Some practice for would-be apologists . . .

[flameburns623]

Hi folks!

I will open this with the head’s-up that I am NOT a Roman Catholic, so this is not a burning issue for me. I would like to see how y’all wuld resond to something like the situations I’m about to describe if–and this is the big if–if your intent and desire was to really teach and explain, not to come up with a snapy comeback. I’m using my wife and brother as examples: the eisodes I’m describing really happened. I want to stress that both of these people are really, really nice people who would NOT have said the kinds of things I’m about to describe if they thought there wre someone present whose feeling might be hurt. They made these comments to me because everyone present was Protestant and no one would be bothered. When these things happened, I actually tried to explain things but don’t think I came off too successfully, largely because I’m not Catholic. So just put yourself in the picture as a Catholic friend of the family or even as a ‘shirt-tail cousin’ catching these comments inadvertently and wanting very much to help folks understand w/o preaching and without saying something that would turn them off.

First episode. Years ago I attended a Catholic Mass on Palm Sunday. I came home with a palm frond and explained that during the service, we had formed a procession, received palm leaves, and walked around outside the church carrying these. My brother didn’t say anything but later, when something was said about his own denomination, he responded by saying, “Well, at least we don’t walk around outside our church carrying palms!!!”

Second episode, and much more recent: My wife was in my car a few days ago. I own a tape that has an Irish woman and an Irish guy doing the Rosary. My wife was raised in a very small Baptist church, and attends non-denominational churches now. To my knowledge, my wife has not only never heard a Rosary prayed before, she had never heard of anything called a Rosary. At best, she probably thought it was just the necklace with all the beads. So now she’s listening to this tape and is totally puzzled by it. “Why are they saying the same silly things over-and-over again?” And later, after listening to the guy introduce one of the Mysteries with a meditation, “What does what he was talking about have to do with what they keep repeating over-and-over?” She could NOT believe me when I told her that one is supposed to recite the prayers while focusing on the Mysteries. “You’re supposed to say one thing and think about something totally different? No one can do that!!!” ) (For the record, I made a little joke about chewing gum and walking at the same time; and then we changed the cassette tape).

So have at it Catholics: how would you explain things like this? Use my examples or choose one of your own, but remember this is a ‘teaching MOMENT’–such episodes are rarely an opportunity for a three-hour discourse.

 

[puzzleannie]

we might come back with not so charitable snappy remarks if someone tried to explain altar calls, or OSAS, or dismissal of infant baptism, or the forgiveness prayer, or long extended extemporaneous prayer that gets bogged down on personal detals, shouting Amen and Alleluia during services, gospel music, or other practices that some denominations take for granted, but are unfamiliar to Catholics. the best solution is an open mind, a genuine desire to listen to other people, and agreement where there is agreement, and attachment to Christian charity.

 

[mercygate]

Hi folks!

I will open this with the head’s-up that I am NOT a Roman Catholic, so this is not a burning issue for me. I would like to see how y’all wuld resond to something like the situations I’m about to describe if–and this is the big if–if your intent and desire was to really teach and explain, not to come up with a snapy comeback. I’m using my wife and brother as examples: the eisodes I’m describing really happened. I want to stress that both of these people are really, really nice people who would NOT have said the kinds of things I’m about to describe if they thought there wre someone present whose feeling might be hurt. They made these comments to me because everyone present was Protestant and no one would be bothered. When these things happened, I actually tried to explain things but don’t think I came off too successfully, largely because I’m not Catholic. So just put yourself in the picture as a Catholic friend of the family or even as a ‘shirt-tail cousin’ catching these comments inadvertently and wanting very much to help folks understand w/o preaching and without saying something that would turn them off.

First episode. Years ago I attended a Catholic Mass on Palm Sunday. I came home with a palm frond and explained that during the service, we had formed a procession, received palm leaves, and walked around outside the church carrying these. My brother didn’t say anything but later, when something was said about his own denomination, he responded by saying, “Well, at least we don’t walk around outside our church carrying palms!!!”

Second episode, and much more recent: My wife was in my car a few days ago. I own a tape that has an Irish woman and an Irish guy doing the Rosary. My wife was raised in a very small Baptist church, and attends non-denominational churches now. To my knowledge, my wife has not only never heard a Rosary prayed before, she had never heard of anything called a Rosary. At best, she probably thought it was just the necklace with all the beads. So now she’s listening to this tape and is totally puzzled by it. “Why are they saying the same silly things over-and-over again?” And later, after listening to the guy introduce one of the Mysteries with a meditation, “What does what he was talking about have to do with what they keep repeating over-and-over?” She could NOT believe me when I told her that one is supposed to recite the prayers while focusing on the Mysteries. “You’re supposed to say one thing and think about something totally different? No one can do that!!!” ) (For the record, I made a little joke about chewing gum and walking at the same time; and then we changed the cassette tape).

So have at it Catholics: how would you explain things like this? Use my examples or choose one of your own, but remember this is a ‘teaching MOMENT’–such episodes are rarely an opportunity for a three-hour discourse.

For the first scenario, I am not sure how I would respond. I might not bother. If such a comment were addressed to me, I might say something like: “I wish we did that in our parish. It sounds like a beautiful way to introduce Holy Week!”

Second scenario: I might say, "What silly things are they repeating? I hear words of Scripture. But I don’t hear anything “silly.”

As for chewing gum and walking at the same time – I think that’s a TERRIFIC comparison: light hearted and good natured. It also kind of sums up the situation. We do meditate on the mystery, but clearly, since we are also reciting the prayers, it is not exactly discursive meditation. It is more of a dwelling on the mystery, using the prayer as a way of keeping us on topic.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

I think I would ask why precession with palms is “silly” and continue the discussion from there. Since those who praised Jesus met Him with palms in John’s Gospel, I don’t see how doing so now, so as to recollect the teachings of Scripture, can be considered “silly.”

Consider the following…

John 12:13 “So they took branches of palm trees and went out to meet him, crying, "Hosanna! Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord, even the King of Israel!”

Doesn’t sound silly to me…sounds beautiful. If only we were all so inclined.

This is how the heavenly liturgy is celebrated. Observe…

“After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no man could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands” (Rev 7:9)

The real question is, why don’t they incorporate palm branches in the liturgy, as do the holy ones of Sacred Scripture?

 

[wisteria]

Hello there,

I’ll try to give you my best effort on these, complete with suggested facial expressions.

“Well, at least we don’t walk around outside our church carrying palms!!!”

It’s quite a shame that we don’t. God specifically requested that we worship with our whole mind, heart, body, spirit, soul - and that includes all our senses.

“Why are they saying the same silly things over-and-over again?”

You think Bible quotations are silly?

“You’re supposed to say one thing and think about something totally different? No one can do that!!!”

Well, it takes a little practice, but yes, you’re supposed to distract the verbal part of your brain with repetitions of the angel’s greeting while picturing the events of Jesus’ life with the non-verbal part of your brain. It’s very soothing and you can get some wonderful insights.

(just one way to explain it)

The rosary was not always a “purely Catholic” sacramental - if I remember correctly, it was only with the rise of Puritanism that the rosary was shunned by Protestants. The original Protestants loved the Blessed Mother **and **her rosary - and they’re still loved among some of the more “high church” Protestants - some Anglicans and Lutherans, for example.

Have a great day!

 

[John_Henry]

First episode. Years ago I attended a Catholic Mass on Palm Sunday. I came home with a palm frond and explained that during the service, we had formed a procession, received palm leaves, and walked around outside the church carrying these. My brother didn’t say anything but later, when something was said about his own denomination, he responded by saying, “Well, at least we don’t walk around outside our church carrying palms!!!”

I obviously don’t know what church he belongs to. But the quite obvious response would be that many many many Protestant churches distribute palms for Palm Sunday, in remembrance of the events of that very day. Much as many many many Protestants put out nativity scenes to remember those events, or crosses to remember the crucifixion etc. Unless he is specifically objecting to walking outside of a church. But many many many Protestants walk outside churches too.

“Why are they saying the same silly things over-and-over again?”

It’s a universally ancient technique for helping people meditate. And I assure you that people can say one thing while thinking about something else. Heck, when I pray the rosary, to my shame, I say the words, think about the mystery, and think about how I really want a new car or a new computer etc. Sad.

 

[Rawb]

First episode. Years ago I attended a Catholic Mass on Palm Sunday. I came home with a palm frond and explained that during the service, we had formed a procession, received palm leaves, and walked around outside the church carrying these. My brother didn’t say anything but later, when something was said about his own denomination, he responded by saying, “Well, at least we don’t walk around outside our church carrying palms!!!”

This would just crack me up. That’s his comeback? I probably wouldn’t say anything. Maybe would say that Catholics might think that some of the things Protestants do could be seen as funny to them (and I was Protestant up until this summer). Or might mention where in the Bible people greeted Jesus with palm brances. Was there a monstrance involved because if so it was probably directly derived from that.

Second episode, and much more recent: My wife was in my car a few days ago. I own a tape that has an Irish woman and an Irish guy doing the Rosary. My wife was raised in a very small Baptist church, and attends non-denominational churches now. To my knowledge, my wife has not only never heard a Rosary prayed before, she had never heard of anything called a Rosary. At best, she probably thought it was just the necklace with all the beads. So now she’s listening to this tape and is totally puzzled by it. “Why are they saying the same silly things over-and-over again?” And later, after listening to the guy introduce one of the Mysteries with a meditation, “What does what he was talking about have to do with what they keep repeating over-and-over?” She could NOT believe me when I told her that one is supposed to recite the prayers while focusing on the Mysteries. “You’re supposed to say one thing and think about something totally different? No one can do that!!!” ) (For the record, I made a little joke about chewing gum and walking at the same time; and then we changed the cassette tape).

I actually have explained this one before. There’s one Hail Mary for each of the Psalms. In the old days, medievel and beyond, the common man wanted to mimic the priests, who said all the psalms every day (Or most of them, can’t quite remember) but they generally couldn’t read and memorizing the psalms was too much work and took too much time. So they substituted a Hail Mary for each one.

 

[Tonks40]

First episode. Years ago I attended a Catholic Mass on Palm Sunday. I came home with a palm frond and explained that during the service, we had formed a procession, received palm leaves, and walked around outside the church carrying these. My brother didn’t say anything but later, when something was said about his own denomination, he responded by saying, “Well, at least we don’t walk around outside our church carrying palms!!!”

Response: “Well, actually, it’s really nice that we carry these palms, just like the people of Jeruselum did when our Lord Jesus Christ entered the city. Could you imagine the excitement the people felt when they knew that their Savior was coming to free them from Roman rule? But then, of course, we know that it wasn’t from Rome that Christ came to free us from, it was from sin. This little palm is a great reminder to help me remember the sacrifice He was going to give at the end of the week.”

Second episode, and much more recent: My wife was in my car a few days ago. I own a tape that has an Irish woman and an Irish guy doing the Rosary. My wife was raised in a very small Baptist church, and attends non-denominational churches now. To my knowledge, my wife has not only never heard a Rosary prayed before, she had never heard of anything called a Rosary. At best, she probably thought it was just the necklace with all the beads. So now she’s listening to this tape and is totally puzzled by it. “Why are they saying the same silly things over-and-over again?” And later, after listening to the guy introduce one of the Mysteries with a meditation, “What does what he was talking about have to do with what they keep repeating over-and-over?” She could NOT believe me when I told her that one is supposed to recite the prayers while focusing on the Mysteries. “You’re supposed to say one thing and think about something totally different? No one can do that!!!” ) (For the record, I made a little joke about chewing gum and walking at the same time; and then we changed the cassette tape).

Response: Exactly what Rawb said!

 

[flameburns623]

we might come back with not so charitable snappy remarks if someone tried to explain altar calls, or OSAS, or dismissal of infant baptism, or the forgiveness prayer, or long extended extemporaneous prayer that gets bogged down on personal detals, shouting Amen and Alleluia during services, gospel music, or other practices that some denominations take for granted, but are unfamiliar to Catholics. the best solution is an open mind, a genuine desire to listen to other people, and agreement where there is agreement, and attachment to Christian charity.

Annie:

I stress that there was no one present to be offended when my relatives made these comments. I’m not Roman Catholic, for example, so I wasn’t offended: it just struck me that my brother and my wife were missing something of the point by making light of things they didn’t understand. But neither my brother nor my wife are the kind of people would would willfully make such comments if they thought someone would be hurt by them.

On the other hand, people DO make culturally-insensitive remarks, often out of sheer ignorance. Such occurences, IMHO consititute ‘teaching moments’, an opportunity to explain ‘why’, briefly and in a way interesting enough to possibly make the other person interested in finding out more. I thought this thread might provoke a few responses along such lines.

 

[crmcfl]

It’s tough to provide a teaching moment for someone who is both ignorant of the subject and derisive toward it. I’m bothered that no one was offended at such an anti-Christian attitude, let alone anti-Catholic. I would start by questioning whether Jesus would be pleased at poking fun of other Christians or anyone else. Until that’s addressed, there’s no point in trying to teach.

 

[flameburns623]

It’s tough to provide a teaching moment for someone who is both ignorant of the subject and derisive toward it. I’m bothered that no one was offended at such an anti-Christian attitude, let alone anti-Catholic. I would start by questioning whether Jesus would be pleased at poking fun of other Christians or anyone else. Until that’s addressed, there’s no point in trying to teach.

Look, people say thoughtless things about all sorts of issues, especially when they think there is no one within earshot likely to be bothered by what is said. Not infrequently, they say such things even when someone who MIGHT be bothered happens to overhear. If you were a tad older, you might remember when ethnic humor was freely bandied about. No one today would make a “Jewish mother-in-law” or a “Polish” joke, but once upon a time, even people of Jewish or Polish extraction freely told such jokes. I know of a certitude that more than a few Roman Catholics, standing in the foyer after Mass, can and do make throwaway comments about various Protestant denominations which their Protestant friends or relatives would not appreciate. “Ignorant of the subject” is actually the point; your sense that my family members were “derisive of it” is mistaken.

Again: my original post asked you to think of the people who might make such a comment as people you liked and respected, and who like and respect you, and who would not willfully or knowingly made such a comment if they thought it would bother you. In such a situation, you would certainly be presented with a ‘teaching moment’ at least after making known that you were bothered.

 

[Della]

I just wanted to share something that helped me understand praying the Hail Marys while meditating on the mysteries. It’s a verse from the Psalms (which were originally sung not merely spoken, as you probably know).

Ps.33
[1] Rejoice in the LORD, O you righteous!
Praise befits the upright.
[2] Praise the LORD with the lyre,
make melody to him with the harp of ten strings!
[3] Sing to him a new song,
play skilfully on the strings, with loud shouts.

The Rosary has sets of ten beads, as the harp David played have ten strings. Anyone who plays an instrument while singing at the same time knows that it is possible to do two things at one time. Prayer goes together with meditation like a musician playing and singing songs of praise–they work together, not opposed one another.

 

[CRW]

Hi folks!

I will open this with the head’s-up that I am NOT a Roman Catholic, so this is not a burning issue for me. I would like to see how y’all wuld resond to something like the situations I’m about to describe if–and this is the big if–if your intent and desire was to really teach and explain, not to come up with a snapy comeback. I’m using my wife and brother as examples: the eisodes I’m describing really happened. I want to stress that both of these people are really, really nice people who would NOT have said the kinds of things I’m about to describe if they thought there wre someone present whose feeling might be hurt. They made these comments to me because everyone present was Protestant and no one would be bothered. When these things happened, I actually tried to explain things but don’t think I came off too successfully, largely because I’m not Catholic. So just put yourself in the picture as a Catholic friend of the family or even as a ‘shirt-tail cousin’ catching these comments inadvertently and wanting very much to help folks understand w/o preaching and without saying something that would turn them off.

First episode. Years ago I attended a Catholic Mass on Palm Sunday. I came home with a palm frond and explained that during the service, we had formed a procession, received palm leaves, and walked around outside the church carrying these. My brother didn’t say anything but later, when something was said about his own denomination, he responded by saying, “Well, at least we don’t walk around outside our church carrying palms!!!”

Second episode, and much more recent: My wife was in my car a few days ago. I own a tape that has an Irish woman and an Irish guy doing the Rosary. My wife was raised in a very small Baptist church, and attends non-denominational churches now. To my knowledge, my wife has not only never heard a Rosary prayed before, she had never heard of anything called a Rosary. At best, she probably thought it was just the necklace with all the beads. So now she’s listening to this tape and is totally puzzled by it. “Why are they saying the same silly things over-and-over again?” And later, after listening to the guy introduce one of the Mysteries with a meditation, “What does what he was talking about have to do with what they keep repeating over-and-over?” She could NOT believe me when I told her that one is supposed to recite the prayers while focusing on the Mysteries. “You’re supposed to say one thing and think about something totally different? No one can do that!!!” ) (For the record, I made a little joke about chewing gum and walking at the same time; and then we changed the cassette tape).

So have at it Catholics: how would you explain things like this? Use my examples or choose one of your own, but remember this is a ‘teaching MOMENT’–such episodes are rarely an opportunity for a three-hour discourse.

First I would suggest that you and your wife (make copy if necessary) would read the Apostolic Letter, Rosarium Virginis Mariae of the Supreme Pontiff John Paul II to the Bishops, clergy and faithful on the Most Holy Rosary, dated October 16, 2002 at: adoremus.org/RosariumVirginisMariae.html

Also Luke Chapter 1: 39-56. Partial quote: Blessed are you among woman, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. This is part of the Hail Mary that is said. Reading the complete reference will provide greater detail.

Concerning repetition in the prayers" Revelation 4: 8: "And the four living creatures, each of them with six wings, are full of eyes all round and within, and day and night they never cease to sing, “Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God Almighty.” The 10 beads for each decade of the Rosary allows us to venerate the Blessed Virgin Mother. as well as, have time to comprehend and meditate on the mystery of the decade (5 in total).

Your question concerning Palm Sunday of the Lord’s Passion: On this day the Church celebrates Christ’s entrance into Jerusalem to accomplish his Paschal mystery. Passion Sunday has three forms. Normally the First Form, The Procession, is celebrated with the procession or the solemn entrance before the principal; Mass. The Second Form, The solemn Entrance is used if the procession cannot be held outside the church –weather conditions, number of people, etc. The Third Form, The Simple Entrance, is used at all other Masses if the solemn entrance is not held.

The Form selected is based on the celebrant, the priest. Regardless of the Form, Passion Sunday remains one of the truely beautiful and important celebrations of Lent. God Bless

 

[runandsew]

Wow, as for that first comment, that person really doesn’t understand what we are doing. They need to know that we are not just going through some meaningless motion. I think it would help that person more clearly understand all of this if they knew the about the whole Lenten process, how all of our readings since Ash Wednesday have been preparing us and pointing us to the passion, death and resurrection of our Lord. Just as Jesus fasted and prayed in the wilderness for 40 days, we also, for the 40 days of Lent, are preparing ourselves for Easter by fasting, prayer and giving alms. We know “the rest of the story”, so when we carry our palms, we are in a way, spiritually going back in time spend that last week with Jesus, and Holy Week begins with Passion (Palm) Sunday with His triumphal entry into Jerusalem. Ask that person if they had the opportunity, would they want to be one of those who waved the branches before the Lord, as he rode into Jerusalem, and shouted Hosanna in the highest? Would they have wanted to be at his side during the last supper, helped him carry his cross, comforted him during his suffering. How quickly the shouts of "Hosanna, Hosanna "will change to shouts of "Crucify him, Crucify him by Holy Thursday. I would also explain the triduum, (Holy Thursday, Good Friday, and Holy Saturday).
If one knows what is going on during Lent and Holy Week, it can make Easter so much more meaningful and powerful.
If that person’s church does not have a Lenten season, then I would recommend a sort of personal Lenten retreat for him, reading the Sunday readings, and learning more about the meaning of the season. I see on you profile that you are Anglican, so I would guess that your church celebrates this Lent is somewhat a similar way that we do, if not you can find a lot good info on web sites.
If your church celebrates Lent then invite him to your church, if not, then the both of you might want to experience Holy Week at a Catholic church, but before that, it is important to read up on what is going on during the Masses, every single little thing going on during the Triduum had meaning, it is so rich.