Some Questions on Purgatory

[CuriousMike]

I wanted to bring this idea to a “group discussion” here on CAF, as I’ve been discussing with another person the beliefs I hold, and those of the Catholic Church.

What I understand about Purgatory is that it is before Heaven. We are “paying for” the temporal effects of sin; i.e. the analogy of the broken window, in that one is FORGIVEN, but the broken window still remains.

The person I spoke with suggested (An Anglican) suggested that Jesus had already payed the price for our sins, and that belief in this idea could negate from His work: Both in our “forgiveness” and being “saved.”

What I want to ask is a couple of things. Please forgive my ideas here, as they perhaps still lean slightly Protestant.

• Did Jesus’ sacrifice also ‘cover’ this temporal effect of sin?
• Are we being “cleansed” of temporal sin, or being punished for it?
  • To extend from above, could Purgatory be the place where Jesus’ sacrifice for us is made ultimately clear? Could it be that the blood He shed for the forgiveness of our sins “cause suffering” as we are purified?*

*This is analogy I thought of, which convinced me to post.

 

[Gorgias]

• Did Jesus’ sacrifice also ‘cover’ this temporal effect of sin?

That’s an easy one: the term “the temporal effects of sin” means the way that we are affected – ‘damaged’, as it were – by the sins we commit. If we were not ‘damaged’ by our sinfulness, then we wouldn’t sin. Therefore, if your friend is correct, then that means that people wouldn’t sin. (This is why it’s an easy question: it has the same answer as “is it your observation that people who are saved by Jesus’ sacrifice are immune from sin?”) Since the answer is ‘no’, it’s clear that the “temporal effects of sin” are still evident in us.

• Are we being “cleansed” of temporal sin, or being punished for it?

Not “temporal sin” – “the temporal effects of sin”. ‘Purgatory’ is a description of the process of being cleansed – not punished.

- To extend from above, could Purgatory be the place where Jesus' sacrifice for us is made ultimately clear?

As we are purged of our imperfections, I think it’s reasonable to presume that our relationship with Jesus improves (to the point that we’re in union with Him in heaven). I don’t know that I’d say that the primary effect of Purgatory is intellectual (i.e., that we gain in understanding), but it’s probably a helpful way to think about the range of effects that result from the process.

Could it be that the blood He shed for the forgiveness of our sins “cause suffering” as we are purified?

Hmm… I’m not really sure what you mean by that. You’re right – it does sound a bit ‘Protestant-ish’. “The blood of Christ causes suffering”? Hmm… that doesn’t sound quite right.

 

[CuriousMike]

Hmm… I’m not really sure what you mean by that. You’re right – it does sound a bit ‘Protestant-ish’. “The blood of Christ causes suffering”? Hmm… that doesn’t sound quite right.

First of all, a big thanks for your response. I greatly appreciate it.

Now - I think what I meant related to our works being tested by fire - could it be that the cleansing does indeed induce some healthy suffering?

 

[GEddie]

I have often thought that Purgatory was something like a customs-line for life everlasting, where one “pays” the “tariff” for the sinful souvenirs of human life. Except that both the tariffs and the souvenirs are part of one self.

Or rather, that it was like detox or withdrawal (which, unlike custom-lines, I have no experience in) from our favorite sins. Death, after all, does not change us, it just disrupts our beings. We come out of it the same persons we were when we could breathe. But our remaining attachments to sin will prevent our full experience of life everlasting, and so must be worked off.

Remember, also, that there is no succession of time in Purgatory. Time is physical and can be experienced only while physically alive.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Memaw]

I have often thought that Purgatory was something like a customs-line for life everlasting, where one “pays” the “tariff” for the sinful souvenirs of human life. Except that both the tariffs and the souvenirs are part of one self.

Or rather, that it was like detox or withdrawal (which, unlike custom-lines, I have no experience in) from our favorite sins. Death, after all, does not change us, it just disrupts our beings. We come out of it the same persons we were when we could breathe. But our remaining attachments to sin will prevent our full experience of life everlasting, and so must be worked off.

Remember, also, that there is no succession of time in Purgatory. Time is physical and can be experienced only while physically alive.

ICXC NIKA

Rev 21: 27, 1Jn 5:16-17, Mt 5:26, Mt 12:362Macc 12:44-46, 1Dor 3:15, 2Tim 1:16-18. Study these. God Bless, Memaw

 

[Techno2000]

I wanted to bring this idea to a “group discussion” here on CAF, as I’ve been discussing with another person the beliefs I hold, and those of the Catholic Church.

What I understand about Purgatory is that it is before Heaven. We are “paying for” the temporal effects of sin; i.e. the analogy of the broken window, in that one is FORGIVEN, but the broken window still remains.

The person I spoke with suggested (An Anglican) suggested that Jesus had already payed the price for our sins, and that belief in this idea could negate from His work: Both in our “forgiveness” and being “saved.”

What I want to ask is a couple of things. Please forgive my ideas here, as they perhaps still lean slightly Protestant.

• Did Jesus’ sacrifice also ‘cover’ this temporal effect of sin?
• Are we being “cleansed” of temporal sin, or being punished for it?
  • To extend from above, could Purgatory be the place where Jesus’ sacrifice for us is made ultimately clear? Could it be that the blood He shed for the forgiveness of our sins “cause suffering” as we are purified?*

*This is analogy I thought of, which convinced me to post.

catholictreasury.info/books/treatise_on_purgatory/
catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=6253

 

[GEddie]

Rev 21: 27, 1Jn 5:16-17, Mt 5:26, Mt 12:362Macc 12:44-46, 1Dor 3:15, 2Tim 1:16-18. Study these. God Bless, Memaw

Memaw, anybody can slosh around Scriptural references.

If you want to disagree with me, why don’t you just state your points of disagreement?

ICXC NIKA

 

[Crusaderbear]

I thought they did away with purgatory back in the 70’s…but i guess that was limbo?

If it ultimately leads to salvation and heaven, then it’s a good thing!

 

[GEddie]

I thought they did away with purgatory back in the 70’s…but i guess that was limbo?

If it ultimately leads to salvation and heaven, then it’s a good thing!

Purgatory has gone nowhere.

In fact, it’s in Colorado.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Beryllos]

I have often thought that Purgatory was something like a customs-line for life everlasting, where one “pays” the “tariff” for the sinful souvenirs of human life. Except that both the tariffs and the souvenirs are part of one self.

Or rather, that it was like detox or withdrawal (which, unlike custom-lines, I have no experience in) from our favorite sins. Death, after all, does not change us, it just disrupts our beings. We come out of it the same persons we were when we could breathe. But our remaining attachments to sin will prevent our full experience of life everlasting, and so must be worked off.

Remember, also, that there is no succession of time in Purgatory. Time is physical and can be experienced only while physically alive.

ICXC NIKA

That is similar to my view, that Purgatory is like army boot camp. (“Be all that you can be.”) Yeah, it’s hard, and it may hurt, but we endure it gladly in order to prepare ourselves to live in the glorious presence of God.

 

[Memaw]

Memaw, anybody can slosh around Scriptural references.

If you want to disagree with me, why don’t you just state your points of disagreement?

ICXC NIKA

Sacred Scriptures can do it much better than I, unless your to busy to read and study them. Also the CCC would help!!
I never did the homework for my kids or grandkids !! God Bless. Memaw

 

[HelenRose]

I find the Catholic Church’s doctrine of Purgatory comforting.

Beyond that, my ideas about purgatory are simply the thoughts of a blind person trying to imagine and understand what the color of blue may be like.

I don’t know if Purgatory is a door we pass through, or time, or space.

I have often imagined that Purgatory is the recognizing and facing the harm that we have done to others, either by a lack of action or action itself. I have imagined that Purgatory will not end for me until the ripples of my actions or inactions have come to an end with the saving grace and love of Christ.

 

[Memaw]

I find the Catholic Church’s doctrine of Purgatory comforting.

Beyond that, my ideas about purgatory are simply the thoughts of a blind person trying to imagine and understand what the color of blue may be like.

I don’t know if Purgatory is a door we pass through, or time, or space.

I have often imagined that Purgatory is the recognizing and facing the harm that we have done to others, either by a lack of action or action itself. I have imagined that Purgatory will not end for me until the ripples of my actions or inactions have come to an end with the saving grace and love of Christ.

AMEN, God Bless, Memaw

 

[Gorgias]

Sacred Scriptures can do it much better than I, unless your to busy to read and study them. Also the CCC would help!!
I never did the homework for my kids or grandkids !! God Bless. Memaw

Except that this isn’t a classroom, and you’re not our teacher, and there isn’t any ‘homework’ here.

Rather, this is a discussion. Throwing out citations, without bothering to discuss them or even quote them, isn’t exactly the most polite way to conduct a discussion.

For the sake of discussion, though…

Rev 21:27 – “nothing unclean will enter [The New Jerusalem], nor any[one] who does abominable things or tells lies. Only those will enter whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”

1 John 5:16-17 – “If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly.”

Mt 5:26 – “Amen, I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny.”

Mt 12:36 – “I tell you, on the day of judgment people will render an account for every careless word they speak.”

2Macc 12:44-46 – “if he [Judas Maccabeus] were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead.”

1Cor 3:15 – “But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.”

2Tim 1:16-18 – “May the Lord grant mercy to the family of Onesiphorus because he often gave me new heart and was not ashamed of my chains. But when he came to Rome, he promptly searched for me and found me. May the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that day. And you know very well the services he rendered in Ephesus.”

Like I said – just citing Scripture doesn’t help this conversation progress. There are even quotes here that don’t really address the questions in this thread (or, in some cases, might be construed to address these questions only by misunderstanding the Scripture).

 

[Memaw]

Except that this isn’t a classroom, and you’re not our teacher, and there isn’t any ‘homework’ here.

Rather, this is a discussion. Throwing out citations, without bothering to discuss them or even quote them, isn’t exactly the most polite way to conduct a discussion.

For the sake of discussion, though…

Rev 21:27 – “nothing unclean will enter [The New Jerusalem], nor any[one] who does abominable things or tells lies. Only those will enter whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”

1 John 5:16-17 – “If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly.”

Mt 5:26 – “Amen, I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny.”

Mt 12:36 – “I tell you, on the day of judgment people will render an account for every careless word they speak.”

2Macc 12:44-46 – “if he [Judas Maccabeus] were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead.”

1Cor 3:15 – “But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.”

2Tim 1:16-18 – “May the Lord grant mercy to the family of Onesiphorus because he often gave me new heart and was not ashamed of my chains. But when he came to Rome, he promptly searched for me and found me. May the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that day. And you know very well the services he rendered in Ephesus.”

Like I said – just citing Scripture doesn’t help this conversation progress. There are even quotes here that don’t really address the questions in this thread (or, in some cases, might be construed to address these questions only by misunderstanding the Scripture).

Thank you, you must have more time on your hands than I do. Everyone give references to look up on here, and I never said it was a classroom, I was just making a point that you evidently didn’t get. The only one you might question is 2Tim 16-18 and Paul was praying for God’s Mercy for Onesiphorus on judgement day. Where do you suppose he was between death and Judgement day. (since it hasn’t even come yet) ?? Smarter folks than I have used these as references for Purgatory. Where do you think I got them?? God Bless, Memaw

 

[cornbread_r2]

…]

Remember, also, that there is no succession of time in Purgatory. Time is physical and can be experienced only while physically alive.

ICXC NIKA

If souls enter Purgatory in an imperfect state and leave in a perfect state, doesn’t that demonstrate a change and, therefore, a succession of time?

 

[WT1]

catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=6253

WOW just WOW! Brothers and Sisters please take the time to read this link…it is full of spiritual direction.

Lord Jesus Christ
Son of the Living God
Have mercy on me, a sinner.

 

[GEddie]

If souls enter Purgatory in an imperfect state and leave in a perfect state, doesn’t that demonstrate a change and, therefore, a succession of time?

As souls are not physical, no, not physical time.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Gorgias]

Thank you, you must have more time on your hands than I do.

Nah… I just don’t think it’s helpful to throw out a bunch of citations and expect that to be sufficient.

I was just making a point that you evidently didn’t get.

“Shut up and read your Bible”?

No… apparently, I’m not the only one that didn’t get it.

The only one you might question is 2Tim 16-18 and Paul was praying for God’s Mercy for Onesiphorus on judgement day.

More than that.

The Matthew 5 reference is problematic, for a few reasons, not the least being that it talks about ‘punishment’ – which purgatory is not.

2 Maccabees talks about prayer for the dead, not purgatory per se.

Smarter folks than I have used these as references for Purgatory. Where do you think I got them??

My guess would be that you got them in places that explained them, rather than just throwing out the citations.

 

[cornbread_r2]

As souls are not physical, no, not physical time.

ICXC NIKA

The souls in Purgatory undergo change. Change denotes the succession of time. If they aren’t experiencing physical time, then what kind of time are they experiencing?