Some People more important to God than others?

[Enoch]

By your logic the verse should have went like this:

One of Jesus’ disciples, the one Jesus was well please with, was sitting next to Jesus at the table.
Are you a better scholar & linguist than the translator of the catholic bible?

No. To use the word “Love” is perfectly fine. Quit making assumptions about me and putting words into my mouth.

John 13:23 (Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible)
Now there was leaning on Jesus’ bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved.

What is your authority?

The Catholic Church, of which nothing I’ve said contradicts.

1. says nothing about favoritism.
2. mary had a different nature in that she had no original sin, no sinful nature. is this a contradiction or what?

Ummm. “Equal in Dignity” means not to hold one as worth more than another; as in “No Favoritism”.

**dig•ni•ty ** /ˈdɪgnɪti/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[dig-ni-tee] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun, plural -ties. 1. bearing, conduct, or speech indicative of self-respect or appreciation of the formality or gravity of an occasion or situation.
2. nobility or elevation of character; worthiness: dignity of sentiments.
3. elevated rank, office, station, etc.
4. relative standing; rank.
5. a sign or token of respect: an impertinent question unworthy of the dignity of an answer.
6. Archaic. a. person of high rank or title.
b. such persons collectively.

**dig·ni·ty ** (dĭg’nĭ-tē) Pronunciation Key
n. pl. dig·ni·ties

**The quality or state of being worthy of esteem or respect. **Inherent nobility and worth: the dignity of honest labor.

Poise and self-respect.
Stateliness and formality in manner and appearance.
The respect and honor associated with an important position.
A high office or rank.
dignities The ceremonial symbols and observances attached to high office.
Archaic A dignitary.

Mary was preserved from original sin for Christ’s sake not herself.

 

[AgnosTheist]

No. To use the word “Love” is perfectly fine. Quit making assumptions about me and putting words into my mouth.

So love is perfectly fine, rather than “fond or well pleased”?

Ummm. “Equal in Dignity” means not to hold one as worth more than another; as in “No Favoritism”.

i missed that one. ok youre right on that part. looks good on paper. lets see how it goes in practice…if god honors you equally with mary, then whats the point of her intermediatrix functions? why pray to her instead of praying to god directly?

Mary was preserved from original sin for Christ’s sake not herself.

still makes her of a different nature compared to you.

 

[BlaineTog]

i missed that one. ok youre right on that part. looks good on paper. lets see how it goes in practice…if god honors you equally with mary, then whats the point of her intermediatrix functions? why pray to her instead of praying to god directly?

Because God told us to. Because it’s much easier for many people to identify with other people than with God Himself, who’s more than a little abstract (from our current viewpoint, anyway). Because Mary wants to help us. There are probably other reasons.

 

[Enoch]

still makes her of a different nature compared to you.

Let’s say for the sake of argument that the fact that Mary was preserved from the stain of original sin changed her nature. That in no way means God loved her more. The only reason she was preserved from original sin is because she was the woman God created and consecrated to come into the world. In order for God to come into the world fully human He had to be born of a woman. **IT’S ALL ABOUT JESUS!!! **

Consecration does not = more love, it means to be set aside for a special purpose. In fact, Mary probably suffered more than most women in her lifetime. If God loved her more than others, how come He didn’t give her a life of endless pleasure and ecstasy instead of a sword through her heart?

 

[seekerz]

God’s love isn’t about who we are, it’s about who He is. His love is not parceled up like Christmas presents, with the bigger boxes going to the favorite child; rather, it is something unfathomable, bestowed on each of his creatures in all it’s fullness.

In the ideal relationship, we are fully His and He is fully ours; in non-ideal circumstances, the lack is always on our side - never on His. This love bond is mirrored (albeit imperfectly) by that of parents with children; because we are human, we may sometimes play favorites, but not so with God.

Going back to the OP’s concern about Africa, I have often wondered myself. However, my own experience (as well as a time spent poring over the Psalms of David) have led me to the conclusion that prosperity/comfort are not necessarily indications of how blessed a person is. Along with spiritual blessings can come agonizing suffering.

God gives to us in proportion to our roles in life, I believe, not in proportion to His love for us. To whom much is given, much will be expected. For those who suffer greatly, the beatitudes give them reason to hope…

If none of what I’ve said so far makes sense, think about this: the proportion of depression in advanced countries is similar to that in poor countries. If the life circumstances we enjoy relative to the world’s poor were indicators of our greater importance to God, why doesn’t that make us happier or mentally healthier?

I believe the reason God gives more of any good gift to any one person is so that he or she can share it. If God gave to us all equally, what would prompt us out of our self-contained shells to love and care for each other?

 

[AgnosTheist]

Because God told us to.

and ruins the whole premise of equality between mary & you.

Because it’s much easier for many people to identify with other people than with God Himself, who’s more than a little abstract (from our current viewpoint, anyway).

think about muslims and protestants.

 

[onetruechurch]

God created Mary and Eve in a similar manner. They both were given pure souls. In fact, if or when you were baptized you were given the same playing cards that Mary was born with. If you are an adult and have not been baptized you can get the same pure soul of Mary and Eve. (Same hand with all aces, kings and jacks) Once we receive the pure soul it is up to us to keep it clean and pure. 'Taint easy! It takes hard, painful, sometimes boring work to stay clean. Mary’s life was very difficult. I admire her…not envy her. I too was given my chance to stay pure but didn’t appreciate the gift. We need to think of Mary as our Mother who loves us and understands our defects. Just as I appreciate all the hard work my earthly mother did for my benefit I appreciate all the help Mary is giving me now. She loves you and me so much that she will ask God to give us all the graces necessary to reach heaven. She is still our humble mother and does not think she is any more loved than you. God’s love in infinite! There is nothing greater than infinite…no percentages such as 99% for Mary and .9999% for you. We all receive 100% of God’s infinite love!:grouphug:

 

[AgnosTheist]

^ Huh?

 

[BlaineTog]

and ruins the whole premise of equality between mary & you.

How? God told men to love their wives and children to obey their parents, and yet the woman and the man are still equal, and though the parent has authority over the child, they are still of equal worth. I really don’t see how your objection is anything but a total non sequitur.

think about muslims and protestants.

Ok. So?

 

[BlaineTog]

^ Huh?

Ok, basically, if I’m reading onetruechurch’s post correctly, God loves us all infinitely, which makes it nonsense to say that God loves one person more than another just as “infinity + 1” is absurd.

Put another way, you can love someone with either part or all of your self. If you love someone with your whole self, you cannot love them more than that, by definition. God loves us all with his whole self. Thus, he has the same amount of love for all of us.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

God’slove is infinite, but our capacity for receiving that love is probably finite. I suspect that we vary greatly in our capacity to accept that love. Some of that limit may be inate in us, but much depends on how we developed our capability to transmit love in this life.

 

[Polaris]

Yes God does love some more than others. Just like parents always love a child more than there other children. Also if you think about it thats exactly what positve predestination is. God gives some superabundant grace to ensure that they will be in heaven others He only gives the bare minimum. Those He wants to be in heaven get everything, the reprobates, is more like “well I gave you all you need, (the bare minimum) but who cares Its no you were going to fail anyways”

Like a child you just learn to accept that God may love you less than someone else. You cant do anything its His will.

 

[BlaineTog]

Yes God does love some more than others. Just like parents always love a child more than there other children. Also if you think about it thats exactly what positve predestination is. God gives some superabundant grace to ensure that they will be in heaven others He only gives the bare minimum. Those He wants to be in heaven get everything, the reprobates, is more like “well I gave you all you need, (the bare minimum) but who cares Its no you were going to fail anyways”

Like a child you just learn to accept that God may love you less than someone else. You cant do anything its His will.

This strikes me as sarcastic somehow. Am I close?

 

[Polaris]

This strikes me as sarcastic somehow. Am I close?

Nope, I am serious.
Every parent always has a favorite. Honest parents tell you which one out the four is the preferred first to go. Also I apologize for the abysmal grammar, spelling and punctuation. I was tired when I wrote that, and my English skills leave me the minute I yawn.

God, is not fair. He has the right He created everything. Accept this and go forth.

 

[BlaineTog]

Nope, I am serious.
Every parent always has a favorite. Honest parents tell you which one out the four is the preferred first to go.

…

I… have nothing to say to that. That is so profoundly wrong I can hardly believe what I read. I mean, wow. No one I know is even a tenth that cynical.

God, is not fair. He has the right He created everything. Accept this and go forth.

Whether he has the right or not is beside the point. God is fair. More to the point, God is “Fairness.” Justice is part of his nature; he cannot act otherwise, as his actions define what is just.

 

[Polaris]

…

I… have nothing to say to that. That is so profoundly wrong I can hardly believe what I read. I mean, wow. No one I know is even a tenth that cynical.

Whether he has the right or not is beside the point. God is fair. More to the point, God is “Fairness.” Justice is part of his nature; he cannot act otherwise, as his actions define what is just.

Ahh Im going to turn thirty cynical goes with the territory

As my own parents say they are liars. I prefer my parents they tell the truth and do not hide the truth with rainbows and butterflies with a premise of equal love. A parent will always do more for one child than another and love is an act not an emotion.

Its just the way it is and is an echo of Gods way. on

I will say it again God is not Fair, and Justice has nothing to do with fair.

You can look at this from the failed level of optimism.
Is it fair that Jesus died for your sins?

Is it fair that an infinite offense from God which every sin is, that god ignores them.

No its not. There is no fairness in God

If you feel like a pestimist, the way of truth.

Is it fair that an unbaptised child goes to hell for this sin of the mother?

No yet that is the will of God. You have to accept it.

 

[BlaineTog]

As my own parents say they are liars. I prefer my parents they tell the truth and do not hide the truth with rainbows and butterflies with a premise of equal love. A parent will always do more for one child than another and love is an act not an emotion.

Doing more for one child than for another just means that the first child needed more to be done. You need to manually feed, clothe, wash, etc a baby. You don’t need to really do much of anything for a mentally and physically healthy 25 year old living on his own. This doesn’t mean you loved him more as a baby, just that he needed more to be done for him.

I will say it again God is not Fair, and Justice has nothing to do with fair.

Justice means you get at least what is fair. Mercy means you get more than what is fair. They overlap.

You can look at this from the failed level of optimism.
Is it fair that Jesus died for your sins?

No. It is more than fair. It is merciful. We got more than we deserve, not less. Jesus got less than he deserved, but he freely chose his fate.

Is it fair that an infinite offense from God which every sin is, that god ignores them.

He doesn’t ignore them. He sent Jesus to account for them.

*Is it fair that an unbaptised child goes to hell for this sin of the mother?

No yet that is the will of God. You have to accept it.*

That is absolutely not the will of God. God does not will anyone to go to Hell. Additionally, we don’t know that unbaptized children go to Hell.

 

[seekerz]

The great danger in believing that God has favorites is that it can lead to the belief that some people are ‘more equal’ or of more value than others.

This is a very prevalent attitude, even if those who bear it may not do so consciously. The mainstream media illustrates this everyday: some reporters/announcers are quite casual in the way they report death and it often strains the imagination as to how the life-trivia of certain personalities could dominate the headlines when there are scores of human interest stories (the tragic and the uplifting) left untold everyday.

Not only do I not believe that God has favorites, I also believe He is greatly offended when man makes light of the value of his fellow man.

 

[I_like_Mike]

God’slove is infinite, but our capacity for receiving that love is probably finite. I suspect that we vary greatly in our capacity to accept that love. Some of that limit may be inate in us, but much depends on how we developed our capability to transmit love in this life.

I like they way Joe Kelley describes the situation. We are human and so very finite and very quickly judge God’s capacity by our own very limited measure. Some people are more important to other people than others … true the evidence is overwhelming. But we are so limited, so very limited and yet so very able to grow in faith and belief if we could only allow ourselves to do so.

Jesus describes so beautifully what we could do if our faith was just the size of a mustard seed. All of our lives we live and grow or should do in faith if it is what we choose to do. There are those who have lives forged in the fires of great battle who grow and are truly inspirational. There are those who have had comfortable lives like I have who have not ever needed to reach out and yet we are still required to try.

When I was young nine or ten there was an incident that people do not believe that convinced me that time and space exists in curves and folds. My world closed in and there were differences I saw the next day, buildings different and the teaching changed. Something happened in an earlier time at the same moment I was being visited and that bubble of energy or world collapsed. For years I didn’t think of it as there are things you just do not upset your parents with and then just over a year ago I got interested in science to try and work out how it was possible. Well it is not … not if you go by current scientific thinking. So there is more, so much more to life, this life, this world and the mathematics of reducing everything to simplicity totally underestimates the things that people will be capable of doing and of the universe God gave us.

If science had a religion it is time and the one thing a person is not allowed to question is time. In the Bible God’s time is not man’s time and so it is the only logical book I know of that describes my experience. If snowflakes were left to the logical reduced thinking of science they would be no more interesting than buckets of plain tiddly winks. Snowflakes are some of the most intricate and beautiful structures in all of our experience, each one unique and exquisitely beautiful. So how does science handle the ‘religious’ belief in the absoluteness of time … science denys God.

I have been on the science forums for a year and a half and they are not winning the battle to understand reality. Reality is now being severely mathematically corrected because scientists believe God must have got it wrong. Because of one small incident I am inclined to absolutely favour God and I have been totally unable to convince anybody else. It is because we learn to believe so much in ourselves that we are by nature egocentric … faith in self before anything else, it is not the case.

It is easier for people to believe the whole universe is flying apart out of control than to believe we are in a small pocket of time and we are only measuring an average based on the mistaken belief of our own absolute time and stability. There are things so strange that we can’t accept and so we call it wrong because that is what we do.

Michael.

 

[AgnosTheist]

How? God told men to love their wives and children to obey their parents, and yet the woman and the man are still equal, and though the parent has authority over the child, they are still of equal worth. I really don’t see how your objection is anything but a total non sequitur.

every parent was a child once. theres your equality.

But mary, she’s at the top of the food chain. every catholic is advised to pray to her, but mary is not advised to pray to any human. theres your INequality.

Ok. So?

Protestants has no need of a human mediator in order to better relate to God. Jesus is all they need.