Some more help with Vatican II?

[braeden_mackay]

Hello everyone,

I am a young catholic, and i am stuggling to find my place in my faith. I am a very traditional catholic and attached to the latin mass. I love everything traditional and undortunatly my diocese has some horrifying liturgical abuses and the like and some of the ugliest church architecture youve ever seen.

I am currently attending a Sedevacantist chapel for the mass and sacraments, nothing else. I love the Church and my faith. I am so worried about the state of the church and where i should go. I never feel right, i am worried about heresy and wrong teachings that are taught at my catholic high school. I now alot about my faith and love the history of our Church, that is why i love the latin mass. I want to worship the way my ancestors did.

At my “normal / vatican II” parish, i was called backward thinking and stuck in medeival tims and the priest told me i shouldnt be allowed to pray in latin (rosary). Some priests are so modern it is crazy and my RCIA class led me to be poorly catechized i only know what i know from everything that i have researched on my own. I need some help. I dont know heat to do or where to go. How can i accept Vatican II and the present Pope if i feel they are both against me? I respect our current pope, but i think that he is leading the church down the wrong road. there are so many factors, i feel like i am going to loose my mind and my soul.

Thank you for any advice and help!!

 

[Ad_Orientem]

Braeden,

I encourage you to find a traditional parish in communion with the Holy See–such as FSSP, ICRSS, etc.; the priests there should be able to help you with your questions.

Here are some listings:

FSSP Masses

ICRSS Masses

Coalition Ecclesia Dei

Carl Schwalm’s listings

 

[braeden_mackay]

Thank you for your reply.

I have searched this option already. There are none anywhere near where I live and the diocese keeps a tight yoke on where the Latin Mass is said That is why I am in such a predicament here.

Thank you though.

 

[Ad_Orientem]

That’s a shame, Braeden. Is there another, canonically recognized option in your area which isn’t so bad? I can understand your draw to the only TLM in town, but if it’s sedevacantist, it doesn’t fulfill your Sunday obligation, nor can that priest normally offer valid sacramental absolution (which requires jurisdiction from the ordinary of the diocese).

 

[braeden_mackay]

Yes, this is my problem. I am struggling more right now with Vatican II. I keep feeling like something is amiss or that the devil is deceiving me, but i am not sure. I love everything traditional and i will countinue on that path. I just dont know what is wrong with me, I understood everything before going to that chapel. They convinced my Vatican II was heretical and that the Pope is an Anti-Pope, but how can this possibly be?

I am trying to accept the Mass as taught by Vatican II, but i feel like i am going against what the church has always taught, and now all of a sudden it is time for a change? I am sorry to keep going, but i am so confused and disheartened.

 

[Iron_Donkey]

Hi,

I have a few comments here, some in agreement with you but some that are somewhat opposed to what you said.

Hello everyone,

I am a young catholic, and i am stuggling to find my place in my faith. I am a very traditional catholic and attached to the latin mass. I love everything traditional and undortunatly my diocese has some horrifying liturgical abuses and the like and some of the ugliest church architecture youve ever seen.

This is a common and unfortunate issue. Fortunately, we seem to be recovering from this slowly.

I am currently attending a Sedevacantist chapel for the mass and sacraments, nothing else.

A very dangerous thing to do, and probably not a good idea. Being immersed in sedevacantism on a weekly basis is likely to cause some of it to soak in. A particular comment below set off warning bells in this regard (though again, I do not wish to denigrate your concern for right teaching and right practice).

I love the Church and my faith. I am so worried about the state of the church and where i should go. I never feel right, i am worried about heresy and wrong teachings that are taught at my catholic high school. I now alot about my faith and love the history of our Church, that is why i love the latin mass. I want to worship the way my ancestors did.

I feel for you about bad catechesis and wanting to worship in the Latin Mass. My own religious education classes were… somewhat lacking. We do drew pictures and talked about how much Jesus loved us, which is all well and good, but never did anything else. But poor practice or teaching of the Catholic faith does not reflect upon the Catholic faith itself, and the Catholic faith is squarely centered on Rome and those in communion with Rome. And so we should stay in the parishes recognized by the Church.

At my “normal / vatican II” parish, i was called backward thinking and stuck in medeival tims and the priest told me i shouldnt be allowed to pray in latin (rosary).

If he was opposing praying in Latin in general, that is ridiculous. I want to emphasize this, as I am about to give a scenario where this is less ridiculous, and I want to be sure that you know that I am not saying that I know that this other scenario is true. Only you and he can figure that out, and it might be worth talking to him further.

It is possible to be so attracted to one form of prayer or worship that we lose sight of the validity or value of the others, and it may (MAY) be that he was counseling you against focus on Latin for this reason. Again, remember that even a good thing can be focused on to the point where it leads us to error. While the Latin Mass and traditional observances are very good and beautiful things, there are some who take their devotion to them, in itself good, and turn them into opposition or rejecting of other good and true things.

Again, despite the fact that I am for the most part warning against what I am reading here, I want to emphasize that this is only because I’ve seen what happens when the ideas you are expressing are taken too far. Being a fellow sufferer of the trials of tambourines at mass and touchy feely meaningless teaching, I can sympathize. But again, the proper response is to recognize that bad and deal with it or ignore as we can and is appropriate, and most of the time for most of it that means gritting our teeth and bearing it out.

Some priests are so modern it is crazy and my RCIA class led me to be poorly catechized i only know what i know from everything that i have researched on my own.

In more or less the same boat.

How can i accept Vatican II and the present Pope if i feel they are both against me? I respect our current pope, but i think that he is leading the church down the wrong road.

This is the comment I referred to earlier. And the answer is: it’s not about you. If you feel they are against you, then you are looking at it entirely the wrong way. Most likely, this means that you have accepted that the abuses that followed Vatican II are contained within Vatican II rather than just that - abuses - and that you have gotten your information about what Pope Francis has done/said second or third hand.

But it doesn’t actually matter if this is the case or not. Because Christ appointed twelve Apostles who lead the flock, and He did not in fact give the flock veto power over the Apostles. That doesn’t mean that they are right in everything they do, or that we should pretend that everything is ok when it’s not, but it does mean that we have to recognize their leadership even when we think they are wrong. They have real authority.

And it is the Pope’s job to steer the barque of Peter. Again, we absolutely must do what we can to help the Church, but in the end, the Pope is the Pope and we are not.

there are so many factors, i feel like i am going to loose my mind and my soul.

Thank you for any advice and help!!

If nothing else, read this part of my response:
It is on the Pope and Bishops to lead the Church, and they will be judged for the job they do. That is on them. In the mean time, whether they are doing a good job or bad, we worry about the state of our soul by going and confessing our own mortal sins and not by trying to determine if our priests are doing it right.

Don’t get me wrong. We can and should absolutely try to help our leaders lead. But the job they do doesn’t affect out salvation, and the confessions they offer is valid, so no matter what we think of what they are doing, the answer is the same: validly and licitly receive the sacraments, help and pray for our leaders as we can, confess our own sins, and trust that in the end the Church is in God’s hands and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

 

[Pablopedro]

Yes, this is my problem. I am struggling more right now with Vatican II. I keep feeling like something is amiss or that the devil is deceiving me, but i am not sure. I love everything traditional and i will countinue on that path. I just dont know what is wrong with me, I understood everything before going to that chapel. They convinced my Vatican II was heretical and that the Pope is an Anti-Pope, but how can this possibly be?

I am trying to accept the Mass as taught by Vatican II, but i feel like i am going against what the church has always taught, and now all of a sudden it is time for a change? I am sorry to keep going, but i am so confused and disheartened.

Here is something that helped me with these thoughts.

Look at what where the sudden unliked changes have occured. Has the Anglican Church been spared such changes even though they did not have Vatican II? Have the Eastern Orthodox been spared many of the same changes even though they did not have Vatican II? And what about the Roman Catholic churches in many third world countries, they are as reverent and orthodox as ever.

The reality is blaming Vatican II is what is called a “Post hoc ergo propter hoc” fallacy. In fact if you look carefully at the research you will see that mass media has far more to do with some of the more unpleasant changes then Vatican II does.

 

[agnes_therese]

I just dont know what is wrong with me,** I understood everything before going to that chapel**. They convinced my Vatican II was heretical and that the Pope is an Anti-Pope, but how can this possibly be?

Braeden,

Read your own statement again – I bolded the most important part. What does this tell you about attending a sedevacantist chapel? Will you continue listening to people who are trying to separate you from the Church?

 

[agnes_therese]

I was listening to Catholic Answers Live on the way home from work today, and they recommended this book to someone with many of the same questions. In fact, he too has been attending Mass celebrated by priests not in communion with the church.

amazon.com/Vatican-II-Renewal-within-Tradition/dp/0195332679/ref=tmm_pap_title_0

 

[St_Francis]

Braedon,
Please find a source of good, orthodox Catholic teaching and stick to it. It may be that there is none to be found in your diocese and you will have to find something like Rural Catholic Radio, Audio Sancto, Institute for Catholic Culture, Argument of the Month Club, and listen to those.

Your diocese may not be orthodox, filled with bad teaching and liturgical abuse, but this is just your diocese. Your diocese is not the entire Catholic Church. The Catholic Church, the Pope in Rome, all that are still the Catholic Church, not some bizarre breakaway from the “true” Church. Don’t listen to sedevacantists who believe that the Pope is not really the Pope.

I seriously investigated the claims of sedevacantism for a couple of years, and all that happened was that I became suspicious and focused on things that were beyond where I needed to be. Very, very bad for my spiritual life because I was so focused on issues outside myself.

Yes, there are troubling things happening in some parts of the Church. Bit this has often been the case. The Church has usually been in some sort of trouble one way or another. Read history, it’s actually reassuring

Get away from those who will poison your mind against the Church which Christ Himself promised to protect! It is better that you go to the Mass with the fewest liturgical abuses you can find and pray for the priests and bishop of your diocese.

Remember that at one point, things looked really bad for Christ and His Church. He had been captured and was slowly being killed on the cross. His Body was torn up, His Face blooded, nails pierced His Hands and Feet. And then He died, and was placed into a tomb.

And yet this whole situation turned out to be for the good, didn’t it? The Gates of Heaven were opened for us, and we were redeemed. Christ returned in greater glory.

Christ’s Body, His Church, may look like it’s in bad shape right now. Parts of the Church are very wounded. And yet, Christ promised that the gates of Hell would not prevail against His Church.

the Apostles probably felt awful as Christ’s body was laid in the tomb. They had followed Him, but now He was dead. They probably felt discouraged and maybe even somewhat betrayed, like Christ wasn’t the real Messiah as they had believed. And yet, three days later they found out the truth.

Now seems like a time of passion for the Church. We might feel like, How can this be the real Church? But Christ has a plan, just as He did before. Now is not the time to leave Christ.

 

[CrossofChrist]

How can i accept Vatican II and the present Pope if i feel they are both against me? I respect our current pope, but i think that he is leading the church down the wrong road. there are so many factors, i feel like i am going to loose my mind and my soul.

Why do you think this?

 

[CrossofChrist]

I am trying to accept the Mass as taught by Vatican II, but i feel like i am going against what the church has always taught, and now all of a sudden it is time for a change?

I encourage you to look more deeply into this. Much of Vatican II was about rediscovering tradition, especially in the Mass.

 

[littlestsouls2]

God does not abandon His bride, the Church. There have been many saints and holy souls since the time of Vatican II, who were obedient to the Pope. We would do well to follow in their footsteps.

Servant of God, Marthe Robin (d. 1981), said that Our Lady “chose” the recently canonized Pope St. John Paul to be Pope. People can argue that he acted imprudently at times, or that he occasionally spoke ambiguously etc., but that would not of itself deprive him of his office. The same applies to any other legitimatley elected Pontiff.

With regards to the Mass, there are some beatuiful Traditional Orders (such as the Benedictines of Norcia, from memory) who celebrate both Masses in a very dignified manner. They give us a good idea of what the Church’s documents on the liturgy genuinely call for. It is important that we do not to equate liturgical abuse with Church teaching. Bl. Anne Catherine Emmerich allegedly made a prophecy that could suggest the New Mass is invalid, but the prophecy in question has been taken severely out of context (I own the book from which it comes). Many who dissent from the Church have been led astray by such things. You can read about the forgery here if you like:

jloughnan.tripod.com/forgery.htm

Perhaps you have heard other prophecies also, but rest assured that a great number of them have been misunderstood and taken out of context; there is no need to worry.

Fr. William Most is an excellent theologian who discusses some of the things that relate to your troubles. His writings are very helpful e.g.

catholicculture.org/culture/library/most/getwork.cfm?worknum=209

If you would like to discuss anything further, don’t hesitate to send me a pm.

ps. Before researching these issues any further, be at peace, knowing that God saves all souls of good-will. Bl. Anne Catherine Emmerich saw Protestants in Purgatory who were “pious in their ignorance,” and therefore mystically united to the Church. Do not fear that you could be separated from the Christ, the Head, when you seek Him so sincerely with your heart.

 

[Dempsey1919]

Firstly, Vatican II is different from any other Ecumenical Council because it did not define any new dogmas or condemn any errors. Vatican II is a pastoral Council that restated the Deposit of Faith for modern man. Vatican II gave no new teachings. However Vatican II was written in an ambiguous manner, which allows different interpretations. As Catholics, we must interpret Vatican II in the light of Tradition. We must promote the Hermeneutic of Continuity. This means we must interpret Vatican II in accordance with previous Magisterial teachings.

The teachings of previous Councils and Popes must be used to interpret the Council properly. Vatican II must never be seen a stand-alone Council; it must be seen as part of the whole teaching of the Church. In fact, Vatican II is not as important as some other Councils (such as Trent) because it was not dogmatic. If the pastoral presentation of the Faith contained in the documents of Vatican II is troubling to you, I recommend that you stop worrying about it and begin reading the documents of previous Councils, the encyclicals of previous Popes, and the traditional Catechisms such as the Catechism of the Council of Trent.

These older presentations of the Faith are very clear and once you have finished your study of the traditional Catechisms, you will find it easier to interpret Vatican II in continuity with the Tradition of the Church, should you desire to do so.

Personally, I no longer read the documents of Vatican II. I accept that it forms part of Church teaching, but since it is pastoral and not dogmatic, I prefer to behave as if Vatican II never happened. I accept the infallible statements contained in the Council, but I prefer to read the same infallible teachings in other, more clear, documents.

You should do the same. Accept Vatican II as a valid, legitimate pastoral Council that is different from the other Ecumenical Councils, and wait for the Church to officially clarify, and interpret the Council documents in light of Tradition. In the meantime, ignore those who seek to interpret Vatican II in ways that contradict previous Councils and Church teachings.

 

[Dempsey1919]

I encourage you to look more deeply into this. Much of Vatican II was about rediscovering tradition, especially in the Mass.

I agree with some of this. However, it is wrong to say that Vatican II was about rediscovering tradition (small ‘t’) especially in the Mass. Many would argue that the current Ordinary Form of the Mass was not what the Council Fathers wanted.

In fact, Ven. Pope Pius XII condemned liturgical archaeoligism in his Encyclical Mediator Dei. The belief that the most ancient liturgical traditions are the best is false. In fact, it is wrong to ignore centuries of organic liturgical development in favour of restoring ancient practices.

While this thread is not specifically about the liturgy, the false interpretation of Sacrosantum Concilium by Bugnini is a grave matter for many traditionally minded Catholics. Why do you think Benedict XVI allowed greater access to the Traditional Latin Mass? He permitted it because he wants the EF Mass to influence the OF Mass and vice versa; he recognised that the liturgical reforms after Vatican II were far from ideal.

The OF Mass is essentially the Mass of Luther and Cramner and nobody can legitimately claim otherwise. The OF Mass, while valid, is a protestantized Mass because it borrows heavily from Protestant liturgies. The committee who created the New Mass even had six Protestant advisors! The OF Mass is certainly valid but to say that it was what the Council Fathers of Vatican II wanted is false.

However, the Pope has supreme authority to change the Mass in any way he sees fit. As Catholics we must accept his Supreme Authority in matters of Church government and discipline. One cannot say that the Pope does not have the right to change the Mass. However, we can hold the personal opinion that the liturgical reforms after Vatican II were damaging to the faith of many in the Church.

 

[Dempsey1919]

St Francis:

Get away from those who will poison your mind against the Church which Christ Himself promised to protect! It is better that you go to the Mass with the fewest liturgical abuses you can find and pray for the priests and bishop of your diocese.

This is extremely good advice!

 

[Deo_Gratias42]

Thank you for your reply.

I have searched this option already. There are none anywhere near where I live and the diocese keeps a tight yoke on where the Latin Mass is said That is why I am in such a predicament here.

Thank you though.

Then you’re going to have to suck it up and attend either the OF or an Eastern Catholic Divine Liturgy, or move to a place where they have an EF Mass in full communion with Rome. Right now by attending a sedevacantent church and actively participating in their masses and sacraments, you are repeatedly committing a grave sin, possibly mortal.

I know my words are harsh, but it’s the truth. I can empathize with you, but our attachments to the EF and the Church’s traditions should NEVER lead away from Peter, which for many traditionalists, it has. Right now you are feeding your feelings, emotions, preferences, but you are not doing the will of God.