Some Gospel Questions

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You really have to go a long way out to disbelieve Matthew 27:55-56, which shows that “Mary the mother of James and Joses” was a different “Mary” than Mary the mother of Jesus. The “brothers” in Mark 6:3 are sons of a different “Mary” and are “brothers” to Jesus only in the sense of being kinsmen — just like Scripture calls Lot Abraham’s “brother” (Gen 14:14) even though Lot actually was Abraham’s nephew (Gen 11:27). There was no Hebrew word for cousin, nephew, uncle, etc so the word “brother” was used. Or do you think Lot was Abraham’s “brother”?
The father of James and Joses was Alphaeus; not Joseph. None of the men listed as “brothers” of Jesus in the New Testament have Joseph as their father. If you have never taken the time to do a word-study on this, you really need to do so, because it becomes quite plain, when you list all the verses in order, that Jesus did not have any full-blooded siblings.

The reason the adoption by Joseph incorporates Jesus fully into the Davidic lineage is in order to show us that, when God adopts us by means of the Sacrament of Baptism, we also are fully incorporated into His lineage - this is more than how it is when your best friend’s kid calls you “Aunty” (although there’s nothing the matter with that; it’s certainly closer than just a casual relationship) - this is a real, true, and permanent change in blood-kinship relationship - one that has familial consequences, including the fact that the Saints become our actual brothers and sisters, along with Christ as our brother, and that Mary becomes our actual mother, since Christ is actually our brother, and the Father is actually our Father.
 
You really have to go a “long way out” here in order to disbelieve the Scriptures.

They tell us that Joseph had intercourse with Mary after Jesus was born. They also tell us Jesus had brothers and sisters and names the brothers.

Many times in Scripture, reference is made to James, the Lord’s brother, who was the leader of the first church in Jerusalem. He didn’t believe in Jesus until after the resurrection, but then became the leader of the church; not Peter.

We are told that the Bible is the Word of God and every word in it is true and sufficient for teaching, correction and that no word of it should be changed or nothing added to it.

Yet this post is a very good example. Watch how the RCC attempts to change Scripture to read the way they want it and not the way it was written. You won’t find the changes in the first couple of centuries after Jesus was resurrected, but hundreds of years later as the false doctrines began to be developed. This is a very good example here.

Mary was just a simple young girl, betrothed to Joseph when she was chosen to be the vessel of our Saviour into this world. She was not the “Mother of God” because God always was and always will be. He had no Mother. Only His human nature, by being born into this world required a human Mother.

Jesus warned us of false teachers and those who would fall away from the faith.

Keep reading this post and you will see how it happens…
I love these shotgun blasts, OS.

Where does it say that Joseph had intercourse with Mary? Do you think Matthew says that? Did Michal (one of King David’s wives) have a child the day she died?

Wasn’t James the son of Mary - wife of Cleopas?
 
Many times in Scripture, reference is made to James, the Lord’s brother, who was the leader of the first church in Jerusalem. He didn’t believe in Jesus until after the resurrection, but then became the leader of the church; not Peter.
The Greek word rendered as “brother” can also mean step-brother or nephew. Scripture plainly tells us that Mary was perpetually a virgin.

Ezekiel 44:2. “Then said the LORD unto me; This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall enter in by it; because the LORD, the God of Israel, hath entered in by it, therefore it shall be shut.” Protestants can weasel out of many verses that contradict their invented traditions, but not this, nor James 2.
Watch how the RCC attempts to change Scripture to read the way they want it and not the way it was written. You won’t find the changes in the first couple of centuries after Jesus was resurrected, but hundreds of years later as the false doctrines began to be developed. This is a very good example here.
One, the Catholic Church wrote the Bible.

Two, you’ll note that this is how the verse was understood for 1700 years. Its meaning was altered by anti-Catholic Protestants, who asserted that “until” MUST mean “after which.” This is a result of the flaws in the English language; no such apparatus is seen in the Greek or Latin. This is why Martin Luther and John Calvin agree with us on this issue; because Latin was still the dominant language when they were preaching.
Mary was just a simple young girl, betrothed to Joseph when she was chosen to be the vessel of our Saviour into this world. She was not the “Mother of God” because God always was and always will be. He had no Mother. Only His human nature, by being born into this world required a human Mother.
Elizabeth says in Luke 1:43, filled with the Holy Spirit, “and whence is this to me that the mother of God should come to me?” It is you who are altering the scriptures, not us.

And your propaganda does not infect us, either. No Catholic teaches that Mary created God; only that she bore him in her womb. This is the meaning of theotokos: “God bearer, mother of God,” not “creator of God.”
Jesus warned us of false teachers and those who would fall away from the faith.
Agreed, which is why I’ll never attend the apostate church you receive your propaganda from. I’ll instead follow the Bible and the Church of God, whom Paul calls the pillar of truth (1 Timothy 3:15).
 
Mary was just a simple young girl, betrothed to Joseph when she was chosen to be the vessel of our Saviour into this world. She was not the “Mother of God” because God always was and always will be. He had no Mother. Only His human nature, by being born into this world required a human Mother.
I have a human soul and a human nature. Is my mom my mother? Or is she the mother of my human nature?

I looked at the Gospel of John, chapter 2. It says, “The mother of Jesus was there”, regarding the wedding in Cana. Does your bible say that, or does it say, “The mother’s of Jesus’ human nature was there”?
Jesus warned us of false teachers and those who would fall away from the faith.
Yeah, we call them the beginning of the Protestant Reformation. 😉
 
If you are worried about Catholic bias in dealing with the Matthew and the word “until”, try some Protestants:
Here’s one more quote from Luther:Luther
"It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a Virgin."

And don’t forget Zwingli 😃

Zwingli
"I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin."

The wide-spread Protestant notion that Mary did not remain a virgin is a relatively recent tradition.
 
Here’s one more quote from Luther:Luther
"It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a Virgin."

And don’t forget Zwingli 😃

Zwingli
"I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin."

The wide-spread Protestant notion that Mary did not remain a virgin is a relatively recent tradition.
I agree, the only one’s I’ve found that make this claim are generally the unschooled, unchurched sola scriptura TV evangelist bred fundamentalist. They deny Christ’s divinity often as well, claiming he is “Son only”. They all recite the same retoric, much as they claim they’ve gained this “revelatory truth” directly from the spirit, because as we all know, any boob can understand the bible with the HS as guide. That’s why Proddies now have 35,000 separate all correct doctrine givers.
 
ChadS
What the Church really and truly teaches is that Christ is truly God and truly man. He has two natures that are perfectly united and indivisible. So in that manger 2000 years ago Mary gave birth to -]both/-] his human -]and divine /-]nature. This in no way implies that she had a hand in creating or making his divine nature. -]Through the mystery of the incarnation his divine nature was united perfectly with his human /-]-- hence the title “Mother of God.”
Mother of Jesus is fine but Mother of God is blasphemous!
God was not born. He had no Mother.
 
The Greek word rendered as “brother” can also mean step-brother or nephew. **Scripture plainly tells us that Mary was perpetually a virgin. **

I’m sure you won’t mind listing the Scripture that tells us Mary was perpetually a virgin???

Ezekiel 44:2. “Then said the LORD unto me; This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall enter in by it; because the LORD, the God of Israel, hath entered in by it, therefore it shall be shut.” Protestants can weasel out of many verses that contradict their invented traditions, but not this, nor James 2.

Why don’t you read the entire chapter of Ezekial? You will find that the Lord brought Ezekiel in through the same gate and told him how to let others who qualify in. Are you sure this was Mary’s womb?

One, the Catholic Church wrote the Bible.

No men who were inspired by God wrote the Bible. The church had nothing to do with it.

Two, you’ll note that this is how the verse was understood for 1700 years. Its meaning was altered by anti-Catholic Protestants, who asserted that “until” MUST mean “after which.” This is a result of the flaws in the English language; no such apparatus is seen in the Greek or Latin. This is why Martin Luther and John Calvin agree with us on this issue; because Latin was still the dominant language when they were preaching.

I guess that excuse is as good as any. But the truth is still there in Scripture. And by the way, Martin Luther translated the Greek Bible into German, not the Latin Bible.

Elizabeth says in Luke 1:43, filled with the Holy Spirit, “and whence is this to me that the mother of God should come to me?” It is you who are altering the scriptures, not us.

This is how the Roman Catholic Church works. Please check this verse in every other English Bible and you will see it is Lord and not God that is mentioned here. Your Bible is the only one that reads that way.

And your propaganda does not infect us, either. No Catholic teaches that Mary created God; only that she bore him in her womb. This is the meaning of theotokos: “God bearer, mother of God,” not “creator of God.”

Mary gave birth to the baby Jesus. Not God. You are following an assumption. If Mary gave birth to God, then God died on the cross. Can God die?

Agreed, which is why I’ll never attend the apostate church you receive your propaganda from. I’ll instead follow the Bible and the Church of God, whom Paul calls the pillar of truth (1 Timothy 3:15).
When Paul was on earth, the church was the pillar of truth. Now it is corrupted and teaches false doctrines, according to Scripture.
 
When Paul was on earth, the church was the pillar of truth. Now it is corrupted and teaches false doctrines, according to Scripture.
So Jesus was wrong, OS? Didn’t He promise to be with us (the Church) til the end of the age? Didn’t He promise to send us (the Church) the Advocate to guide us (the Church) in all Truth?

So, you are saying that Scripture has changed - that the Church is no longer the pillar of truth (I believe your words were “corrupted and teaching false doctrines”)? What was True is now False? That’s pretty bold of you, OS.
 
So Jesus was wrong, OS? Didn’t He promise to be with us (the Church) til the end of the age? Didn’t He promise to send us (the Church) the Advocate to guide us (the Church) in all Truth?

So, you are saying that Scripture has changed - that the Church is no longer the pillar of truth (I believe your words were “corrupted and teaching false doctrines”)? What was True is now False? That’s pretty bold of you, OS.
I didn’t word that correctly. I still believe the church is the same as it was then. I just don’t believe the Roman Catholic Church is the same as the early church. Since the Roman Catholic Church didn’t even exist, as we know it today, until the 5th or 6th century. The same church as in apostolic times still exists, God will not let it go away. When the Roman Empire took over the church in the 5th and 6th centuries, it changed it from the apostolic church to something entirely different.
 
I didn’t word that correctly. I still believe the church is the same as it was then. I just don’t believe the Roman Catholic Church is the same as the early church. Since the Roman Catholic Church didn’t even exist, as we know it today, until the 5th or 6th century. The same church as in apostolic times still exists, God will not let it go away. When the Roman Empire took over the church in the 5th and 6th centuries, it changed it from the apostolic church to something entirely different.
You can read the writings of the Didache, St. Ignatius, St. Ireneaus, and St. Justin Martyr and you’ll see just how erroneous this “correction” of yours is.

The Catholic Church of today is the same Catholic Church of Apostolic times. Same doctrines - same beliefs. The only differences are those that are akin to a boy growing up to be a man - same person, just grown some. Do you remember the parable of the mustard seed? That’s the Catholic Church, my friend!
 
Old Scholar:
What the Church really and truly teaches is that Christ is truly God and truly man. He has two natures that are perfectly united and indivisible. So in that manger 2000 years ago Mary gave birth to -]both/-] his human -]and divine /-]nature. This in no way implies that she had a hand in creating or making his divine nature. -]Through the mystery of the incarnation his divine nature was united perfectly with his human /-]-- hence the title “Mother of God.”
I find the way you edited my post very disturbing. You find the title “Mother of God” so offensive that you took pains to eliminate any reference to Jesus’ divine nature at his birth. When did the Word of God become Incarnate? Did it happen sometime after his birth? I find it particularly odd you struck the line “Through the mystery of the incarnation his divine nature was united perfectly with his human.” What’s the sticking point there? Wasn’t it mysterious or wasn’t the union perfect?

The title “Mother of God” was given to Mary by the Council of Ephesus to combat the Nestorian heresy that said one of the same things you are saying – that Mary only gave birth to the human nature of Jesus.

The Council of Ephesus said:
And since the holy Virgin brought forth corporally God made one with flesh according to nature, for this reason we also call her Mother of God, not as if the nature of the Word had the beginning of its existence from the flesh.
For “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was God, and the Word was with God,” and he is the Maker of the ages, coeternal with the Father, and Creator of all; but, as we have already said, since he united to himself hypostatically human nature from her womb, also he subjected himself to birth as man, not as needing necessarily in his own nature birth in time and in these last times of the world, but in order that he might bless the beginning of our existence, and that that which sent the earthly bodies of our whole race to death, might lose its power for the future by his being born of a woman in the flesh. And this: “In sorrow you shall bring forth children,” being removed through him, he showed the truth of that spoken by the prophet, “Strong death swallowed them up, and again God has wiped away every tear from off all faces.” For this cause also we say that he attended, having been called, and also blessed, the marriage in Cana of Galilee, with his holy Apostles in accordance with the economy. We have been taught to hold these things by the holy Apostles and Evangelists, and all the God-inspired Scriptures, and in the true confessions of the blessed Fathers.
To all these your reverence also should agree, and give heed, without any guile. And what it is necessary your reverence should anathematize we have subjoined to our epistle.
Interestingly enough this Council is one of the seven great ecumenical councils that Protestants accept since they laid the foundation for and defined many of the doctrines that all Christians believe and the Reformers didn’t dare tamper with.

ChadS
 
Mary did not bear and give birth to a “nature” - she bore and gave birth to a Person - the Second Person of the Trinity; God. 🙂

It’s absolutely fascinating to me that the only way to deny that Mary is the Mother of God is to fall into the Nestorian heresy, even after the rising and falling of so many different empires, and so many different and new ways of thinking, and so much material progress, between the time of Nestorius and our own time.
 
Mary did not bear and give birth to a “nature” - she bore and gave birth to a Person - the Second Person of the Trinity; God. 🙂

It’s absolutely fascinating to me that the only way to deny that Mary is the Mother of God is to fall into the Nestorian heresy, even after the rising and falling of so many different empires, and so many different and new ways of thinking, and so much material progress, between the time of Nestorius and our own time.
This is exactly what happens when people throw away their history.

They end up making the same mistakes all over again.

That’s why the study of the Early Church Fathers is so important.
 
The title “Mary, Mother of God” that Old Scholar so eloquently described as blasphemous is not meant primarily as a Mariological term. When the Church fathers gave her this title, they were no doubt paying Mary all the due honor and respect she is due. However at its very heart “Mother of God” is Christological. Why? Because at Ephesus the assembled fathers realized that to give Mary that title only reinforced the Church’s understanding of Christ’s human and divine natures. Those that would not give Mary the title “Mother of God,” simply put, cast their lots with Nestorius and other heretics and thereby rejected the Christian understanding of Christ’s nature and the mystery of the incarnation.
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NotWorthy:
This is exactly what happens when people throw away their history.

They end up making the same mistakes all over again.

That’s why the study of the Early Church Fathers is so important.
While I tend to reject the idea that history repeats itself, sadly when it comes to misunderstanding Church teachings or distorting the truth there seems to be no shelf life in regards to regurgitating tired and worn out half-truths and lies. When I was converting and studied Church history more and more I saw that the Church had dealt quite forcefully with many of my previous misconceptions. Not last year or ten years ago or even fifty years ago but in many cases hundreds of years ago or sometimes over a thousand years ago. Yet somehow they keep resurfacing as something untested and new and many continue to see these lies as such. So, NotWorthy I’m in total agreement with you Study the Church Fathers. You won’t be disappointed.

ChadS
 
Do tell, in what year did the Roman Catholic Church first exist?
Marco Polo

You asked about the beginning of the Roman Catholic church. Well the first church established by the apostles began in Palestine, Galilee and Judea. After Jesus came and died and was resurrected, the church center was in Jerusalem. Paul tells us there was no church established in Rome until around 5
6 A.D. The first council of the church was held in Jerusalem and Paul, James and Peter were there. James was the Bishop of the Church there. James, Peter and John were considered “Pillars of the church” according to Scripture.

Churches in Antioch, Alexandria, Corinth, Thessaloníki, Ephesia and in other places began to appear as the apostles traveled throughout the region. Paul eventually made it to Rome and established a church there. But Rome was not the first and was not the headquarters of Christianity. Jerusalem was. In addition, there is no evidence whatever that Peter ever made it to Rome and was not the first Bishop there. Check your Bible and you won’t find it.

When Constantine became Emperor of Rome in 312, he began to transfigure the Roman Empire into the Holy Roman Empire. He began this in 324. He was not in Rome and called the new city he built: Constantinople. He envisioned it as the center of the world. Problem was, the state church of Rome was pagan and Constantine introduced many pagan rites, rituals and ceremonies into the Christian Church, as well as insisting Christians worship certain pagan principles. Worship of Mary was required because the Pagans had a “Mary type” person they worshiped. He instituted the worship of idols and images, because that was paganistic as well. He had the church to follow certain pagan rituals.

It was a short time after this that an attempt was made to make the Bishop of Rome, in charge of the entire church, but that was rejected by most early church fathers. Of course Rome was killing them *** as martyrs anyhow and eventually all the opposition died out. Some of the later fathers still refused to accept a papacy because it was not Biblical and Christ is the Head of the Church, not the Pope, at least according to the Bible.

Shortly thereafter, the Bibles were locked away from the common man and you could not own one. You were subject to death if you did or even read one without approval of the priests. This was a Catholic practice for hundreds of years.

It was people like Martin Luther who consulted the original texts they had that changed the English versions of the Bible. Martin Luther translated from the original Greek and then later King James authorized and English translation. He insisted on translating the Old Testament in Hebrew and the New Testament in the original Greek however. He did not use the Septuagint or the Latin translation. He refused to do so and refused to include the Apocryphal books. After a great deal of pressure from Catholic Bishops however, he listed them but listed them as good for reading and historical values but not to be used for matters of faith or morals. The same type listing the King James Bible gave them.

But do your own studying of RCC history. You won’t be able to find Peter in Rome in the Bible, so he couldn’t have been the first bishop. Paul appointed Bishops there, not Peter. You wont find that there was ever a pope until the 4th or 5th century either. You also won’t find anything in Scripture about the Assumption of Mary, the perpetual virginity of Mary, purgatory, penance, praying to the dead or anything about several other things you have been taught to believe.

May God guide you in yor studies…
 
**
But do your own studying of RCC history. You won’t be able to find Peter in Rome in the Bible, so he couldn’t have been the first bishop. Paul appointed Bishops there, not Peter. You wont find that there was ever a pope until the 4th or 5th century either. **
**OS, I’ve mentioned this to you several times and you continue to ignore me. I’m beginning to think that you don’t like me.

What were Pope Clement and Pope Victor doing if there were no Popes until the 4th or 5th centuries?!?**
You also won’t find anything in Scripture about the Assumption of Mary, the perpetual virginity of Mary, purgatory, penance, praying to the dead or anything about several other things you have been taught to believe.
May God guide you in yor studies…
And may God guide you to introduce any of these topics in separate threads, rather than using the over-used shotgun approach. I’ll show you where the Church has found it in Scripture and in early Church Tradition. By Early Church Tradition, I mean well before the 1500’s. 🙂
 
But do your own studying of RCC history. You won’t be able to find Peter in Rome in the Bible, so he couldn’t have been the first bishop. Paul appointed Bishops there, not Peter. You wont find that there was ever a pope until the 4th or 5th century either. You also won’t find anything in Scripture about the Assumption of Mary, the perpetual virginity of Mary, purgatory, penance, praying to the dead or anything about several other things you have been taught to believe.

May God guide you in yor studies…
I’m not asking you about whether Peter was in Rome. I’m asking when did the Roman Catholic Church begin? Is there a year? A particular event? The first time you said 5th or 6th century and here you have a Pope in the 4th or 5th century.
 
I’m not asking you about whether Peter was in Rome. I’m asking when did the Roman Catholic Church begin? Is there a year? A particular event? The first time you said 5th or 6th century and here you have a Pope in the 4th or 5th century.
I’m telling you, “Jack Chick Monthly” is beginning to get their facts a little messed up! 🙂

And besides, why did Rome feel the need to execute the first 30 or so Popes if there weren’t any Popes? Let’s see, 325AD - 50AD = about 275 years of Christianity in Rome prior to Constantine. 30 Popes are executed within 275 years. That’s about one every 9 years. Just think how many would have been executed if we actually HAD a Pope in Rome! 😉
 
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