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bpbasilphx
Guest
It might be better to say that our souls are not immortal by nature, but only by God’s permission and will.
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thistle
Guest
I thought that’s what I said.It might be better to say that our souls are not immortal by nature, but only by God’s permission and will.
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grandfather
Guest
It seems both are true. Souls are created by God to be immortal. That is both their nature and it is by divine will.It might be better to say that our souls are not immortal by nature, but only by God’s permission and will.
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grandfather
Guest
When I tihnk of time and space I think of the physical universe, material reality. Things of matter, material things take up space, or exist in some space within the same dimension. If you and I are in a room, you take up space and I do. So does the furniture. We can not be in the same space, or walk though walls that take up space. I can move the furniture, but not be in the same space as the furniture. The walls, roof, furniture and me are bound by gravity and do not float off or around in space. Cars and galaxies can crash or collides into one another and there is some impact, because they can not take up the same space. Spirits are different. They go through walls, or water or air.As a matter of fact, angels ARE limited by both space and time. Anything that has a beginning is bound to time.
But you’re right in that ANYTHING that has a beginning, be it angels or our souls, are not eternal.
This is what makes John 3:16 so special. Though bound by time, we’re offered by Christ the chance to be drawn up into the life that God has by nature.
When Jesus cast the demon spirits out of the demoniac, they went into the herd of swine. The spirits were in the man and left and entered the swine herd. The spirits were in the pigs then, in the space where the pigs dwelt and drove them off the cliffs.
My soul is constrained to being in the same space that my physical mortal body fills in time. I can not be in your body, in the space where your body and soul reside, at the same time you are in that space. For me to take up that space, you have to move out of it, but apparently another type of being can also reside there with you, another spirit not subject to the limitations that I am.
Here in this dimension where we live mortal lives in our bodies we can change. The condition of my soul can be one way today and different tomorrow. Change presumes time, a before and after. I can be in the state of grace today and mortal sin tomorrow or vice versa. My body also can change. I can be healthy today and sick tomorrow, or vice versa. When my body dies my soul becomes fixed. It remains in the state it is in at the time of my death, either in the state of grace or without grace. In other words, I can repent of my sins here in time, but that change becomes impossible once I leave time and receive my eternal judgement.
There is a lot of mystery in this that we can not grasp.
We say God is unchangeable, immutable. We are the objects of His mercy. God is merciful. We are not eternal. We had a beginning. God is pure act. There is no potency in God. What He is, He is eternally. God is merciful to His creatures who all have a beginning. God therefore became merciful. God therefore changed. Change presumes time, a before and after.
Once again; that which is infinite and eternal can not change. Yet God became merciful. That which is infinitely great can not become greater. We receivers of mercy glorify God in His mercy. God can love Himself or know Himself and we can grasp the Trinity in this way, but He can not be merciful to Himself. He does not need mercy. We creatures do. We sinners who have a beginning do. The immutable One, became merciful. He who can not change, changed. In order for there to be change there has to be time, a before and an after. If God changed in becoming merciful He is in time, but the eternal can not be in time.
Why does God have mercy on us? He pities us. Why does He pity us? We are helpless. We are defenseless. We are wounded and sore and in pain. We suffer. We are crushed by the power of sin and evil and can not escape its slavery. He pities us, because we are weak and have no defense unless He becomes our savior. God is moved to pity by our sad plight.
God is omnipotent, all powerful. He is the unmoved mover, the source and beginning of all things, the giver of life and almighty creator. We creatures are powerless to escape the bondage of sin. We are helpless to help ourselves. We rely on God for our help. Our plight causes God to be moved. By His power, out of pity, He sets us who are powerless free.
The powerless moved the All Powerful. The most pitiable, weak, helpless, powerless, inglorious creature, moves the All Powerful.
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peary
Guest
To equate our eternal principle as human beings to “neat garbage” is absolutely disgusting. I stand by what I have written.“Henceforth eternal” is like saying “neat garbage”. It’s an oxymoron.
The definition of eternity is “outside of time.”
It does NOT mean the same thing as “unending.”
Only GOD is eternal–that is, with no beginning and no end and outside of time.
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mikee
Guest
I think the word eternal can also be used to mean “having no end” while having a beginning; like in the case of eternal punishment and eternal life. But strictly speaking, only God is eternal.Only GOD is eternal–that is, with no beginning and no end and outside of time.
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redrosetea
Guest
Mary was free from orginal sin…she was created pure to be a stainless vessel from ChristThis is from the Baltimore Catechism no. 4, or Explanation of the Baltimore Catechism, cerca 1891.
Q. What other effects followed from the sin of our first parents?
A. Our nature was corrupted by the sin of our first parents, which darkened our understanding, weakened our will, and left us a strong inclination to evil.
Our “nature was corrupted” is what I have said of the body rebelling against the soul. Our “understanding darkened:” Adam knew much more without study than the most intelligent men could learn now with constant application. Before his fall he saw things clearly and understood them well, but after his sin everything had to be learned by the slow process of study. Then the “will was weakened:” Before he fell he could easily resist temptation, for his will was strong. You know we sin by the will, because unless we wish to do the evil we commit no sin; and if absolutely forced by others to do wrong, we are free from the guilt as long as our will despises and protests against the action. If forced, for example, to break my neighbor’s window, I have not to answer in my conscience for the unjust act, because my will did not consent. So, on every occasion on which we sin, it is the will that yields to the temptation. After Adam’s sin his will became weak and less able to resist temptation; and as we are sharers in his misfortune, we find great difficulty at times in overcoming sinful inclinations. But no matter how violent the temptation or how prolonged and fierce the struggle against it, we can always be victorious if determined not to yield; for God gives us sufficient grace to resist every temptation; and if anyone should excuse his fall by saying he could not help sinning, he would be guilty of falsehood.
“A strong inclination” to do wrong-that is, unless always on our guard against it. Our Lord once cautioned His Apostles (Matt. 26:41) to watch and pray lest they fall into temptation; teaching us also by the same warning that, besides praying against our spiritual enemies, we must watch their maneuvers and be ever ready to repel their attacks.
Christ had to be pure…if Mary would have had any taint it would have been genetically passed to Christ…she was his mother they share the same DNA
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bpbasilphx
Guest
There is a paradox here.Mary was free from orginal sin…she was created pure to be a stainless vessel from Christ
Christ had to be pure…if Mary would have had any taint it would have been genetically passed to Christ…she was his mother they share the same DNA
Why didn’t Mary receive the taint of original sin passed genetically from her parents Ss Joachim and Anna?
If Mary was the subject of a special creation, as you are saying, why would not not have sufficed to simply wait and make Jesus the special creation?
This is one reason why Orthodoxy objects to the Immaculate Conception as defined by Pius IX.
I also find the notion that original sin is passed through DNA at least questionable, as this sounds too much like the heresies that have taught that matter, including the human body, is intrincally evil.
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diggerdomer
Guest
I don’t view the IC as saying Mary is a special creation. Rather, it was a unique (privileged) action of redemption/salvation that God (Christ) acted outside the normal pattern in freeing Mary of original sin.There is a paradox here.
Why didn’t Mary receive the taint of original sin passed genetically from her parents Ss Joachim and Anna?
If Mary was the subject of a special creation, as you are saying, why would not not have sufficed to simply wait and make Jesus the special creation?
This is one reason why Orthodoxy objects to the Immaculate Conception as defined by Pius IX.
I also find the notion that original sin is passed through DNA at least questionable, as this sounds too much like the heresies that have taught that matter, including the human body, is intrincally evil.
I agree…the DNA idea leads to troubling areas. To say the least.
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grandfather
Guest
There is a paradox here.
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redrosetea
Guest
Because she was conceived without sin…She was made pure by God for the mission she was going to do for humanityThere is a paradox here.
Why didn’t Mary receive the taint of original sin passed genetically from her parents Ss Joachim and Anna?
If Mary was the subject of a special creation, as you are saying, why would not not have sufficed to simply wait and make Jesus the special creation?
This is one reason why Orthodoxy objects to the Immaculate Conception as defined by Pius IX.
I also find the notion that original sin is passed through DNA at least questionable, as this sounds too much like the heresies that have taught that matter, including the human body, is intrincally evil.
We get the taint of original sin from Adam and Eve…Mary was created without this
She was the ark of the new covenant…She was a pure vessel created for a mission by God
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mangy_dog
Guest
Andru, Andru, Andru…Mary never had original sin. But did she have the darkening of the intellect and the weakening of the will which flow from original sin?
When did Mary have understanding of the Trinity? Surely the latest possible answer would be at the Incarnation.
Is Mary part of the body of Christ? She is the mother of the body of Christ, correct? Is she so elevated that she is not even part of the body?
Mary could not sin. Was Mary’s inability to sin simply God’s prohibition or did it flow according to necessity from something within her?
The perfection of Christians is union with Jesus. Is this also Mary’s perfection? Was she not completely one with Christ from the moment of the Incarnation? I read somewhere that Mary’s spirituality is about “divine maternity,” which is higher than the “union” route.
I read that Mary’s “initial grace” was probably greater than the “final grace” of all other saints combined!
According to Thomas Aquinas, Moses and Paul enjoyed on earth, for a bit of time, the beatific vision (this is in the Summa Theologica, unless I misread it). What about Mary?
When Jesus rose from the dead, or around that time, people such as Socrates, David, Isaiah, good folks etc. were admitted to the beatific vision. What was going on with Mary? At that point in time, before Mary’s death, was Mary less holy, less knowledgeable, less divinized than a soul in heaven?
Was Mary able, in a mystical way, to teach Jesus holiness as his spiritual counselor?
Does Mary have perfect or imperfect knowledge of the Trinity?
Is the beauty of Mary’s soul in heaven finite or infinite?
We know, I think, that Jesus’ humanity was the most beautiful and perfect of all men. Was Mary the most beautiful and perfect of all women, physically?
Does Mary reign over Jesus in heaven?
Mary was concieved without the stain and consequence of original sin. Her virtues are in light of Jesus’ virtues.
In reality only God is eternal and infinite…all others are created beings and therefore finite.
Mary does not reign over Jesus in heaven or anywhere else. It is a rediculuous premise.
Jesus’ humanity and divinity are called the hipostatic union. His divinity and humanity are without opposite or comparison…no one qualifies to compare because He is one in being with the Father.
Mary was pre-redeemed from her conception. She is part of the mystical body of Christ.
Her divine maternity is in light of her son’s virtues and her mission…Mother of all the redeemed by her Son Jesus Christ.
Mary’s inability to sin flows from her unique priviledge which in no way precludes her will and intellect, to desire only God’s will.
Your questions belie either a deep confusion or a desire to confound (if possible) the devotion of people on this thread.
Either way, you need help. You poor soul… A little more reverence and a little less intrigue will bring you to the light of truth.
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bpbasilphx
Guest
**But we HAVE no “eternal principle”. Only God does.To equate our eternal principle as human beings to “neat garbage” is absolutely disgusting. I stand by what I have written.
Therefore, to say that mere mortals have anything about them eternal by nature is truly “neat garbage.” I, too, stand by what I have written.**
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redrosetea
Guest
Christ was fully human and fully divine…Humans have dna is is what we are made from…perhaps DNA doesn’t carry original sin…but it did carry the humanity of Christ through His mothers side of the familyThere is a paradox here.
Why didn’t Mary receive the taint of original sin passed genetically from her parents Ss Joachim and Anna?
If Mary was the subject of a special creation, as you are saying, why would not not have sufficed to simply wait and make Jesus the special creation?
This is one reason why Orthodoxy objects to the Immaculate Conception as defined by Pius IX.
I also find the notion that original sin is passed through DNA at least questionable, as this sounds too much like the heresies that have taught that matter, including the human body, is intrincally evil.
She was created without sin…a new Eve…The Bible begins and ends with a woman and a serpent, and she crushes his head
Of all the women that God could ever use, He chose Mary…if God only wanted a womb any of us women would have been able to be Christ’s Mother…But we can’t ,we are tainted with the sin of Adam and Eve…Mary wasn’t
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