sure we are not just trying to get the poster to name it so we can argue over if it rises to your personal interpretation of “abuse”.
What you should be focusing on is this is the playbook for how these types of things should be resolved. Good for the op in handeling it well, good for the priest for being humble and listening to someone.

It’s also possible that someone else raised a ruckus about it or that the bishop got wind of it as well. But just from the information in the op. It reflects well on both the op and the priest.

 

[ProVobis]

There are serious and not-so-serious abuses. Liturgical dancing is an abuse.

As I understand things, it depends on where you are. In Africa, for example, certain “graceful movements” are allowed in processions and the like.

What’s allowed in one diocese may not be allowed in another, on top of the few options which are already prescribed by the translated IGMR for that country.