some questions about Mary

[Andru]

Mary never had original sin. But did she have the darkening of the intellect and the weakening of the will which flow from original sin?

When did Mary have understanding of the Trinity? Surely the latest possible answer would be at the Incarnation.

Is Mary part of the body of Christ? She is the mother of the body of Christ, correct? Is she so elevated that she is not even part of the body?

Mary could not sin. Was Mary’s inability to sin simply God’s prohibition or did it flow according to necessity from something within her?

The perfection of Christians is union with Jesus. Is this also Mary’s perfection? Was she not completely one with Christ from the moment of the Incarnation? I read somewhere that Mary’s spirituality is about “divine maternity,” which is higher than the “union” route.

I read that Mary’s “initial grace” was probably greater than the “final grace” of all other saints combined!

According to Thomas Aquinas, Moses and Paul enjoyed on earth, for a bit of time, the beatific vision (this is in the Summa Theologica, unless I misread it). What about Mary?

When Jesus rose from the dead, or around that time, people such as Socrates, David, Isaiah, good folks etc. were admitted to the beatific vision. What was going on with Mary? At that point in time, before Mary’s death, was Mary less holy, less knowledgeable, less divinized than a soul in heaven?

Was Mary able, in a mystical way, to teach Jesus holiness as his spiritual counselor?

Does Mary have perfect or imperfect knowledge of the Trinity?

Is the beauty of Mary’s soul in heaven finite or infinite?

We know, I think, that Jesus’ humanity was the most beautiful and perfect of all men. Was Mary the most beautiful and perfect of all women, physically?

Does Mary reign over Jesus in heaven?

 

[bpbasilphx]

**I’m not going to attempt to answer all your questions, just a few as I understand them and their possible answers. Some of them I’m not going to even try to touch.
**

When did Mary have understanding of the Trinity? Surely the latest possible answer would be at the Incarnation.

Here’s my opinion: Were you to have stopped Miriam bas Joachim on the streets of Nazareth and quizzed her with trick questions about the Incarnation, Hypostatic Union, and Trinitarian theology, she might well have said, “Huh?” But so would have the disciples at one point.

Is Mary part of the body of Christ? She is the mother of the body of Christ, correct? Is she so elevated that she is not even part of the body?

**As regards the Incarnation, the flesh of Christ came from the Theotokos.

If by “part of the body,” if you are asking if she is part of the Church or above it, I feel that she is certainly part of the Church.**

Mary could not sin. Was Mary’s inability to sin simply God’s prohibition or did it flow according to necessity from something within her?

The Theotokos was a total stranger to sin and DID not sin and is rightly called immaculate." For me, that suffices.

According to Thomas Aquinas, Moses and Paul enjoyed on earth, for a bit of time, the beatific vision (this is in the Summa Theologica, unless I misread it). What about Mary?

**Since the Beatific Vision is the full vision of the Holy Trinity, I don’t hold with St. Thomas on this point. I won’t argue that Moses and St. Paul were glanted a glimpse of the glory of the Only-Begotten of the Father, one in His pre-incarnation, the other in His Resurrected glory…

By the Virgin’s Dormition and Assumption, the Resurrection of the Body and Life of the World to Come, for which we all look, is anticipated in her case and is an accomplised fact. She constantly beholds the face of her Divine Son in the Mystery of the Holy Trinity now, does she not?

What happened before this should not concern us.**

Was Mary able, in a mystical way, to teach Jesus holiness as his spiritual counselor?

Well, she and St. Joseph certainly taught baby Yeshua His first Scripture verses and prayers, did they not?

Does Mary have perfect or imperfect knowledge of the Trinity?

Her knowlege of the Holy Trinity is experiential, and therefore not only perfect, but growing and increasing.

Is the beauty of Mary’s soul in heaven finite or infinite?

**Only God is infinite in any of His attributes.

As we sing, she is “higher in honor than the Cherubim and more glorious beyond compare than the Seraphim.”

Isn’t this enough?

Her beauty is more than we will ever be able to comprehend, so this is really a non-question.**

We know, I think, that Jesus’ humanity was the most beautiful and perfect of all men. Was Mary the most beautiful and perfect of all women, physically?

See my answer to the above question.

Does Mary reign over Jesus in heaven?

**At His Ascension, Jesus said, “All power is given unto Me in heaven and on earth.”

So no, she does not reign over Jesus.

Mary currently reigns WITH Jesus, in exactly the same way as the overcomers in the Book of Revelation are promised: to be kings and priests with Jesus in the World to Come.**

 

[thistle]

Mary never had original sin. But did she have the darkening of the intellect and the weakening of the will which flow from original sin?

When did Mary have understanding of the Trinity? Surely the latest possible answer would be at the Incarnation.

Is Mary part of the body of Christ? She is the mother of the body of Christ, correct? Is she so elevated that she is not even part of the body?

Mary could not sin. Was Mary’s inability to sin simply God’s prohibition or did it flow according to necessity from something within her?

The perfection of Christians is union with Jesus. Is this also Mary’s perfection? Was she not completely one with Christ from the moment of the Incarnation? I read somewhere that Mary’s spirituality is about “divine maternity,” which is higher than the “union” route.

I read that Mary’s “initial grace” was probably greater than the “final grace” of all other saints combined!

According to Thomas Aquinas, Moses and Paul enjoyed on earth, for a bit of time, the beatific vision (this is in the Summa Theologica, unless I misread it). What about Mary?

When Jesus rose from the dead, or around that time, people such as Socrates, David, Isaiah, good folks etc. were admitted to the beatific vision. What was going on with Mary? At that point in time, before Mary’s death, was Mary less holy, less knowledgeable, less divinized than a soul in heaven?

Was Mary able, in a mystical way, to teach Jesus holiness as his spiritual counselor?

Does Mary have perfect or imperfect knowledge of the Trinity?

Is the beauty of Mary’s soul in heaven finite or infinite?

We know, I think, that Jesus’ humanity was the most beautiful and perfect of all men. Was Mary the most beautiful and perfect of all women, physically?

Does Mary reign over Jesus in heaven?

The other poster has done a good job answering most of your questions.

A word of advice. When you open a thread stick to ONE question otherwise any discussion will be a mess.

 

[Andru]

The question I would most like answered is: did Mary have the darkening of the intellect and the weakening of the will consequent on original sin.

 

[diggerdomer]

The question I would most like answered is: did Mary have the darkening of the intellect and the weakening of the will consequent on original sin.

Where does this phrase/understanding come from? What do you mean/understand by it?

darkening of the intellect and the weakening of the will consequent on original sin

Thanks.

 

[thistle]

The question I would most like answered is: did Mary have the darkening of the intellect and the weakening of the will consequent on original sin.

I, too, don’t understand this question.

 

[Holly3278]

You know, I honestly don’t know the answers to your questions but I am sure someone will come along and be very helpful to you.

 

[Andru]

This is from the Baltimore Catechism no. 4, or Explanation of the Baltimore Catechism, cerca 1891.

Q. What other effects followed from the sin of our first parents?
A. Our nature was corrupted by the sin of our first parents, which darkened our understanding, weakened our will, and left us a strong inclination to evil.

Our “nature was corrupted” is what I have said of the body rebelling against the soul. Our “understanding darkened:” Adam knew much more without study than the most intelligent men could learn now with constant application. Before his fall he saw things clearly and understood them well, but after his sin everything had to be learned by the slow process of study. Then the “will was weakened:” Before he fell he could easily resist temptation, for his will was strong. You know we sin by the will, because unless we wish to do the evil we commit no sin; and if absolutely forced by others to do wrong, we are free from the guilt as long as our will despises and protests against the action. If forced, for example, to break my neighbor’s window, I have not to answer in my conscience for the unjust act, because my will did not consent. So, on every occasion on which we sin, it is the will that yields to the temptation. After Adam’s sin his will became weak and less able to resist temptation; and as we are sharers in his misfortune, we find great difficulty at times in overcoming sinful inclinations. But no matter how violent the temptation or how prolonged and fierce the struggle against it, we can always be victorious if determined not to yield; for God gives us sufficient grace to resist every temptation; and if anyone should excuse his fall by saying he could not help sinning, he would be guilty of falsehood.

“A strong inclination” to do wrong-that is, unless always on our guard against it. Our Lord once cautioned His Apostles (Matt. 26:41) to watch and pray lest they fall into temptation; teaching us also by the same warning that, besides praying against our spiritual enemies, we must watch their maneuvers and be ever ready to repel their attacks.

 

[diggerdomer]

This is from the Baltimore Catechism no. 4, or Explanation of the Baltimore Catechism, cerca 1891.

Q. What other effects followed from the sin of our first parents?
A. Our nature was corrupted by the sin of our first parents, which darkened our understanding, weakened our will, and left us a strong inclination to evil.

Our “nature was corrupted” is what I have said of the body rebelling against the soul. Our “understanding darkened:” Adam knew much more without study than the most intelligent men could learn now with constant application. Before his fall he saw things clearly and understood them well, but after his sin everything had to be learned by the slow process of study. Then the “will was weakened:” Before he fell he could easily resist temptation, for his will was strong. You know we sin by the will, because unless we wish to do the evil we commit no sin; and if absolutely forced by others to do wrong, we are free from the guilt as long as our will despises and protests against the action. If forced, for example, to break my neighbor’s window, I have not to answer in my conscience for the unjust act, because my will did not consent. So, on every occasion on which we sin, it is the will that yields to the temptation. After Adam’s sin his will became weak and less able to resist temptation; and as we are sharers in his misfortune, we find great difficulty at times in overcoming sinful inclinations. But no matter how violent the temptation or how prolonged and fierce the struggle against it, we can always be victorious if determined not to yield; for God gives us sufficient grace to resist every temptation; and if anyone should excuse his fall by saying he could not help sinning, he would be guilty of falsehood.

“A strong inclination” to do wrong-that is, unless always on our guard against it. Our Lord once cautioned His Apostles (Matt. 26:41) to watch and pray lest they fall into temptation; teaching us also by the same warning that, besides praying against our spiritual enemies, we must watch their maneuvers and be ever ready to repel their attacks.

And what does it say about Mary?

 

[bpbasilphx]

The question I would most like answered is: did Mary have the darkening of the intellect and the weakening of the will consequent on original sin.

**You will notice that this is a question I deliberately avoided answering.

Proper Mariology is an extension, or rather, sub-set, of Christology and flows from it.

If a Mariological question helps elucidate the doctrine of Christ, then it is worthwhile to answer it.

If we’re looking at the Theotokos for her own sake–or indeed anything else, even the Bible–this is EXACTLY the idolatry that gets in the way of seeing Christ!**

 

[Fair_Lady]

Let’s go to scripture to see what it has to say about several points being sought after in this thread. First, it is made clear that ALL have sinned with the exception of Jesus Christ. Had Mary not sinned, the Bible would certainly tell us because it would have been a truly important exception, as was the case of Jesus. Here are some verses that we can look to to clarify this very important issue:

With reference to Jesus being sinless:
“For he hath made him (Jesus) to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.” 2 Corinthians 5:21

For all of mankind, it is so clear that everyone has sinned:
“For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;” Romans 3:23

“As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:” Romans 3:10

“Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:” Romans 5:12

Had Mary not sinned, she would not have needed a Saviour, yet she clearly states that God is her Saviour:
“And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.” Luke 1:46-47

It is also very interesting the way Jesus deflected an attempt by a woman to exalt Mary with his words in Luke 11:
“… a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it." Luke 11:27-28
Just to encourage everyone here – scripture is where we find all truth. It’s a wonderful thing that God has provided to us His written word so that we can learn from it and allow it to answer the questions we have.

 

[DL82]

Is Mary part of the body of Christ? She is the mother of the body of Christ, correct? Is she so elevated that she is not even part of the body?

The perfection of Christians is union with Jesus. Is this also Mary’s perfection? Was she not completely one with Christ from the moment of the Incarnation? I read somewhere that Mary’s spirituality is about “divine maternity,” which is higher than the “union” route.

…

Mary could not sin. Was Mary’s inability to sin simply God’s prohibition or did it flow according to necessity from something within her?

According to Thomas Aquinas, Moses and Paul enjoyed on earth, for a bit of time, the beatific vision (this is in the Summa Theologica, unless I misread it). What about Mary?

When Jesus rose from the dead, or around that time, people such as Socrates, David, Isaiah, good folks etc. were admitted to the beatific vision. What was going on with Mary? At that point in time, before Mary’s death, was Mary less holy, less knowledgeable, less divinized than a soul in heaven?

There are two things I’m going to add, one is from today’s gospel, for the Dedication of Our Lady - in the gospel, a follower praises Jesus’ mother for her biological maternity, but He says His mother is still more blessed because she hears and obeys the word of God. Mary’s humility and total reliance on being the Lord’s handmaid is her glory. Mary is definitely part of the body of Christ, Mary is not above her divine Son, but she is so perfectly in union with Him that her union is more than that of any other creature. This may go some way toward answering your first two questions.

The second thing is that Mary is in some ways the divine template for what God wants from the whole of creation. She is ‘before’ in the sense of being closer to the teleological cause of the universe - that is to say, she is closest to God’s perfect plan, she is perfectly in accordance with it, she IS God’s perfect plan for creation. God wants the whole of creation to be as perfect as Mary, therefore Mary is a kind of ‘prototype’ of every human being. That is why all those verses in the books of Ecclesiasticus/Sirach and Wisdom about the wisdom (described as feminine) that was with God before the beginning of time are used in the Church’s liturgy to refer to the Blessed Virgin Mary. Maybe that goes some way toward answering the second group of questions I’ve quoted.

Hope that helps. Our Lady, mediatrix of all graces, pray for us.

 

[bpbasilphx]

\It is also very interesting the way Jesus deflected an attempt by a woman to exalt Mary with his words in Luke 11:
“… a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it." Luke 11:27-28\

**If you read the words carefully, they are really exalting Christ.

And “hearing the word of God and keeping it” are EXACTLY what the Theotokos did, according to the very Bible you claim to be believing.**

 

[peary]

Mary never had original sin. But did she have the darkening of the intellect and the weakening of the will which flow from original sin?

You answered your own question! If Mary never had original sin, then how would she have had the darkening of the intellect and the weakening of the will which flow from original sin? HUH?

When did Mary have understanding of the Trinity? Surely the latest possible answer would be at the Incarnation.

You answered your own question.

Is Mary part of the body of Christ? She is the mother of the body of Christ, correct? Is she so elevated that she is not even part of the body?

Mary is a creature, just as we are. All who belong to Christ are part of His Body.

Mary could not sin. Was Mary’s inability to sin simply God’s prohibition or did it flow according to necessity from something within her?

**Your assumption is not accurate. The Church teaches that Mary *did not ***sin. She still had the choice to do so but didn’t. It’s free will all the way, baby!

The perfection of Christians is union with Jesus. Is this also Mary’s perfection? Was she not completely one with Christ from the moment of the Incarnation? I read somewhere that Mary’s spirituality is about “divine maternity,” which is higher than the “union” route.

As we are the Body of Christ on earth, in purgatory, and in Heaven, so also is Mary but with this difference: She is also Mother of the Church because we are the Church and the Church is the Body of Christ.

I read that Mary’s “initial grace” was probably greater than the “final grace” of all other saints combined!

Probably.

According to Thomas Aquinas, Moses and Paul enjoyed on earth, for a bit of time, the beatific vision (this is in the Summa Theologica, unless I misread it). What about Mary?

Every time She looked at her Son, she saw the beatific vision clothed in human form.

When Jesus rose from the dead, or around that time, people such as Socrates, David, Isaiah, good folks etc. were admitted to the beatific vision. What was going on with Mary? At that point in time, before Mary’s death, was Mary less holy, less knowledgeable, less divinized than a soul in heaven?

We do not know who were admitted to the Beatific Vision. You are very presumptuous. Mary entered the Beatific Vision in her Assumption - both body and soul together.

Was Mary able, in a mystical way, to teach Jesus holiness as his spiritual counselor?

I am sure, as His mother, she had a special influence on Him. In fact, it was through her intercession at the marriage at Cana did Christ perform His first miracle.

Does Mary have perfect or imperfect knowledge of the Trinity?

She is in Heaven, meaning that she has perfect knowledge of the Trinity. Someday we shall obtain the same.

Is the beauty of Mary’s soul in heaven finite or infinite?

God created us with an eternal soul. Being eternal, once we get to Heaven, the beauty of our souls will be infinite.

We know, I think, that Jesus’ humanity was the most beautiful and perfect of all men. Was Mary the most beautiful and perfect of all women, physically?

Physical beauty does not point to spiritual beauty. Both of us know some very attractive people who are morally bankrupt, who are ugly on the inside as a person.

Does Mary reign over Jesus in heaven?

It’s the other way around.Were you actually serious with this question?

 

[bpbasilphx]

\God created us with an eternal soul. Being eternal, once we get to Heaven, the beauty of our souls will be infinite.\

Actually, our souls are NOT eternal. They have a beginning.

 

[peary]

\God created us with an eternal soul. Being eternal, once we get to Heaven, the beauty of our souls will be infinite.\

Actually, our souls are NOT eternal. They have a beginning.

I would clarify that by saying that from the time of our conception, our souls, created by God, are henceforth eternal.

 

[bpbasilphx]

I would clarify that by saying that from the time of our conception, our souls, created by God, are henceforth eternal.

“Henceforth eternal” is like saying “neat garbage”. It’s an oxymoron.

The definition of eternity is “outside of time.”

It does NOT mean the same thing as “unending.”

Only GOD is eternal–that is, with no beginning and no end and outside of time.

 

[thistle]

“Henceforth eternal” is like saying “neat garbage”. It’s an oxymoron.

The definition of eternity is “outside of time.”

It does NOT mean the same thing as “unending.”

Only GOD is eternal–that is, with no beginning and no end and outside of time.

I agree.
Eternal by definition means having no beginning and no end. That only applies to God.
God creates our souls and so they have a beginning. Thereafter they are immortal.

 

[grandfather]

“Henceforth eternal” is like saying “neat garbage”. It’s an oxymoron.

The definition of eternity is “outside of time.”

It does NOT mean the same thing as “unending.”

Only GOD is eternal–that is, with no beginning and no end and outside of time.

I am not sure this is a good definition of enternity, or eternal. Angels exist outside of time, but they were created, had a beginning, are not eternal.

 

[bpbasilphx]

I am not sure this is a good definition of enternity, or eternal. Angels exist outside of time, but they were created, had a beginning, are not eternal.

As a matter of fact, angels ARE limited by both space and time. Anything that has a beginning is bound to time.

But you’re right in that ANYTHING that has a beginning, be it angels or our souls, are not eternal.

This is what makes John 3:16 so special. Though bound by time, we’re offered by Christ the chance to be drawn up into the life that God has by nature.