Some ideas on the feeding of the 5000 - thoughts?

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I was listening to ole’ James Earl Jones reading Mark and something struck me, and it was cool enough to want to share it with someone and see what they thought.

6:39Then he commanded them all to sit down in groups on the green grass. 40So they sat down in groups, by hundreds and by fifties. 41And taking the five loaves and the two fish he looked up to heaven and said a blessing and broke the loaves and gave them to the disciples to set before the people. And he divided the two fish among them all. 42And they all ate and were satisfied.

First, the people are seperated into groups - but pretty big groups, not small ones. This is much like how we are seperated into different churches, or as it has been called since the 4th century, parishes. Then, they hand out the 5 loaves and 2 fishes. Now I have for a little while understood this to refer to the 5 ‘regular’ Sacraments and the 2 Sacraments of Service, Matrimony and Orders.

But I noticed something new: Jesus has the apostles hand out the bread, but He Himself hands out the fishes, which Mark says He divided amongst the people. Now this is interesting. The bishops of the Church (through the priests) distribute the 5 Sacraments to the people rather indiscriminantly. They don’t have to know anything about you, you just go to your parish (or, in the Gospel here, group) and they give you the Sacraments to everyone there. On the other hand, they don’t just hand out Marriage and Orders. These are callings from God, which He Himself divides up amongst the people and gives to them, just as here Jesus divides up the two fishes and gives them to the people.

I thought this was very interesting, so I started thinking about the differences between bread and fish. Bread is more or less - especially when speaking of the time of Jesus - standard fare. It’s what keeps you alive. It’s what you can’t go without. There’s nothing all that special about it - it’s the minimum you need day in and day out to survive. Fish, on the other hand, is special. It has protein, and it gives you the strength to do your work. It has a special flavor to it, and you savor it. Also, some people like one kind of fish, others like others; some like haddock, some like salmon. Now I don’t know if Jesus had different kinds of fish, you get the point I’m making. Fish is special, we enjoy it’s savor, and what’s more we enjoy one type of fish over another. Fish, unlike bread, has to be prepared. You hand out bread to someone and he eats it. He doesn’t need to do anything all that special to eat it, except perhaps that if he’s sick he needs to be well before he can keep it down. Fish, on the other hand, you have to scale, take out the bones, and cook. It takes a bit of preparation.

In the same way, the 5 Sacraments of Baptism, Confirmation, Eucharist, Pennance, and Annointing are really the standard fare. Obviously they are very special, but in a certain sense they are nothing special, because they are just the regular ‘bread’ we need day in and day out to survive. Sure, we enjoy them, but in a relatively common way. In other words, everyone has these things in common, and they bring happiness, but when we add our particular vocation to this ‘daily bread,’ it brings a fullness to the us that wasn’t there with these alone, so the way we enjoy the 5 Sacraments is very different from how we enjoy our marriages or our ordination (or consecration). These we enjoy in a very particular way - they add a fullness to our lives, a fullness particular to us, that is not found in the other 5 Sacraments. Now the ‘regular’ 5 don’t require any preperation, other than being in a right relationship with God, just as bread really requires no preparation other than the healing of an inllness. Marriage and Ordination, however, do require special preparation. Just as a man must remove the scales of a fish to eat it, so we must remove the barriers we put between ourselves and others before we can wed or enter a consecrated life. Just as a man must remove the bones from inside a fish before he can eat it, so must we remove many of the undesirable things within ourselves before we can be given to others, for just as a man may choke on the bones of a fish he is given if they are not removed, so will those we seek to serve in life choke on the bones of our own inner sins if we do not remove them as best we can. Just as a man must cook a fish to purify it of disease and to bring it to warmth and readiness to be eaten, so too must we go through a process of gaining warmth for others and readiness to serve them.

I don’t know if there are other differences or things pertaining to fish and bread that applies, but I am sure there probably are. If you can think of any, let me know. 👍
 
I was listening to ole’ James Earl Jones reading Mark and something struck me, and it was cool enough to want to share it with someone and see what they thought.

6:39Then he commanded them all to sit down in groups on the green grass. 40So they sat down in groups, by hundreds and by fifties. 41And taking the five loaves and the two fish he looked up to heaven and said a blessing and broke the loaves and gave them to the disciples to set before the people. And he divided the two fish among them all. 42And they all ate and were satisfied.

First, the people are seperated into groups - but pretty big groups, not small ones. This is much like how we are seperated into different churches, or as it has been called since the 4th century, parishes. Then, they hand out the 5 loaves and 2 fishes. Now I have for a little while understood this to refer to the 5 ‘regular’ Sacraments and the 2 Sacraments of Service, Matrimony and Orders.

But I noticed something new: Jesus has the apostles hand out the bread, but He Himself hands out the fishes, which Mark says He divided amongst the people. Now this is interesting. The bishops of the Church (through the priests) distribute the 5 Sacraments to the people rather indiscriminantly. They don’t have to know anything about you, you just go to your parish (or, in the Gospel here, group) and they give you the Sacraments to everyone there. On the other hand, they don’t just hand out Marriage and Orders. These are callings from God, which He Himself divides up amongst the people and gives to them, just as here Jesus divides up the two fishes and gives them to the people.

I thought this was very interesting, so I started thinking about the differences between bread and fish. Bread is more or less - especially when speaking of the time of Jesus - standard fare. It’s what keeps you alive. It’s what you can’t go without. There’s nothing all that special about it - it’s the minimum you need day in and day out to survive. Fish, on the other hand, is special. It has protein, and it gives you the strength to do your work. It has a special flavor to it, and you savor it. Also, some people like one kind of fish, others like others; some like haddock, some like salmon. Now I don’t know if Jesus had different kinds of fish, you get the point I’m making. Fish is special, we enjoy it’s savor, and what’s more we enjoy one type of fish over another. Fish, unlike bread, has to be prepared. You hand out bread to someone and he eats it. He doesn’t need to do anything all that special to eat it, except perhaps that if he’s sick he needs to be well before he can keep it down. Fish, on the other hand, you have to scale, take out the bones, and cook. It takes a bit of preparation.

In the same way, the 5 Sacraments of Baptism, Confirmation, Eucharist, Pennance, and Annointing are really the standard fare. Obviously they are very special, but in a certain sense they are nothing special, because they are just the regular ‘bread’ we need day in and day out to survive. Sure, we enjoy them, but in a relatively common way. In other words, everyone has these things in common, and they bring happiness, but when we add our particular vocation to this ‘daily bread,’ it brings a fullness to the us that wasn’t there with these alone, so the way we enjoy the 5 Sacraments is very different from how we enjoy our marriages or our ordination (or consecration). These we enjoy in a very particular way - they add a fullness to our lives, a fullness particular to us, that is not found in the other 5 Sacraments. Now the ‘regular’ 5 don’t require any preperation, other than being in a right relationship with God, just as bread really requires no preparation other than the healing of an inllness. Marriage and Ordination, however, do require special preparation. Just as a man must remove the scales of a fish to eat it, so we must remove the barriers we put between ourselves and others before we can wed or enter a consecrated life. Just as a man must remove the bones from inside a fish before he can eat it, so must we remove many of the undesirable things within ourselves before we can be given to others, for just as a man may choke on the bones of a fish he is given if they are not removed, so will those we seek to serve in life choke on the bones of our own inner sins if we do not remove them as best we can. Just as a man must cook a fish to purify it of disease and to bring it to warmth and readiness to be eaten, so too must we go through a process of gaining warmth for others and readiness to serve them.

I don’t know if there are other differences or things pertaining to fish and bread that applies, but I am sure there probably are. If you can think of any, let me know. 👍
How about the feeding of the 4000 in the Gospel of Mark with 7 loaves and some fish?
 
How about the feeding of the 4000 in the Gospel of Mark with 7 loaves and some fish?
I was thinking about that this evening. I don’t think that the two necessarily stories have to be connected in every way. I think that the three loaves stories certainly have an overarching meaning when taken as a whole, but I also think they each teach something individually.

There’s no question that there is a general message getting across from all three that the apostles just didn’t get it. They saw the miracle once with the 5,000, and didn’t get it. They saw it a second time with the 4,000, and still didn’t get it.

They also obiously are prefigurements to the Eucharist. They also give the important lesson of offering thanks for the gifts of nourishment God gives us.

I think that the feeding of the 4,000 may have some relation with the meaning I saw in the 5,000, too. While the feeding of the 5,000 seems to give a message about the Sacraments of Service, as I said, the feeding of the 4,000 may be meant to indicate that despite this distinction, all the Sacraments ultimately still come from Christ, and ultimately are still entrusted to the Church. I notice that in the feeding of the 4,000, Christ has some fishes of His own that He hands out after the bread is distributed by the apostles. This could, if going along the idea of the 5,000, relate to the consecrated life. It’s not a Sacrament, but it is a gift given by Christ and all the things I said about the fish in the first post would apply to it as well.
 
Have you thought about reading the ECF on this topic.
Particularly John Chrysostom.

I am not used to the loose correlations, but there are many things to consider about these different feedings.
Elijah did a multiplication of loaves in the OT.
4 loaves to 25 people.

The comment that the disciples didn’t get it, may have something to do with a materialistic understanding of the universe based on the OT prophets. They didn’t yet understand that God creates EX-NIHLO. There is the question – we have so much material for a very big crowd – eg. how far can God stretch matter.

The Genesis account shows God pulling order from chaos – not all Hebrews would necessarily interpret that as creating from absolutely nothing. So, it is perhaps a case of hindsight to say – they didn’t get it.

But do you notice that even Judas gets a full basket to collect at the end. Even he was given a part of the miracle as a final call to repentance before dipping his hand into the bread dish while betraying Christ? Why else 12 full baskets of leftovers – one for each apostle.
 
I have a way also of reading the five loaves and two fish. The reason we need physical sustenance is because we ultimately need spiritual sustenance, and the primary ways that God feeds us spiritually is through the grace of the sacraments. and there are seven. But there is an apporpriate way to discern the partition of the five and two that is more important than lazer’s interp.

For the Eucharist and seven sacraments are signs of the UNITY of Christians that Christ prayed for in His Eucharistic prayer. And it is precisely*** in the separation of heresy** and an attack on the true nature of the Eucharist that partitions the sacraments into one group of five and one group of two*: When a heretic or heretical community separates from the Catholic Communion, they forfiet five sacraments and retain only two, Baptism and Marriage.

Further the Bread of Loaves requires the barley, which comes from the Earth, and in Scripture, the Earth symbolizes FOUNDATION, hence, “build your house on solid ground, not on the sand, … the Church of the living God is the pillar and *ground *of the truth”. Hence, of the seven sacraments, five of them require the earth, or magisterium, whereas two of them (Baptism and Marriage) are fish that can be gotten in the sea, where one is tossed “to and fro by every wave of doctrine…”

Further applications exist in the Second Beast: the False Prophet, the FALSE Logos has TWO horns, like a Lamb, who has seven: so then just as Tertullian says the devil plagiarizes the sacraements, so the false word of the fall is to take even what goodness is to be retained by heretics (the two horns of Baptism and Marriage, ) and twists it into its diabloical counterpart. So just as the seal of Baptism makes us a child of God, so the mark of the beast makes us a child of the devil, and just as marriage prefigures the ultimate union with God in heaven, so we have the “Whore”.

I elaborate considerably in the following links:

Five Loaves and Two Fish, the Seven Sacraments?

The Lamb, with seven horns, the False Prophet, with two horns, the True Logos, the False Logos

Applying the Five and Two Analogy to the Three Great Woes of Revelation
 
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