Some nagging "what ifs?" scenarios that keeps bugging me about the Resurrection. Need help

[WannabeSaint]

I’ve been having these nagging “what if?” scenarios about the resurrection.

It regards the empty tomb.

This would seem like a knockout punch for any doubter, but, I keep getting pestered by the possibility of the following scenarios happening or a combination of them all:

1. There are stories in Eastern spirituality about “enlightened” individuals being able to shrink to the size of an atom (so basically invisible to the naked eye). Perhaps that could have happened to Jesus’s body?
2. Perhaps Jesus’s body got trapped in another dimension?

3)Perhaps a deceptive spirit possessed an extremely convincing life-like replica of Christ’s body and bilocated into the tomb, pretending to be Jesus?

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

Yes, but people talked to Him after His resurrection, and touched Him, and He even ate food.

 

[End_Timer]

Satan managed to have Jesus crucified & he was powerless after that !
Everything afterward was in God’s hands.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

1. There are stories in Eastern spirituality about “enlightened” individuals being able to shrink to the size of an atom (so basically invisible to the naked eye). Perhaps that could have happened to Jesus’s body?
2. Perhaps Jesus’s body got trapped in another dimension?

3)Perhaps a deceptive spirit possessed an extremely convincing life-like replica of Christ’s body and bilocated into the tomb, pretending to be Jesus?

1. Jesus simply shrinking or being invisible in the tomb doesn’t explain that his body looked so different when he reappeared that his close friend Mary Magdalene, and his disciples on the road to Emmaus, didn’t recognize him. He was pretty clearly transformed when he reappeared. The apostles Peter, James and John would have recognized him right away because they had a preview of the “glorified” transformed Jesus at the Transfiguration. That’s why the Apostles recognized him as Jesus right away when he appeared to them.
2. Jesus went to another dimension of a sort when he went to Sheol and let all the righteous people there into Heaven. He obviously wasn’t “trapped” anyplace since he returned to Earth.
3. Deceptive spirits don’t found churches in honor of God the Father that last for 2000 years. Furthermore, Jesus’ mother Mary, who was sinless and always did God’s will, would have been warned and protected by God from any deceptive or demonic spirit. No such thing happened.

 

[VeryBlessed]

I wouldn’t base your faith on this, but you might look at some documentaries about the shroud. Scientific teams have studied it and say that the image on the cloth was created by a tremendous release of energy from the body within the cloth. The image is not printed on the fabric it’s rather in the very essence of the fibers themselves. Like I said, I wouldn’t come to faith just because of that, but it really does point to the fact that something happened inside that shroud that science can’t explain. As to your other scenarios about Shrinking to the size of an Atom or going into another dimension, I guess I find the resurrection a lot more reasonable than either of those. For me it will take much more faith to believe either of those scenarios than simply believe that he rose from the deaf. After all, he raised Lazarus and at least one other person, and even his enemies did not dispute that he did so. And virtually all of the disciples were martyred rather than renounce their belief that Jesus rose from the dead. People do not die a martyr for a lie.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

As to your other scenarios about Shrinking to the size of an Atom or going into another dimension, I guess I find the resurrection a lot more reasonable than either of those

Yeah, I thought the same. Why would you come up with these crazy science fiction theories instead of just accepting the Resurrection, which was pretty much completely prefigured by Lazarus being raised? And Jesus raising several other people from the dead?

 

[Pattylt]

People do not die a martyr for a lie.

Be very careful here. Unless you are willing to grant truth to any belief where people have died for it. Every religion seems to have martyrs and one group died for a comet that was going to take them away…

 

[VeryBlessed]

Let me ask you this, OP. Is there some other, deeper reason that might be causing you to resist belief and faith? Is there something else that makes embracing the faith difficult ? Like maybe the fear of having to give something up? So often, unusual or unanswerable “objections” are a cover for a more personal and deep difficulty.

Be sure to ask God to show himself to you, and to lead you into all truth. God says, you WILL find me when you seek me with ALL your heart. He wants to be found by you…

 

[VeryBlessed]

People do not die a martyr for a lie.

You’re absolutely right. But I was thinking of a deliberate deception on the part of the disciples, rather than an honest belief in a clever falsehood. But good point! We should think through what we say…

 

[Pattylt]

Thanks. There is much that I don’t believe in regards to the Gospels but one thing I don’t doubt is that they really believed what they claimed.

 

[Zaccheus]

People do not die a martyr for a lie.

Be very careful here. Unless you are willing to grant truth to any belief where people have died for it. Every religion seems to have martyrs and one group died for a comet that was going to take them away…

People can die for somebody else’s lie that the martyrs have been made to believe. But how many people would die for a lie that they themselves concocted, and knew quite well was a lie?

It was the Apostles who told people Christ had risen. If they were lying why would they endure such tortures and hardships, and finally go willingly to their deaths to support their own lies?

 

[Pattylt]

Did you read my post right above yours? I have no doubt that the martyrs died for what they believed…as all martyrs do. I’ve never felt that the Apostles were lying or trying to deceive anyone.

 

[VeryBlessed]

Well, PattyIt, I’m glad you’re here, honest doubts and all. I think all of us who consider ourselves “in” the faith had to get there through a gauntlet of doubts - and some more than others. My own faith is only half intellectual ascent. The other half is experiential - learning to trust that all those words and themes in the Bible are actually true for ME too. It’s not that different, really, than learning to trust someone you’re considering entering into a romantic relationship with. We want to know - are you really what you seem to be? I think that God really REALLY likes the honest doubters. Perhaps beneath those doubts is a deep longing for genuine, real truth.

 

[lelinator]

Thanks. There is much that I don’t believe in regards to the Gospels but one thing I don’t doubt is that they really believed what they claimed.

Personally, I think that most of the stories about the apostles are at best exaggerations, and are more likely pure fabrication. I don’t trust anything that’s been edited, dictated, and attested to by the Catholic Church.

Sorry, but I don’t find the Catholic Church to be a credible source of information about the early years of Christianity. Before I can even begin to consider the motives of the apostles, I must first consider the history and motives of the Catholic Church. Now some might consider such skepticism to be a bit extreme, but I think that any prudent examination of the evidence must begin with an examination of its source. On that front I find the Catholic Church to be untrustworthy.

Sorry

 

[VeryBlessed]

Lelinator, you don’t have to be sorry about what you honestly think. But I guess what you said raises a question in my mind, and here it is. Is there any group of people that could live up to the standard that the Catholic Church, in your opinion, is falling short of? Do you have similar doubts about all of humanity, or just the church? Is it cynicism about most or all people? Because that I can totally understand. Because here’s the thing, there’s never been a perfect person in the history of the world except for, arguably, Jesus. If God is there, if he has been guiding the Catholic Church into truth for all these centuries, then he has had to have done so without having one single perfect person to work through. Only sinners, the blind, the selfish. Like me…

 

[steve-b]

I’ve been having these nagging “what if?” scenarios about the resurrection.

It regards the empty tomb.

This would seem like a knockout punch for any doubter, but, I keep getting pestered by the possibility of the following scenarios happening or a combination of them all:

1. There are stories in Eastern spirituality about “enlightened” individuals being able to shrink to the size of an atom (so basically invisible to the naked eye). Perhaps that could have happened to Jesus’s body?
2. Perhaps Jesus’s body got trapped in another dimension?

3)Perhaps a deceptive spirit possessed an extremely convincing life-like replica of Christ’s body and bilocated into the tomb, pretending to be Jesus?

Thomas was a big time doubter. Jesus ended that, HERE

That said, maybe Jesus gave Thomas a huge break because he was an apostle. I personally, wouldn’t recommend anyone put God to a challenge like Thomas did. Just sayin

 

[lelinator]

Lelinator, you don’t have to be sorry about what you honestly think. But I guess what you said raises a question in my mind, and here it is. Is there any group of people that could live up to the standard that the Catholic Church, in your opinion, is falling short of? Do you have similar doubts about all of humanity, or just the church? Is it cynicism about most or all people? Because that I can totally understand.

That’s an easy one to answer, I’m a solipsist. But to be more specific, lest I mislead you, I’m a Christian solipsist. Which means that I question everything. This doesn’t mean that I doubt everything, but I do question everything. So when someone asks why the apostles would suffer and die for a lie, I have to ask myself whether they actually did, or did someone, in this case the Catholic Church, create or embellish such stories so as to further their own agenda. Unfortunately, the church and its teachings are so entrenched in our collective consciousness that it’s probably impossible to differentiate fact from fiction at this point. But the history of institutions such as the Catholic Church would tend toward the conclusion that much of what the church teaches isn’t as factual as its proponents purport it to be.

Because here’s the thing, there’s never been a perfect person in the history of the world except for, arguably, Jesus. If God is there, if he has been guiding the Catholic Church into truth for all these centuries, then he has had to have done so without having one single perfect person to work through. Only sinners, the blind, the selfish. Like me…

The Catholic Church will of course argue that God has been guiding it for all these years, but even a devout Catholic should understand why a person might be skeptical of such a self-serving claim, especially given the Catholic Church’s history.

So forgive me for having such a dismissive attitude toward the Catholic Church, but I see no reason to give its stories any credibility. Because the Catholic Church derives much of its legitimacy from those stories, and so it’s in its best interest to embellish them. Therefore they cannot be trusted.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I think that God really REALLY likes the honest doubters. Perhaps beneath those doubts is a deep longing for genuine, real truth.

I think God really REALLY likes all of us, whether we doubt or not.
The idea that doubt means you’re somehow more invested in the faith is not necessarily true.
God doesn’t see fit to give all of us big doubts.
Some of us may have small doubts, some of us little or no doubt but probably a struggle with something else.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I would note that the entire discussion of doubt in general is veering way off topic of the OP’s original question. Unfortunately I too contributed to the veering, for which I apologize.

Probably best to focus on the original questions of the OP and if one wants to have a discussion of people’s general doubts, start another thread. Too often on here I’m seeing an OP ask a question, then some non-Catholics come on and start up a discussion on some other general unrelated point, and the OP’s original question gets ignored when everybody starts debating with the non-Catholics.

 

[po18guy]

Methinks you are overtihnking this - very common these days. Also, that you are consulting with non-believers.

How is that strategy supposed to help?