Some mysterious Marian verses

[Lief_Erikson]

On a side note, when comparing the Ark to Jesus, can we say that the events of the Ark being captured by the enemy of Israel and later returning and being welcomed joyfully by David and the people, stand for the dead, resurrection and joyfull receiving by the disciples of Jesus?

What happened to the Ark happened to its contents, because the contents of the Ark were inside the Ark. The contents of the Ark are the Law, the staff representing the priesthood, and the manna. Each of these contents of the Ark represents Jesus Christ. So the exile of the Ark cannot represent only the exile of the Ark; it also has to represent the exile of the Lord. For the Lord in the Ark was exiled at the same time the Ark was exiled, and for exactly the same amount of time as the Ark was exiled. The Church, Mary and Jesus are always united.

Therefore you’re right, the exile of the manna, Law and staff does indeed reflect the exile of Jesus in the grave, and the return of these symbols reflects His Resurrection and Ascension.

The Ark endured the same exile its contents did. Indeed, the contents endured this exile in complete union with their sacred vessel.

Mary was afflicted with Jesus’ suffering at the Passion. The saints and scriptures tell us that her suffering was incredible. In her soul, she experienced a dark night far exceeding that of any saint, as long as Jesus was dead. The Church too suffers dark nights during the sensible absence of Jesus and agonizes in union with Mary, in the exile of His Suffering and Death.

Mary is also a type of the Church, as is the Ark, for in a spiritual sense we are all “arks,” carrying the Word of God within our hearts, carrying within us the heavenly manna through the Mass, and participating in the universal royal priesthood of Christ’s Kingdom through our unity with the High Priest. So we are all miniature Mary’s. We are united with her and with her Lord, and we share in their unity. Therefore the coming of the ark and its contents into Jerusalem also reflects the General Resurrection in which we will all jubilantly take part, greeted by our Lord, His Queen, and the angels . Then He will crown us, even as He crowned His Queen, and even as He Himself, the Head of the Church, was crowned by the Father.

The exile of the Ark in the land of the Philistines, along with its sacred contents, also foreshadows Mary’s exile into Egypt, with her divine Son.

It is also beautiful to notice how the Lord entered Jerusalem on a donkey that no one had ever ridden on (Mark 11:2). This parallels how He lay in a tomb no one had ever been laid in, and was conceived in a womb no one had ever inhabited. The lowly donkey represents the lowly virgin. He comes through her into Jerusalem, He came through her into His Passion. In the Old Testament, the contents of the Ark were never removed from the Ark. Jesus always moves and acts through Mary!

 

[Lief_Erikson]

OK, but I’m still trying to place the golden tumors (or hemorrhoids). For the life of me, I can’t find a link.

This represents Christ’s victory over sin and death. Out of divine justice, God afflicted the Philistines with rats and tumors. These brought death to the people. In the same way, in divine justice, humanity is punished with death for its sin. However, the idol of Dagon fell down on its face before the Manna, Staff and Law, and its hands (reflecting his power to dominate the world) were broken off, along with its head (1 Sam. 5:4), reflecting the prophecy in Genesis 3:15. In the same way, in the Passion, when the Bread of Heaven, High Priest and Word of God came in the flesh, Satan fell on his face before him, his power to rule the world broken, and his head crushed.

When we turn our sins over to Jesus and trust in His Mercy, our souls are saved. In the same way, when the Philistines placed with golden tumors and rats (representing the causes of their destruction) with the Manna, Staff and Law, death ceased to afflict their people. The Philistines were saved because they gave the Lord the causes of their destruction (as we deliver to Him our sin). Christ overcame Dagon in their midst, as He overcame Satan through the Passion, and then He “ascended” from the land of the Philistines to Jerusalem, along with the Ark of His Covenant, just as the triumphant Jesus ascended into Heaven, along with the Ark of His Covenant (Psalm 132:8).

Ephesians 4:8 says that when Christ ascended on high, He brought captives with Him, in His train. He has conquered evil in us and made all that is wicked His captive. Rev. 1:18 says He has the keys of Death and Hell. God be praised! This triumph over evil is reflected by the triumphal return of the Manna, Law and Staff to Jerusalem, along with captives in its train, golden rats and tumors, which represent the plagues that brought death to the Philistines, and which represent the sin that brings death to us all.

This account presents Mary’s enormously powerful role in the Mystery of Redemption, through which Christ saved us all, through its presentation of the Ark’s role along with its contents in defeating Dagon and receiving glory along with its contents, through the offering of gold tumors and rats. The account also foreshadows her Assumption, for the Ark and its contents are raised together into Jerusalem.

Most importantly, this account greatly glorifies Christ, representing His Incarnation (the coming of God into the sinful world of the Philistines), His Passion (Dagon’s fall), His victory over sin (the gold tumors and rats), His Resurrection (the time in Obed’s house) and His glorious Ascension (the journey to Jerusalem).

 

[beehumble]

The figure of the pregnant woman in Re 12 does not reference Mary. It may seem attractive to those who venerate her (not me), but as you have indicated it involves problems. You then have to deal with the reference to “the rest of her children” which does not agree with Roman Catholic dogma. It should be noted that this figure is drawn from the OT story of Joseph’s dream. In Joseph’s dream it was the sun and the moon and 11 stars since Joseph himself would not be included. Here, however, Joseph is included so that there are 12 stars.

Instead, the pregnant woman is the symbol of the divine preparation for both the Jewish people and the Church. Christ is of course symbolized by the male child who is snatched up into heaven. To attempt to historicize the symbols of Revelation is a mistake (such as referencing the flight into the desert as the Flight into Egypt).

At least on one level (maybe more?) it references Blessed Mary because it specifically says she gave birth to the male child that can only be Christ. I do agree that it is difficult to try to follow it as if it was a history.

 

[LongJohnSilver]

Very enlightening, Lief Erikson, thanks a lot. Do you have more of this good stuff?

 

[beehumble]

On future posts, we will look at the difficulty posed by the labor pains of the woman. Afterward, we will look at the message of chapter 12.

Waiting (lurking?) for those future posts!

Philipmarie - “This, I think explains why the ‘sign’ of revelation seems to speak simultanously about the Blessed Virgin and the Church. What do you think. Right now, I can’t answer much. I’m working on my book so it could be a while for an answer to be sent.”

I’m curious, what book? you mentioned you are working on a book?

 

[nordskoven]

The Jewish canonical year is 360 days (probably, I believe, dating from the time when the Earth’s orbit was different) so the first reference is as the second: 3.5 years as 360 days. The “peace treaty” is broken after 3.5 years, is it not?

Father William G. Most was wont to ask, “Why was Jesus Jewish?” Jesus was Jewish because His mother was Jewish, lineage being accounted through the female. The Virgin Mary fulfills Genesis 3:15 with Christ is described with a collective term, Seed, i.e., Christ and His spiritual brothers and sisters. The Virgin Mary is Christ’s mother and our own as central to the covenant promised to and through the Jews by which Gentiles are ingrafted as adopted children. Adopted children carried full sonship rights of old, and was no second class status.

The Virgin Mary is called “blessed among women” not “blessed above women” as was Hannah, the prophet Samuel’s mom. So the Virgin Mary singularly and with all holy women, fulfills Genesis 3:15, uniquely but not solely.

Males must not cozy up to this idea of the Virgin Mary as their spouse as the Woman is the Spouse of the Holy Spirit, Who can tolerate nor forgive any sin as can Abba and Jesus Christ. The Virgin Mary precedes us in enjoying spousal unity with divinity; something Christ’s Bride, the Church, will enjoy upon His Second Coming. The Blessed Virgin is the Mother of Man…and men; not spouse. The Immaculate alone is fit to enjoy spousal unity with the Holy Spirit.

As the Queen of Angels, the narrative of the Great Sign sweeps us along the roiling turmoil that includes holy angels vanquishing demonic rebels, casting them to Earth. Woe! Man will judge the angels though created a little less than the angels; and the Woman, personification of wisdom, will be like a Deborah, a judge; and central to the fulfillment of Genesis 3:15 as God’s curse upon Lucifer and his spiritual children, his “seed.”

Marriage was the first sacrament and will be the last as we unite with Christ, please God. “Apocalypse” refers to marital unveiling, as Hahn notes. May the Queen of Angels and Mother of Mankind preserve us through any persecution as her “other children.”

 

[Lief_Erikson]

Males must not cozy up to this idea of the Virgin Mary as their spouse as the Woman is the Spouse of the Holy Spirit, Who can tolerate nor forgive any sin as can Abba and Jesus Christ. The Virgin Mary precedes us in enjoying spousal unity with divinity; something Christ’s Bride, the Church, will enjoy upon His Second Coming. The Blessed Virgin is the Mother of Man…and men; not spouse. The Immaculate alone is fit to enjoy spousal unity with the Holy Spirit.

Can you show me anything official about this? Because I found a quote from St. Alphonsus Liguori that suggests he felt it is valid to see Mary as our spiritual bride.

“The brother of a king of Hungary used daily to recite the office of Mary. He once fell dangerously ill, and then made a vow of chastity to the Blessed Virgin if she would restore him to health, and he immediately recovered. His brother, however, afterwards died, and he was going to be married; but just before the celebration of the nuptials he retired to his room to say his accustomed office. When he came to these words in it, ‘How beautiful art thou, and how comely!’ he saw Mary, who said, ‘If I am beautiful as thou sayest, why dost thou now leave me for another spouse? Know if thou leavest her, thou shalt have me for a spouse, and the kingdom of heaven instead of that of Hungary.’ The prince then fled to a desert near Aquileia, where he lived a holy life.”

Mary is the great type of the Church, and men, through their royal priesthood, are encouraged to love the Church in a spousal way. Therefore it seems natural that we should not restrict our spousal devotion from the great representative and archetype of the Church.

We look on Jesus as our child (if we bring Him forth into the world after bearing Him in our bodies in the Eucharist), as our Father (He created us), our brother (Mary is our universal Mother and God our universal Father), and our spouse (we are all one Bride of Christ, united with Him).

Similarly, we can bring Mary forth into the world by spreading Marian devotion, so she can be our holy child. We share one Father with her, so she is our sister. She also is our Mother. And it seems she can be our spouse.

The same can be said of our relationship to the Catholic Church. She is our Mother. She is our Daughter, for we bring her forth in the world in the souls of others, she is our Sister, for we share her two parents, God and Mary, and she is our Bride, for through our union with Christ her Spouse, she is our Bride (more on this is in my next post, in my quote from John Paul II).

These are all simply human terms we might use to try to get at spiritual realities. When you look at the powerful passion with which the saints were in love with Mary, and how stalwartly they defended her honor, it seems clear to me that there is a spousal devotion burning in their hearts. They love her, nourish her in the faithful, and they defend and fight for her as men would for their most beloved spouse. Marian priests vigorously defend her and her Son in souls, even as Joseph defended the Holy Family from Herod.

The fact is that we are deeply, intimately united with Jesus, Mary and the Church. We can describe this relationship with a lot of different words. I don’t think that “spouse” is banned in the case of Mary, though I would like to know, if this is the case.

More in the next post . . .

 

[Lief_Erikson]

Now in more detail about our unity with the Church, and Mary as representative of the Church . . . St. Louis de Montfort, and others, state very clearly that Mary is the Bride of Christ, as well as in a particular way the Spouse of the Holy Spirit. We are all gloriously united with Christ. Mary is Christ’s Bride as the Church is the Christ’s Bride. The Church calls on all priests to share in the spiritual marriage of Christ to His Church.

Here’s what Pope John Paul II said about our spousal union with the Church:
PASTORES DABO VOBIS:

Christ’s gift of himself to his Church, the fruit of his love, is described in terms of that unique gift of self made by the Bridegroom to the Bride, as the sacred texts often suggest. who offers to the Church the wine of salvation (cf. Jn 2:11). He who is “the Head of the Church, his body, and is himself its Saviour” (Eph 5:23) “loved the Church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, that he might present the Church to himself in splendour, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish” (Eph 5:25-27). The Church is indeed the body in which Christ the Head is present and active, but she is also the Bride who proceeds like a new Eve from the open side of the Redeemer on the Cross.

Hence Christ stands “before” the Church, and “nourishes and cherishes her” (Eph 5:29), giving his life for her. The priest is called to be the living image of Jesus Christ, the Spouse of the Church.[49] Of course, he will always remain a member of the community as a believer alongside his other brothers and sisters who have been called by the Spirit, but in virtue of his configuration to Christ, the Head and Shepherd, the priest stands in this spousal relationship with regard to the community. “Inasmuch as he represents Christ, the Head, Shepherd and Spouse of the Church, the priest is placed not only in the Church but also in the forefront of the Church”.[50] In his spiritual life, therefore, he is called to live out Christ’s spousal love towards the Church, his Bride. Therefore, the priest’s life ought to radiate this spousal character which demands that he be a witness to Christ’s spousal love, and thus be capable of loving people with a heart which is new, generous and pure, with genuine self-detachment, with full, constant and faithful dedication and at the same time with a kind of “divine jealousy” (cf. 2 Cor 11:2), and even with a kind of maternal tenderness, capable of bearing “the pangs of birth” until “Christ be formed” in the faithful (cf. Gal 4:19).

Vatican II says there are both a universal and a ministerial priesthood, in which Catholics are united to the High Priest. All of us are part of the universal priesthood, whereas the ministerial priesthood involves only those men that have been ordained into Holy Orders. Intimate, spousal love for the Church should be part of every man’s life, whether they are part of only the universal or also the ministerial priesthood.

In light of what the Church says about our relationship with the Church as our bride, and in light of Mary’s identity as archetype of the Church, it makes sense that we should love her as our own spouse. She is Christ’s Spouse; the Church is Christ’s Spouse, and we, through our union with His Priesthood, are united with this holy and beautiful Spouse, which to Him is one united and most glorious creature, Mary in the Church and the Church in Mary, many souls intimately united, like the Trinity is.

We are committed to defending this beautiful woman, caring for her in souls, nurturing her as she grows to adulthood, caring for her when she is grown (as God did for Israel), and treasuring her as our spouse (as God did Israel, once she was grown), giving everything for her, as Christ did for the Church.

While all of us are spouses of Christ, Mary is uniquely so, and while all of us are intimately united with the Holy Spirit, Mary alone is in a unique way His Spouse. Yet we all share everything Jesus and Mary possess through our unity with them, the complete Trinitarian unity Jesus purposed to create in mankind (John 17:22).

Dearest Mother, I hope that I have not offended you by any of these words; if I have, please correct me so that I can understand your correction and lead me into deeper intimacy with truth.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

Very enlightening, Lief Erikson, thanks a lot. Do you have more of this good stuff?

Sure .

I’m planning to write a few articles on the Examiner about Sarah, Rebekah and Rachel as types of Mary, and about how they show clearly that Mary is Mother of all Christians. I’ll post the link here when I’ve finished the articles. It could take me a while to get through writing them, but I plan on doing it .

 

[nordskoven]

Jewish law paralleled Church and western law until the 20th century: a marriage engagement was binding. If there was a breach of promise, this binding vow, the Church might levy a reprimand; the state might find for damages. Saint Joseph and the Blessed Mother were legally bound by a marriage engagement, and that froze their relationship in the state of perpetual chastity.

The Angelic Psalter, the words of the Archangel Gabriel to the Virgin Mary enthroned in the “Hail, Mary”; and the presence of “two sacred strangers” as witnesses (Abba and the Archangel Gabriel); and the Holy Spirit as her Spouse; show the confection of marriage consonant with Genesis 2 and the “Ancient Sacred Wedding Rite” of supposedly pagan times–decadent reflections of orthodox roots. The promise of a child to Sarah and Abraham via two sacred strangers and the proxy spouse refreshes the orthodoxy of the Ancient Sacred Wedding Rite per author Savinah Teubal. As with Genesis 2, the Spouse has left His home and family and approached the Woman (here used as the Genesis 3:15 title). The Virgin Mary was married to the Holy Spirit, and in a binding betrothal to Saint Joseph.

Saint Joseph complements the spiritual relationship with the Holy Spirit with his inspired revelatory dreams that guide him in protecting the Woman & Seed. “Seed” is a collective term referring to fulfillment in Jesus Christ and her “other children” that is the Bod of Christ of John’s Apocalypse. Jesus–and we–are Jewish because Mother Mary is Jewish, heirs of the New and Eternal Covenant.

Saint Joseph is the prototypical male, performing under Adam’s mandate of stewardship of life. Jesus fulfilled the mandate of the Second Adam, sinlessly laying down His life for women and children, for the Church. The binding, chaste betrothal to Saint Joseph reflects the spousal relationship emulated here on Earth. The Virgin Mary is the Mother of the Church, Spouse of the Holy Spirit, and already shares spousal unity with divinity we will, please God, share with Jesus Christ as His spotless Bride.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

Is what you said above supposed to contradict what I wrote? Sorry if I’m being dense, but if there is a contradiction, I presently don’t see it.

The unity of souls in Heaven, or between Heaven and Earth, fulfills earthly marriage, which is a type of the deep intimacy and unity between souls, and between us and Jesus, that exists in Heaven.

As far as earthly marriage is concerned, Mary couldn’t be married to anyone other than Joseph. That is true. Yet spiritually, her union with God and souls went far beyond earthly limits. Earthly marriage relationships don’t exist in Heaven (Matt. 22:30). Mary’s marital union with Jesus and the Holy Spirit does not violate her marital obligation to Joseph, any more than our spiritual marriages with Jesus violate our earthly marriages to our earthly spouses. Similarly, Mary’s union with souls does not violate her union with either the Spirit, Jesus or Joseph. In fact, her union with souls is part of her marital union with Jesus, because Jesus is her Bridegroom, and we are all united with Him.

 

[nordskoven]

*“How long will you wander, O unfaithful daughter? The Lord will create a new thing on earth–a woman will surround a man.” Jeremiah 31:22

*Everybody knows where the Woman (titular) came from…the cloning and, if the literal translation of refining is used, gene tweaking from Adam’s living flesh. What great science–God deserves the utmost respect for revealing the mysteries of life to us. The prophecy of Jeremiah announces something startling, something he wishes to use to jolt the women of his day to live up to. Woman will surround/encircle/circumscribe a man!

Here is the Virgin Mary, the living tabernacle who, at the word of the Archangel Gabriel and her assenting FIAT, surrounds the Man. Here is the Queen of Angels and the Mother of Man. The Woman’s “other children” are mentioned in John’s Apocalypse. We share sonship with the Son of Man as the Virgin’s spiritual children: she is the Mother of the Church, and not properly the spouse of Christ. And this is that wonderful thing Jeremiah spoke of with his stunning shock and awe announcement that is the homely and profound event Isaiah 7:14 foretold with the virgin conceiving a Child, the miracle God Himself chose to impress mankind through King Hezekiah.

The Woman encircled Man. This is the mechanism by which the Virgin is the Mother of the Church which Christ will, as drawn from His own flesh, unite in the spousal unity of two becoming one. Christ is from her flesh, as Jeremiah reveals. The Virgin is not only the Immaculate Conception created sinless as was the Woman of Genesis. As the Immaculate Heart, by God’s grace, she preserves her sinless state, worthy of spousal unity with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit can neither tolerate nor forgive any sin against His Person, let alone with one united in spousal unity with His Person as is the Virgin Mary.

PS I just watched a travelogue on Turkey where water is thrown after departing visitors to bless them on their way. (They also noted that Christians hid in the wilderness caves of Cappadocia.) The blessing of water becomes profaned in trying to drown the Woman & Seed!

Immaculate Heart, reign and rule in all hearts, bringing them to God in loving obedience!

 

[James224]

I have a question for anyone here who might know the answer. This question may be obscure, a bit, so I won’t be surprised if it’s a difficult one.

In Revelation 12:6, we read that after giving birth to Jesus, Mary “fled into the desert where she had a place prepared by God, that there she might be taken care of for twelve hundred and sixty days.” This would be Mary’s flight into the desert between Israel and Egypt, where she escaped the dragon, who was seeking to “devour” the child through Herod’s killers, and remained in hiding for a time with Joseph and the Christ-child.

Thus far, the chapter seems clear enough.

But then, later in the chapter, we read of the woman making another flight into a desert.

Revelation 12

13
When the dragon saw that it had been thrown down to the earth, it pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child.
14
But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle, so that she could fly to her place in the desert, where, far from the serpent, she was taken care of for a year, two years, and a half-year.
15
The serpent, however, spewed a torrent of water out of his mouth after the woman to sweep her away with the current.
16
But the earth helped the woman and opened its mouth and swallowed the flood that the dragon spewed out of its mouth.
17
Then the dragon became angry with the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring, those who keep God’s commandments and bear witness to Jesus.
18
It took its position on the sand of the sea.

The verses above, I fail to understand. Part of the reason for this, no doubt, is the great sketchiness on the Biblical witness as to Mary’s later life, after Jesus’ infancy. We read about her role in the Miracle at Cana and a little about her role at Golgotha. Then we read that she was present at the Ascension of Jesus and at Pentecost, praying with the believers. All these pieces of information are important, though I don’t see how they fit into the account above, if they do at all.

I’ve heard speculation that the woman being given wings like an eagle to fly into the desert is a reference to her Assumption. Maybe that is a secondary meaning, but the difficulty I have with that being a primary meaning is twofold. One is that a “desert” seems a strange way to refer to Heaven, and the second, more important, reason is that the verse appears to describe this place of protection against the devil as being a temporary respite, followed in verses 15 and 16 by more battle.

Could it be that the passage is repeating pieces of information it has already related? In this case both flights into the desert would be the flight to Egypt, and the flood pouring forth from the dragon’s mouth could be interpreted as his onslaught against her at Golgotha. The earth could be said to have swallowed up the flood by opening its mouth to release Christ (the tombstone was rolled aside), and the power of death was destroyed.

That’s just a theory. I don’t understand these verses, or the organization of the chapter, all that well. Any additional ideas or information would be appreciated!

If anyone knows if the saints have written on this part of the chapter, I’d be curious to see what they say as well.

You said “I’ve heard speculation that the woman being given wings like an eagle to fly into the desert is a reference to her Assumption”. I think Apoc 11:19 and 12:1 implies Mary’s Assumption in the sense that Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant and it was seen in heaven. What chapter 12 is doing is going back to the beginning before creation and describing the fall of the angels from heaven and put on earth. Then the fall of man by the temptation of the dragon - satan.Then it picks up with the battle on earth with Mary and the Child Jesus fleeing in the desert. Interestingly, it says in Apoc 12:17, “And the dragon was angry against the woman: and went to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.” This points to Mary as the Mother of us all!! Usually you don’t refer to the seed of a woman. This points back to the prophecy of Gen 3:15 which says, " I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel." Mary is the New Eve who will repair what Eve damaged. Eve was active in bringing sin into the world so Mary, the New Eve, is active in the restoration. This is Co-Redemptrix according to Fr William Most.

 

[beehumble]

Posted by Mathetes2010
On future posts, we will look at the difficulty posed by the labor pains of the woman. Afterward, we will look at the message of chapter 12.

Philipmarie - “This, I think explains why the ‘sign’ of revelation seems to speak simultanously about the Blessed Virgin and the Church. What do you think. Right now, I can’t answer much. I’m working on my book so it could be a while for an answer to be sent.”

I’m curious, what book? you mentioned you are working on a book?

Still lurking because it sounds like Mathetes2010 next posts might also be interesting and enlightening!

 

[Lief_Erikson]

Thanks for your description of the passage in Jeremiah, nordskoven. That prophecy is indeed beautiful and important in its implications. I hadn’t thought before about how “woman” in that prophecy is titular, and all mankind is “surrounded” in the promise that “a woman will surround a man.”

I love how you also draw together the Immaculate Conception of the first Eve with the graces given the New Eve. Mary is the Immaculate Heart, and in the end, she will triumph . Jesus will triumph through her.

None of this contradicts the view that Mary has a spousal relationship with Jesus, or anything else I said. The saints are clear in their statements that Mary is the Bride of Christ, and that we are too, though to a lesser degree than Mary, for she is the archetype of the Church.

We sometimes use human language to describe heavenly relationships, and in doing so, there are serious weaknesses. Jesus has entered into “mystical marriage” with countless saints, and yet He is fully monogamous. Spiritual marriage is not the same as earthly marriage. The Church is called to Trinitarian unity, as Jesus made clear in John 17. We are all called to share Trinitarian unity with one another. This is unity deeper than marriage, unity that earthly marriage merely foreshadows.

God be praised .

 

[Lief_Erikson]

You said “I’ve heard speculation that the woman being given wings like an eagle to fly into the desert is a reference to her Assumption”. I think Apoc 11:19 and 12:1 implies Mary’s Assumption in the sense that Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant and it was seen in heaven.

That’s interesting. I expect Protestants would find it weak, because they would argue (if they believed she is the Ark) that her soul is in Heaven, but not her body, and they would say that this could fulfill Rev. 11:19 and 12:1 as well.

What chapter 12 is doing is going back to the beginning before creation and describing the fall of the angels from heaven and put on earth. Then the fall of man by the temptation of the dragon - satan.Then it picks up with the battle on earth with Mary and the Child Jesus fleeing in the desert.

Interesting thoughts. I hadn’t thought about how directly it blends the events of the first Adam and Eve with the events of the Second Adam and Eve. I’ll want to think more on this.

Interestingly, it says in Apoc 12:17, “And the dragon was angry against the woman: and went to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.” This points to Mary as the Mother of us all!! Usually you don’t refer to the seed of a woman. This points back to the prophecy of Gen 3:15 which says, " I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel."

That is a good point. I hadn’t thought of that one, of how the Rev. 12 “woman’s seed” can only refer directly to the Virgin Birth and the Messianic prophecy of Gen. 3:15. I knew this was a reflection on Gen. 3:15, but I didn’t notice the reference to a “woman’s seed,” in Rev. 12. I believe Gen. 3:15 is the only other place in the Bible where it describes a woman’s seed. It is a direct reference to the Virgin Birth, for in this birth is the only place where the seed belongs to the woman and not to a man. Therefore you’re right, Rev. 12’s reference to the “woman’s seed” can only refer to the Virgin Birth.

I’m hoping to write a book on Marian typology. I’ll definitely include this point you made, if I get around to writing it.

Thank-you for enlightening me on this! I very much appreciate it .

Mary is the New Eve who will repair what Eve damaged. Eve was active in bringing sin into the world so Mary, the New Eve, is active in the restoration. This is Co-Redemptrix according to Fr William Most.

 

[philipmarie]

Please, let us stick to the topic instead of my book. But, if you want to see my book, go to this thread: I’m writing a book, HELP ME! As for now, I’m not speaking about it so as to NOT distract us away from Mary.

Speaking of books, everybody here has heard of the Da Vinci Code, that blasphemous novel and film by Dan Brown(it’s so badly written that it should be called The Dan Brown Code!)

It was about some detective who went on a quest to discover the Holy Grail, using a ‘code’ left by Leonardo Da Vinci in his works, while racing against time so the ‘evil’ Catholic Church does not discover it before he does… only to find out that Jesus married Mary Magdalene and that the Holy Grail is not some object or relic but the bloodline of Jesus and Magdalene.

This is blasphemous(and hypocrital. Dan Brown only wrote the book so that he may be regarded famous as an immense charlatan). But, it did give me a few thoughts while reading about it(I myself did not read the book but I did read a few articles on it, by the way).

Nobody knows whether the Grail is the same object which Jesus drank out from at the Last Supper(the Holy Chailice), but I don’t think it is. It is said that the Holy Grail collected the blood of Jesus in it and he whoever drinks out of it will live forever. I don’t think that the Grail Grail is real or that the Holy Chalice actually collected the blood of Jesus in it but, I think that the Holy Grail is a symbol of the Blessed Virgin.

Just look: the Holy Grail collected the blood of Christ in it; Mary is the Mediatrix of all grace, and the treasurer of God’s graces, accodring to the Saints. The blood of Jesus is a symbol of the graces, merits and virtues which He obtained from His Father, and He gave these same treasures unto Mary so that She may give them unto us. As Saint Augustine said: the world was not worthy to recieve the Son directly from the Father, so he gave Him [Jesus] unto Mary so that She may give Him unto us.

The Grail is probably made out of very expensive materials; so is Mary, who, according to Saint Bonaventure, is so decorated with love and grace and honor that not even God Himself can exalt Her anymore. She’s Immaculate.

Whoever drinks out of the Grail will live forever; of course, nobody in his mortal body can live forever, else, there would be no last Judgement for him and no heaven. But, one can live forever by going to heaven and since devotion towards the Blessed Virgin is a great sign of predestination and since She is the Mother of Mercy and the Mediatrix of all grace… it was said of Her: He that shall find me, shall find life, and shall have salvation from the Lord(Prov, 8;35)… there is even more evidence that the Blessed Virgin could be the Holy Grail itself.

 

[excubitor]

Revelation 12: 13
When the dragon saw that it had been thrown down to the earth, it pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child.
14
But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle, so that she could fly to her place in the desert, where, far from the serpent, she was taken care of for a year, two years, and a half-year.
15
The serpent, however, spewed a torrent of water out of his mouth after the woman to sweep her away with the current.
16
But the earth helped the woman and opened its mouth and swallowed the flood that the dragon spewed out of its mouth.
17
Then the dragon became angry with the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring, those who keep God’s commandments and bear witness to Jesus.
18
It took its position on the sand of the sea.

The verses above, I fail to understand. Part of the reason for this, no doubt, is the great sketchiness on the Biblical witness as to Mary’s later life, after Jesus’ infancy. We read about her role in the Miracle at Cana and a little about her role at Golgotha. Then we read that she was present at the Ascension of Jesus and at Pentecost, praying with the believers. All these pieces of information are important, though I don’t see how they fit into the account above, if they do at all.

The church does not dogmatically state that this passage refers entirely to Mary. The women in Revelation is a kind of amalgam of Israel, Mary and the church. Many Catholics quite properly believe that this women in Rev 12 is principally Mary who is the personification of Israel and the Church. This is my belief.

I have a personal conjecture that this passage that concerns you is also a prophecy of an end time flight of the Church (the woman) into a wilderness area or perhaps into wildernesses around the world to flee the persecutions of the antichrist. In fury the antichrist pursues the church but the forces of the antichrist (who is the agent of Satan) are destroyed so that he cannot overcome the Church fleeing into the wilderness. The church will then be sheltered in the wilderness for the time of the Great Tribulation. This all has shades of Ancient Israel fleeing into the wilderness to prepare for entry into the promised land.

However not all of the Church escapes into the wilderness and those who have failed to flee are persecuted with great fury by the antichrist. Proof that those who are persecuted are Christians is found in verse 17 which states that they have the testimony of Jesus Christ. So this event is certainly a post-Christ event and as it does not mirror any event to this point it must still be yet future.

Naturally this is speculation. There are quite a few additional reasons why I favour this interpretation. Jesus prophecies end time events and states this.
*Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
*
So clearly it is possible to escape the persecutions of the antichrist in the end days.

Another reference of Jesus states that the end days will be like the days of Lot.
*28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
*
What happened to Lot?
An angel tapped him on the shoulder and said “Time to go”. He had to flee into the wilderness and not even look back, just like Jesus says not to even go into your house to get a coat. Just turn your back on your home, city, pets, possessions and follow the angel into the wasteland. How many of us could do this? How many of us would be like Lot’s wife who turned back and was turned into a pillar of salt?

Therefore if we believe this then how will we live our lives? Certainly not by accumulating possessions which one day we might need to turn our back upon.

So I see an end time congregation of the Church in the wilderness. With angels hovering over them guarding them from the hordes of the antichrist. I believe that this is what this strange allusion means.

*Luke 17:37 Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.
*
The body being the body of Christ. Again this is a allusion to the flight of the Israelites from Egypt.
*Exodus 19:4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles’ wings, and brought you unto myself.
*
and this passage that we have already been reading.
Revelation 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

 

[nordskoven]

Father William G. Most’s beautiful exposition of all things Marian, including her cooperation with redemption–something we are all called to do–is not to be confused with the condemned Dutch seer, Ida Peerdeman, and the “Final Dogma” of “The Lady of All Nations Who Once Was Mary: Co-redemptrix, Mediatrix & Advocate.” Peerdeman’s fist-shaking “Mary” demands the adoption of this “Final Dogma”, a far cry from Our Lady of the Rosary requesting Peter and all bishops consecrate Russia to her Immaculate Heart, promising to convert that nation. The Virgin Mary is herself subject to Jesus Christ and His Church, a queen who petitions her Son, not a fist-shaking harridan. The Fatima apparition particularly fulfills Apocalypse 12 as she is “clothed with the Sun.” When Father McGlynn created a statue under the direction of Sister Lucia, she particularly mentioned her clothing was of living light, and McGlynn made wavy, shimmering lines on his model. This is the depiction at the Fatima Basilica, her ethnic Hebrew beauty is distinct versus the stylized beauty of the Fatima Pilgrim Virgin statue. Another apparition that directly references Apocalypse 12 is that of Knock, Ireland, with Our Lady appearing in a tableaux flanked by St. Patrick as bishop and John the Beloved with the Apocalypse open in his hands.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

excubitor, I’m pretty sure you’re right that the final apocalypse will closely parallel events described in the Old Testament, and (I think) events of the Book of Revelation as well. The books of Maccabees in particular describe the final conflicts between the people of God and the Anti-Christ. Antiochus is a figure of the Anti-Christ. 2 Maccabees 7 prophesies of how the Virgin Mary will help the Church to prevail against him. The persecutions of the woman in Rev. 12 probably also reflect this reality, among other truths.

philipmarie, my thought is it’s very silly for people to have been wondering all this time where that chalice is that contains Christ’s blood. Every Mass, we drink Christ’s blood and consequently receive eternal life!

Father William G. Most’s beautiful exposition of all things Marian, including her cooperation with redemption–something we are all called to do–is not to be confused with the condemned Dutch seer, Ida Peerdeman, and the “Final Dogma” of “The Lady of All Nations Who Once Was Mary: Co-redemptrix, Mediatrix & Advocate.” Peerdeman’s fist-shaking “Mary” demands the adoption of this “Final Dogma”, a far cry from Our Lady of the Rosary requesting Peter and all bishops consecrate Russia to her Immaculate Heart, promising to convert that nation. The Virgin Mary is herself subject to Jesus Christ and His Church, a queen who petitions her Son, not a fist-shaking harridan.

On what grounds do you say this apparition is condemned? From what I’ve read, the local bishop approved “The Lady of All Nations.”

The Fatima apparition particularly fulfills Apocalypse 12 as she is “clothed with the Sun.” When Father McGlynn created a statue under the direction of Sister Lucia, she particularly mentioned her clothing was of living light, and McGlynn made wavy, shimmering lines on his model. This is the depiction at the Fatima Basilica, her ethnic Hebrew beauty is distinct versus the stylized beauty of the Fatima Pilgrim Virgin statue. Another apparition that directly references Apocalypse 12 is that of Knock, Ireland, with Our Lady appearing in a tableaux flanked by St. Patrick as bishop and John the Beloved with the Apocalypse open in his hands.

That’s beautiful . Thanks for sharing it!