Some help for our Protestant friends

[Atemi]

If I’m preaching to the choir, then why the big opposition of the “faith alone” mentality?

I have no opposition to it. It is the very teaching of the Holy Spirit.

If this is all so familiar to you, how can you so vehemently argue a technicality?

A technicality?

I am arguing what the OP actually says. You call it a “technicality.”

If we cannot accept that the OP actually means what it says, then there is really nothing else to talk about.

This was a simple story, a parable, if you will…to relate the way God views our good works.

The RCC teaches that works are necessary for salvation and that they justify men before a Holy God…without which one suffers eternal damnation.

A parable about ice cream that should be about life and death or something just as serious, does damage to the entire illustration. It may sound better, but it does not remain true to the Catholic paradigm.

Not so much an “if…and then” situation

That is exactly the situation forwarded by the OP.

Your problem thus lies with the OP, not with me.

as maybe this alteration… “We’re all going for ice cream later, so I’d like you to have your chores done before that.”

Does that mean they get ice cream whether they do the chores or not?

That is not the Catholic paradigm.

And this thread is not about your personal alterations to the illustration given. My comments were addressed to the illustration forwarded by the OP, not the alternate one in your head.

The bottom line is, that our obedience and humility before God lead us to want to please Him, and that His love for us makes Him want to give us a “treat”.

Agreed.

I really just wanted to point out that you were reading WAAAYYY too much into the story.

That is the entire crux of the story. The entire conclusion.

Ice cream is salvation.

If good works, then…

What then is not ice cream?

It’s all about the correlation between the physical actions of love and the conscious state of “having” faith. The having is not enough. If you have, you will do. He who does not do, does not really have to begin with.

Agreed.

But it is the “have” that justifies men before a Holy God, not the “do.”

This was my major argument, but it seems as though you’d rather talk technicalities and word placement.

No.

I would rather talk about the actual OP rather than anyone’s private alterations to make it more palatable.

As I previously stated, nothing we could do could ever EARN us anything…our debt has been settled.

That is not what the OP points out.

Maybe you can start another thread about our “ice cream” being settled before our “cleaning up our toys” or “eating our vegetables.”

It is our willingness and humility to accept this charity (or love, as oft referred) from God, which determines our salvation.

Agreed.

I agree with most of what you are saying, but that has nothing to do with the illustration that the OP actually supplies.

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[leslierx82]

You know what? You need to do works! Bottom line. The Bible says so. FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD! That’s the whole point. Not faith alone, not works alone, but the synonymous expression of both as one. They are in and of the same. If you do not do works, then your faith is DEAD! True faith presents works inherently. If you insist on taking everything so completely literally, why don’t you start with the Bible?

 

[hope_7]

I guess you would call me a protestant . I do not think you really understand what a protestant doesent understand. when one recieves Jesus Christ as saviour their whole life is changed. They are transformed from the inside out. It is totally a work of God’s grace. You are never the same. Because of the change that God has wrought in you. Yes one has to obey and keep God,
's ways. The old man is done away and the new man is raised in his place. This is according to God’s word.

     What the protestant sees is or what I see is a person that is catholic is baptised at birth and goes through confirmation partakes of first communion goes to confession and because they have done thease things they are going to heaven.

I have attended mass on numerous occasions and have been deeply  touched be the dedication of many of those that go and I see and appreciate very much a reverance for what is holy.

What bothers me is this when one is truly saved their veiwpoint starts with how they came to recieve Jesus Christ as their Lord and saviour. This experiance of God’s grace, and I can describe this in detail. Why is this not mentioned as part of your experiance? Do you call it by another name? Can any of you that are catholic describe this to me where this has happened in you?

 

[leslierx82]

I think that from my personal perspective, which I can only imagine likens to that of other Catholics, the problem comes when you “accept” Jesus Christ…how is He yours to accept? The notion that any act of your own conscience could possibly affect the fact that Christ has ALREADY died and won your salvation…just seems silly to me. I have no doubt that you must have had a moving experience in which the Holy Spirit may have filled you, but don’t kid yourself into thinking you had anything to do with it. Now, you can either receive this gift lovingly, and reciprocate in your everyday activities, or you can turn away and choose not to share in this gift, but it’s yours for the taking. And if you are now “saved”, does this mean you will sin no more? Just because you have now “accepted” Christ, what next? Are you done? Have you graduated? There is far more to be done in this life, than to merely declare yourself saved.

 

[Church_Militant]

I guess you would call me a protestant . I do not think you really understand what a protestant doesent understand. when one recieves Jesus Christ as saviour their whole life is changed. They are transformed from the inside out. It is totally a work of God’s grace. You are never the same. Because of the change that God has wrought in you. Yes one has to obey and keep God,
's ways. The old man is done away and the new man is raised in his place. This is according to God’s word.

     What the protestant sees is or what I see is a person that is catholic is baptised at birth and goes through confirmation partakes of first communion goes to confession and because they have done thease things they are going to heaven.

I have attended mass on numerous occasions and have been deeply  touched be the dedication of many of those that go and I see and appreciate very much a reverance for what is holy.

What bothers me is this when one is truly saved their veiwpoint starts with how they came to recieve Jesus Christ as their Lord and saviour. This experiance of God’s grace, and I can describe this in detail. Why is this not mentioned as part of your experiance? Do you call it by another name? Can any of you that are catholic describe this to me where this has happened in you?

Maybe because you do not know where to look. My Testimony

And it may also be that you have believed a less Biblical teaching concerning salvation and Christianity in general.
Who REALLY Preaches “A Different Gospel”?

In my experience there is no place in the Word of God that says that one “recieves Jesus Christ as saviour” in the context that n-Cs preach it. It’s just not there.

Also in my experience, the majority of the people that I encountered as a non-Catholic were generally no better than the best of my Catholic brothers and sisters, regardless of the messages preached.

One of the biggest problems is that most n-Cs seem to consider conversion as a one time event when in fact the New Testament teaches it as an ongoing process.

If you’re looking or faithful Catholics who live and witness their faith, then you’ve come to the right place.

 

[Church_Militant]

You know what? You need to do works! Bottom line. The Bible says so.

FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD! That’s the whole point. Not faith alone, not works alone, but the synonymous expression of both as one. They are in and of the same. If you do not do works, then your faith is DEAD! True faith presents works inherently. If you insist on taking everything so completely literally, why don’t you start with the Bible?A clear, concise, and to-the-point post.

 

[leslierx82]

Yes, just took me a few novels to get it out!!

 

[Church_Militant]

Yes, just took me a few novels to get it out!!

Brother don’t I know how that goes!



Apocalypsis

 

[Atemi]

You know what? You need to do works! Bottom line.

Agreed, but they will never justify a single soul before a Holy God.

The Bible says so. FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD!

Agreed.

No need for shouting.

That’s the whole point. Not faith alone, not works alone, but the synonymous expression of both as one.

It is through faith that we are saved, not by faith and works. That would assume that you can do enough good works to justify yourself before a Holy God. God forbid any soul to think so much of itself.

Eph 2:8 “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.”

The Holy Spirit and the Apostle explicitly reject works from the formula by which we receive this wonderful gift from God. You have added it.

If you do not do works, then your faith is DEAD!

Agreed, but we are talking justification before a Holy God here.

True faith presents works inherently.

Agreed.

If you insist on taking everything so completely literally, why don’t you start with the Bible?

I am taking the OP for what it actually says, not for what I would merely wish it to say or hope it might.

Like I said, if the OP said something in error, they can let us all know. Until then, I must assume they said what they meant and mean what they say.

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[Church_Militant]

Yes, just took me a few novels to get it out!!

Brother don’t I know how that goes! Apocalypsis

 

[Atemi]

In my experience there is no place in the Word of God that says that one “recieves Jesus Christ as saviour” in the context that n-Cs preach it. It’s just not there.

Jhn 1:12 “But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name”

Act 19:2 “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”

Col 2:6 “As you therefore have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him”

This is the context that non-Catholic Christians preach it.

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[Church_Militant]

Jhn 1:12 "But as many as received Him

, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name"

Act 19:2 “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”

Col 2:6 “As you therefore have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him”

This is the context that non-Catholic Christians preach it.Yep, right straight out of context of both the respective passages that they are plucked from and the entire context of the New Testament.

The plain fact is that the Word of God does not present that to mean what modern post reformation n-Cs preach it to mean and you have just done a fine job of demonstrating my point for me.

Thank you so very much…

 

[Teflon93]

Yep, right straight out of context of both the respective passages that they are plucked from and the entire context of the New Testament.

The plain fact is that the Word of God does not present that to mean what modern post reformation n-Cs preach it to mean and you have just done a fine job of demonstrating my point for me.

Thank you so very much…

It’s funny how non-Catholics insist on posting out of context scraps, making much of the English translation of single words, isn’t it?

 

[MIZER]

Brian Millar states:

you are not performing works out of duty, it is something that comes naturally without prompting. If it is not, I’d take a harder look at where your true faith lies.

This is one of the many errors of the “faith alone” doctrine. It negates free will. Our good works are not automatic if we have “true” faith. Furthermore, “true faith” is not “faith alone.” The word “true” is used by non-Catholics to qualify the word faith when they realize that “faith alone” is a false doctrine and yet they still wish to deny the true Church and her true teachings.

Jon NC states:

The issue between Catholics and noncatholics is not justification. We are saved by grace through faith.

That we are saved by grace through faith, is Catholic teaching. It always has been. The reformers said “no,” we are saved by grace through faith “alone.” So Jon NC, if you agree that Catholic teaching is closer to Biblical truth, than that of the “reformers,” then why are you not Catholic? Why do you continue to practice Lutheranism when the man who is held as an icon, if not the founder of your religion, actually added the word “alone” to his German translation of the Bible to facillitate leading his followers into error? Why are you not Catholic?

Jon NC goes on to state that:

And while these good works do not save me (in fact they are His good works done through me), they are a sign of my justification. The lack of works indicates a dead faith, and a justification rejected by free will.

Why do you refuse to see that good works are a part of the gift of faith if you understand that they are His good works, done through you? This concept is also Catholic teaching. Your acts of charity can be no more seperated from your faith than your actions can be seperated from the love you would profess for your spouse or your child. In 1Corinthians, Saint Paul explains love as if it were a verb. Faith is explained the same way. That’s why love is the greatest of these three, “faith, hope and love.” In order to be the faith of salvation, faith must not be “alone”, but rather it must be acting in love. This is the message found in the 2nd chapter of James and it is the ancient, consistent and constant teaching of Catholic Church.

 

[Brian_Millar]

I was not the first person to post that fact along faith which produces works. It’s written that faith without works is dead, sure you still have your free will in tact, you can choose not to do works, not to bear the fruit from your faith, I’ve seen this happen all too often with people, especially when things aren’t going their way. Their so called faith goes out the window and they turn viscious and worldly. This just as well is the fruit they bear.

 

[MIZER]

Atemi writes:

Quote:
Originally Posted by leslierx82
You know what? You need to do works! Bottom line.

Agreed, but they will never justify a single soul before a Holy God.

According to James 2:24, you are simply wrong Atemi.

The Bible defines faith differently than the dictionary. Just as the Bible defines love differently than the dictionary. Both the words love and faith are nouns according to Merriam Webster’s Dictionary, look them up online and you will see love means affection (also a noun) and faith means belief (a noun). Saint Paul, however, very clearly defines love as if it were a verb. If you would honestly seek a Biblical definition for the word faith, you would see the error of your statement here.

Taken as a whole, the NT generally does the same thing with the word faith, that Saint Paul specifically does with the word love. My guess is that it may be more obscure to your sight, when you read the Bible because you are somewhat blinded by the false doctrine of “faith alone.”

If you would just consider your position from a logical standpoint you would be able to see that it is false. If you will consider the fact that faith, as it is described and defined in the Bible (notice that some verses say belief and others say faith, the two words are not entirely synonymous in Scripture until you get to James 2:24) means "our human response to God’s Grace and surpases the simple dictionary definition, then look again at your statement that, good works “will never justify a single soul before a Holy God,” you will see that what you are really saying is that faith (correctly defined) will not justify us before God.

Logically, if one believes that good works will not justify us then the converse must also be true and no evil works will damn us before God. Is that what you believe? Do you believe that no act of evil, no matter how heinous, no matter how willful, will damn us before God? NO! I don’t think you do. Rather you will come back and say that, "oh, the person who sins, and commits an act of evil didn’t have “true” faith and so was not “saved” to begin with. This is the erroneous circular logic of your “faith alone” doctrine and it is clearly contrary to James’ teaching when he tells us that indeed, the demons had faith, and yet because of thier failure to do good, they fell to the depths of hell.

Although someone posted the verses that use the phraseology of “receiving” Christ, much to the chagrin of the Catholics on the Board who will tell you the expression in the Bible is not the same as the expression, as it is used by non-Catholics today, and it is being taken out of the context of the Bible as a whole, you can not point to a single verse in the Bible that distinguishes between “true faith,” and faith. In the Bible, faith is simply faith and it means "our human response to God’s Grace. The Bible does not qualify faith by adding a prefix nor does it state that “faith alone” saves. Not anywhere. John 3:16, one of your proof tests that salvation is wrought by our “believing on Christ” does not say “belief alone” and the verse actually says “may have eternal life,” not “will have eternal life” and nowhere does the Bible say we have absolute assurance of eternal life at the point we decide to “believe.”

The only verse in the Bible that has the word alone directly following the word * faith* is James 2:24 where it very plainly says, “and not by faith alone.” This is why you and every non-Catholic Christian (may God open your closed eyes to the truth) must torture the Scriptures to try and prove your faith alone doctrine. (Thank God the “reformers” failed in their effort to trash the book of James) Why do you do that? Why won’t you see the truth when it is so plainly before you (“and not by faith alone”) in print, in the only authority you claim to hold?

This is what baffles me most about non-Catholics. You will accuse Catholics of “following the traditions of men” and yet you will not see that this is precisely what you do in your unbridled effort to forever defend the traditions of the “reformers.” Even to the point of denying logic and refusing to allow a verse to mean what it very plainly says.

‘SO YOU CAN SEE YOU ARE JUSTIFIED BY WORKS AND NOT BY FAITH ALONE.’ JAMES 2:24

 

[Atemi]

According to James 2:24, you are simply wrong Atemi.

Sorry, but James 2:24 is not talking about anyone’s works justifying them before a Holy God.

Taken as a whole, the NT generally does the same thing with the word faith, that Saint Paul specifically does with the word love. My guess is that it may be more obscure to your sight, when you read the Bible because you are somewhat blinded by the false doctrine of “faith alone.”

Thank you for the insult, but let’s move on…

If you would just consider your position from a logical standpoint you would be able to see that it is false.

Been there, done that.

The Scriptures are abundantly clear that men are not justified before a Holy God by their works.

Some will stand before God in judgment and offer their works to justify themselves. That is insufficient.

Still others will stand before God in judgment and offer their works in an attempt to supplement Christ’s work for their justification before God. That is an insult.

Then there will be those who trust wholly in the works of Christ as the only works that justify sinners before a Holy God. That is life.

If you will consider the fact that faith, as it is described and defined in the Bible (notice that some verses say belief and others say faith, the two words are not entirely synonymous in Scripture until you get to James 2:24) means "our human response to God’s Grace and surpases the simple dictionary definition, then look again at your statement that, good works “will never justify a single soul before a Holy God,” you will see that what you are really saying is that faith (correctly defined) will not justify us before God.

The Scriptures do not have a problem differentiating between faith and works. I do not have that problem either.

It is faith that justifies men before a Holy God, not works.

Logically, if one believes that good works will not justify us then the converse must also be true and no evil works will damn us before God. Is that what you believe? Do you believe that no act of evil, no matter how heinous, no matter how willful, will damn us before God? NO! I don’t think you do. Rather you will come back and say that, "oh, the person who sins, and commits an act of evil didn’t have “true” faith and so was not “saved” to begin with. This is the erroneous circular logic of your “faith alone” doctrine and it is clearly contrary to James’ teaching when he tells us that indeed, the demons had faith, and yet because of thier failure to do good, they fell to the depths of hell.

Demons are not in Hell, they are here.

Although someone posted the verses that use the phraseology of “receiving” Christ, much to the chagrin of the Catholics on the Board who will tell you the expression in the Bible is not the same as the expression, as it is used by non-Catholics today

As a non-Catholic, it is the same exact expression.

Catholics usually disdain people telling them what they believe, but then why would they presume to turn right around tell others what they believe?

and it is being taken out of the context of the Bible as a whole, you can not point to a single verse in the Bible that distinguishes between “true faith,” and faith.

James 2:14, James 2:18

In the Bible, faith is simply faith and it means "our human response to God’s Grace. The Bible does not qualify faith by adding a prefix nor does it state that “faith alone” saves.

The Scriptures are clear that it is “through faith” we are saved, not “through works.”

I do not presume that “through faith” really, really means “through faith and this or that.”

Not anywhere. John 3:16, one of your proof tests that salvation is wrought by our “believing on Christ” does not say “belief alone” and the verse actually says “may have eternal life,” not “will have eternal life”

The Greek says nothing about “may have.”

The Greek text simply says “have.”

Believe = Have.

I tend to believe Jesus myself. If some may find it hard to believe Christ, here is the Holy Spirit through the Apostle Paul:

Act 16:31 “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved”

Or here it is in the Douay-Rheims:

“Believe in the Lord Jesus, and thou shalt be saved”

The Holy Spirit does not contradict Himself. Either we “may” be saved if we believe in Jesus Christ, or we “will” be saved.

The NT is abundantly clear exactly which of those two options is the truth.

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[Teflon93]

When may we look forward to seeing whole passages of Scripture which justify your claims, Atemi, rather than fragments slathered in your particular interpretation?

After all, Scripture was not divided into verses until relatively late in the process; yanking verses out of context in support of one’s post-16th century tradition won’t convince anyone who knows their Bible.

 

[leslierx82]

The Scriptures are clear that it is “through faith” we are saved, not “through works.”

I do not presume that “through faith” really, really means “through faith and this or that.”

Okay, but do you presume that “through faith” really means “faith…but only in my head”?? If you consider faith to BE man’s reaction to God’s grace…(or however it was previously stated), then you have to consider faith to be an expression, not just a state of mind. While we say that faith without works is dead, so is it true that works without faith are dead. Can you not see that one is not independent of the other?? I can only accept that “faith” refers to that in its entirety, not just the cause without the effect.

In a previous post it was mentioned that…“somebody knew many people who did good works, but they suffered catastrophe in their lives, and so on…and so on…” Those people may have been doing “works”, but if their works were absent of faith, they were not the good works Christ requires of us. This is not the “works” we’re refering to.

 

[Atemi]

Okay, but do you presume that “through faith” really means “faith…but only in my head”??

Never.

There is no such thing in the Christian life.

Faith “only in the head” is not saving faith.

If you consider faith to BE man’s reaction to God’s grace…(or however it was previously stated), then you have to consider faith to be an expression, not just a state of mind. While we say that faith without works is dead, so is it true that works without faith are dead. Can you not see that one is not independent of the other?? I can only accept that “faith” refers to that in its entirety, not just the cause without the effect.

Like I said before, I tend to agree with most of what you say regarding this.

There are no meritorious works without saving faith, and there is no saving faith where you will not see works.

But we are talking about what justifies sinners before a Holy God.

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