Some Questions

[MatthewScott]

Hey guys,

I came across this site browsing the web today. Read some of the articles and forum posts on this site and found it thought provoking. I’ve never completely understood Catholic doctrine. I have some questions that I’m sure could be found via google or just by doing some reading, but it seems there are a lot of smart people here so I’d like to ask you guys direct. That okay?

Here’s two questions to start…

1. 
   *]How does a Catholic love God?
   *]Why is there a pope?

 

[CrispSnowflake]

1. We love God like everyone else.

Matthew 22:36-40

New International Version (NIV)

36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’** 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

We can do so through the sacraments, through fasting, through prayer, through acts of charity, etc.

1. There is a Pope because Peter was the first pope. Jesus wants us to be unified. He wants us to have someone who will lead us to Him; to guide His Church. Being Pope is a very hard ‘job’.

“And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.” -Matthew 16:18

"The third time he said to him, “Simon son of John, do you love me?” Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, “Do you love me?” He said, “Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you.” Jesus said, “Feed my sheep.” -John 21:17

"Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand.”- Matthew 12:25

I hope that gives you some insight! **

 

[MatthewScott]

1. We love God like everyone else.

Matthew 22:36-40

New International Version (NIV)

36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’** 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

We can do so through the sacraments, through fasting, through prayer, through acts of charity, etc.

1. There is a Pope because Peter was the first pope. Jesus wants us to be unified. He wants us to have someone who will lead us to Him; to guide His Church. Being Pope is a very hard ‘job’.

“And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.” -Matthew 16:18

"The third time he said to him, “Simon son of John, do you love me?” Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, “Do you love me?” He said, “Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you.” Jesus said, “Feed my sheep.” -John 21:17

"Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand.”- Matthew 12:25

I hope that gives you some insight! **

Thanks for the reply. I have some follow up questions to the first question.

In Matthew 22 he says which is the greatest commandment in the Law. So he’s clearly asking which command is the greatest of ALL the commandments in the Law… So when Jesus responds he’s not discrediting the other commands but say they all hang on the first 2 commands because obeying God is love (EDIT: I’m refering to John 14:5 in my statement that loving God is obeying his commands). So then logically wouldn’t true love be keeping his commandments? A lot of God’s old testament commands were eternal. Am I misunderstanding something here?

 

[CrispSnowflake]

Thanks for the reply. I have some follow up questions to the first question.

In Matthew 22 he says which is the greatest commandment in the Law. So he’s clearly asking which command is the greatest of ALL the commandments in the Law… So when Jesus responds he’s not discrediting the other commands but say they all hang on the first 2 commands because obeying God is love (EDIT: I’m refering to John 14:5 in my statement that loving God is obeying his commands). So then logically wouldn’t true love be keeping his commandments? A lot of God’s old testament commands were eternal. Am I misunderstanding something here?

No, I believe you are correct. The Catholic Church stills keeps the 10 Commandments.
I do not know 100% about Catholicism; I am still learning. I can try to help, but my help wouldn’t be the greatest, because I am only a teenager, trying to learn herself.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Thanks for the reply. I have some follow up questions to the first question.

In Matthew 22 he says which is the greatest commandment in the Law. So he’s clearly asking which command is the greatest of ALL the commandments in the Law… So when Jesus responds he’s not discrediting the other commands but say they all hang on the first 2 commands because obeying God is love (EDIT: I’m refering to John 14:5 in my statement that loving God is obeying his commands). So then logically wouldn’t true love be keeping his commandments? A lot of God’s old testament commands were eternal. Am I misunderstanding something here?

I don’t know. Which of God’s ‘eternal’ OT commands do you think we Catholics are breaking? and by what authority do you claim that any ‘old testament command’ is eternal? (Remember, the Bible does not define itself, so you can’t say, "because it’s in the Bible’.) I mean, when you read the OT there is a command there to kill your child if the child does wrong by blasphemy, etc. . . .well, we certainly don’t do that. Nor do we beat our slaves with a rod no thicker than an index finger. Nor do we consider women ‘unclean’ for menstruating and forbid them to touch things. Nor do we have any qualms about wearing clothing made up of two fibers or more. . .you get the idea. Nor do we Catholics keep kosher (see Acts), or insist that men be circumcised. .

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

MatthewScott;10943634]

Here’s two questions to start…

1. 
   *]How does a Catholic love God?

1. 
   Through loving our neighbor as ourselves
   

   *]Why is there a pope?

   So that God’s Love can be revealed (always given) to us through His Church, which He built Himself upon our first Pope (Peter) Through His only begotten Son Jesus Christ, so that God is all and in all amen.
   
   You want specifics? It is all written mystically hidden in the Old Testament of the bible, and it (Old testament) is revealed in all of the New Testament of the bible.
   
   You want to see the visible reality of this Love? You can see it in every historical Pope since the resurrection of our dear Lord Jesus Christ, who has been present to give witness in every age to the present day with unbroken apostolic succession directly back to the apostle Peter.
   
   You want proof? Look to all the first 30+ popes who were all martyred for our Catholic faith since Peter and all the other Catholic Saints and Martyrs who give witness to Jesus Christ.
   
   Peace be with you

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Through loving our neighbor as ourselves

So that God’s Love can be revealed (always given) to us through His Church, which He built Himself upon our first Pope (Peter) Through His only begotten Son Jesus Christ, so that God is all and in all amen.

You want specifics? It is all written mystically hidden in the Old Testament of the bible, and it (Old testament) is revealed in all of the New Testament of the bible.

You want to see the visible reality of this Love? You can see it in every historical Pope since the resurrection of our dear Lord Jesus Christ, who has been present to give witness in every age to the present day with unbroken apostolic succession directly back to the apostle Peter.

You want proof? Look to all the first 30+ popes who were all martyred for our Catholic faith since Peter and all the other Catholic Saints and Martyrs who give witness to Jesus Christ.

Peace be with you

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Thanks for the reply. I have some follow up questions to the first question.

In Matthew 22 he says which is the greatest commandment in the Law. So he’s clearly asking which command is the greatest of ALL the commandments in the Law… So when Jesus responds he’s not discrediting the other commands but say they all hang on the first 2 commands because obeying God is love (EDIT: I’m refering to John 14:5 in my statement that loving God is obeying his commands). So then logically wouldn’t true love be keeping his commandments? A lot of God’s old testament commands were eternal. Am I misunderstanding something here?

I believe you miss the whole of Jesus Teaching here? These two commandments which He gave the Church to Love God and love of neighbor Fulfill the law and the prophets. They don’t discount them.

If one is obeying these two commandments in Love, the law and the prophets cannot condemn these by divine law because God is Love. When one breaks from the commandment of Love, the law is always here to correct, discipline, convict and condemn those in sin. When there is no repentance of sin. The Church is here so that sinners can enter into God’s mercy and grace, and for sinners to repent in our ministery of reconciliation.

The law is for sinners not for the righteous, and those who are in Christ become justified and righteous. Where there is a death the law cannot judge. And if you are baptised in Christ, you have died to sin and self and are raised in Jesus Christ.

 

[MatthewScott]

I don’t know. Which of God’s ‘eternal’ OT commands do you think we Catholics are breaking? and by what authority do you claim that any ‘old testament command’ is eternal? (Remember, the Bible does not define itself, so you can’t say, "because it’s in the Bible’.) I mean, when you read the OT there is a command there to kill your child if the child does wrong by blasphemy, etc. . . .well, we certainly don’t do that. Nor do we beat our slaves with a rod no thicker than an index finger. Nor do we consider women ‘unclean’ for menstruating and forbid them to touch things. Nor do we have any qualms about wearing clothing made up of two fibers or more. . .you get the idea. Nor do we Catholics keep kosher (see Acts), or insist that men be circumcised. .

Well I didn’t state Catholics are breaking any. And maybe eternal wasn’t the right word to use, but it would seem the practically are.

Deuteronomy 7:9
9 Know therefore that the Lord thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;

Leviticus 23:14,21,31
It shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations.

Matthew 5:18-19
Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or tittle shall no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven.

You say the bible can’t define itself? Are you saying we can’t use the bible to discern the truth of our faith? I don’t understand your statement.

It’s not that I don’t believe but I’d like to see the command where it tells you to kill your child if they do wrong. Could you please show me where that is?

And you say we don’t “do” all these things in a manner that sounds like some of the commands are stupid or foolish… God’s law is perfect:
“The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.” Psalm 19:7

I’m not saying that we must do all things, but it just seems to me like most doctorines (not just Catholic) base their ideology on mans understanding of what is right and perfect and not what scripture says.

 

[MatthewScott]

I believe you miss the whole of Jesus Teaching here? These two commandments which He gave the Church to Love God and love of neighbor Fulfill the law and the prophets. They don’t discount them.

If one is obeying these two commandments in Love, the law and the prophets cannot condemn these by divine law because God is Love. When one breaks from the commandment of Love, the law is always here to correct, discipline, convict and condemn those in sin. When there is no repentance of sin. The Church is here so that sinners can enter into God’s mercy and grace, and for sinners to repent in our ministery of reconciliation.

The law is for sinners not for the righteous, and those who are in Christ become justified and righteous. Where there is a death the law cannot judge. And if you are baptised in Christ, you have died to sin and self and are raised in Jesus Christ.

Jesus never gave those commands. God the father did. Jesus didn’t come to preach a new law. He taught the old given by his father. He simply said the first 2 were the most important… which makes sense. The people at the time were keeping the law to gain salvation… we know that isn’t possible nor is true because Jesus and his disciples preached against that. But they did preach keeping God’s commands in love.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

MatthewScott;10943992]Well I didn’t state Catholics are breaking any. And maybe eternal wasn’t the right word to use, but it would seem the practically are.

I’m a Catholic so that includes me;

Deuteronomy 7:9
9 Know therefore that the Lord thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;

Done, Loving God with all my heart, soul and strength;

Leviticus 23:14,21,31
It shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations.

Done; These statute’s are given to establish peace with one another and in doing so keeps their peace with God. Loving my neighbor as myself, many times I fail, but I keep working out my salvation with fear and trembling.

Matthew 5:18-19
Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or tittle shall no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven.

Done; Jesus fulfilled every “tittle” of the word, because He is the Word of God made flesh, He was in the beginning with God and the Word was God, and life came through the Word and became flesh. To follow Jesus and obey His commands, is adhering to all of the Word and every “tittle” of the Word of God.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Well I didn’t state Catholics are breaking any. And maybe eternal wasn’t the right word to use, but it would seem the practically are.

Seems like your opinion here."

You say the bible can’t define itself? Are you saying we can’t use the bible to discern the truth of our faith? I don’t understand your statement. I’m not saying that at all. However, the Bible is an OBJECT. Objects cannot define themselves. They must have an authority to state clearly the MEANING of that object.

It’s not that I don’t believe but I’d like to see the command where it tells you to kill your child if they do wrong. Could you please show me where that is? Absolutely, Deteuronomy 20: If a man have a stubborn and unruly son, who will not hear the commandments of his father or mother, and being corrected, slighteth obedience: [19] They shall take him and bring him to the ancients of his city, and to the gate of judgment, [20] And shall say to them: This our son is rebellious and stubborn, he slighteth hearing our admonitions, he giveth himself to revelling, and to debauchery and banquetings:
[21] The people of the city shall stone him: and he shall die, that you may take away the evil out of the midst of you, and all Israel hearing it may be afraid. %between%

And you say we don’t “do” all these things in a manner that sounds like some of the commands are stupid or foolish… God’s law is perfect I have no quarrel with God’s true commands for His people.

I’m not saying that we must do all things, but it just seems to me like most doctorines (not just Catholic) base their ideology on mans understanding of what is right and perfect and not what scripture says.

Who interprets Scripture? Who GAVE us Scripture? (The Catholic Church).

If Scripture says (and it does, in John 6), that Jesus says that we must eat HIS FLESH and drink HIS BLOOD,

I daresay YOU will tell me this is ‘figurative’ and Scripture ‘proves it’ because later on Jesus speaks of being a Vine (obviously figurative).

BUT one can speak figuratively in one sentence and literally in another. And Jesus never tells us that his Words, although Spirit and Life, are not ALSO ABSOLUTELY LITERAL. In fact, people LEFT Him because of that, and He NEVER CORRECTED HIMSELF. So they are in fact Literal, and we have an authority through the Spirit to tell us so (the Church).

But some claim the Spirit tells them otherwise. However, the Spirit cannot state two contradictory things as truth, so only ONE person can actually have the correct teaching.

Catholics rely on God-breathed, inerrant Scripture, as authoritatively interpreted by The Church who is the pillar and bulwark of all Truth, per St. Paul’s words…

 

[MatthewScott]

I’m a Catholic so that includes me;

I think there is some confusion (maybe its on my end) I still never said Catholics (including you) were breaking any commands… so I don’t know what youre saying by “I’m a Catholic”.

Done, Loving God with all my heart, soul and strength;

So if I love my parents but always disobey them am I truly loving? The bible tells us how to love God. Look what John and all of scripture says. For example the verse
John 15:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments

Done; These statute’s are given to establish peace with one another and in doing so keeps their peace with God. Loving my neighbor as myself, many times I fail, but I keep working out my salvation with fear and trembling.

The statues can be summed up in loving your neighbor as yourself and loving the lord your God for sure, but scripture tells us what that means. It’s more involved than just warm fuzzy feelings.

Done; Jesus fulfilled every “tittle” of the word, because He is the Word of God made flesh, He was in the beginning with God and the Word was God, and life came through the Word and became flesh. To follow Jesus and obey His commands, is adhering to all of the Word and every “tittle” of the Word of God.

I agree with you for the most part but it says not until heaven and earth pass away… that has not happened… so every tittle of the word still stands. Yes Jesus was in the beginning and was the word made flesh but where did this ever change the truth about the law?

Everyone seems to think that because Jesus said love the lord your God and love your neighbor as yourself that must mean all we need is fuzzy feelings to the other person and to God as if there was no definition of what was right and wrong yet Moses was given the law as to what was right and wrong, Jesus also lived that out. Anytime he taught against something that may have seemed like Old testament law he was in fact teaching against the Judaizers and their man made traditions and their added laws.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Jesus never gave those commands. God the father did. Jesus didn’t come to preach a new law. He taught the old given by his father. He simply said the first 2 were the most important… which makes sense. The people at the time were keeping the law to gain salvation… we know that isn’t possible nor is true because Jesus and his disciples preached against that. But they did preach keeping God’s commands in love.

Jesus and the Father – and the Spirit–are all one and the same.

Do you believe in the Trinity --Three Divine Persons in One God?

 

[MatthewScott]

Who interprets Scripture? Who GAVE us Scripture? (The Catholic Church).

If Scripture says (and it does, in John 6), that Jesus says that we must eat HIS FLESH and drink HIS BLOOD,

I daresay YOU will tell me this is ‘figurative’ and Scripture ‘proves it’ because later on Jesus speaks of being a Vine (obviously figurative).

BUT one can speak figuratively in one sentence and literally in another. And Jesus never tells us that his Words, although Spirit and Life, are not ALSO ABSOLUTELY LITERAL. In fact, people LEFT Him because of that, and He NEVER CORRECTED HIMSELF. So they are in fact Literal, and we have an authority through the Spirit to tell us so (the Church).

But some claim the Spirit tells them otherwise. However, the Spirit cannot state two contradictory things as truth, so only ONE person can actually have the correct teaching.

Catholics rely on God-breathed, inerrant Scripture, as authoritatively interpreted by The Church who is the pillar and bulwark of all Truth, per St. Paul’s words…

I think I understand what you’re saying. Essentially you’re saying how could I have authority to interpret or anyone for that matter. It needs to be left to the church (catholic at that) to interpret. Correct? So you think men outside of the papacy cannot be led by the spirit to truth found in the scripture? (probably because of the words given to Peter?)

 

[MatthewScott]

Jesus and the Father – and the Spirit–are all one and the same.

Do you believe in the Trinity --Three Divine Persons in One God?

I do and that’s why Jesus would have never preached against God perfect law. My point is that by some admission it seems many think that all you need to do is love God (using the emotional feeling) and not through obedience. Yet thats not supported by scripture.

If scripture says to keep his commands to love him, you have to examine his commands not just the two that the rest hang on (love).

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

MatthewScott;10944172]I think there is some confusion (maybe its on my end) I still never said Catholics (including you) were breaking any commands… so I don’t know what youre saying by “I’m a Catholic”

Generally speaking, I fall under your categorical statement of “Catholic’s”.

So if I love my parents but always disobey them am I truly loving?

Parents are loved not just by obedience by their children, we love them without any payment in return, a slave does not have this same love relationship to his master. The son obeys because of Love without payment, the slave obeys his master for payment, and if he disobeys is subject to the master’s discipline. Whereby a son of the Father is free although can be chastized by his father, nonetheless it is done out of Love for the Son, not the law of a slave.

The bible tells us how to love God. Look what John and all of scripture says. For example the verse
John 15:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments

See above;

The statues can be summed up in loving your neighbor as yourself and loving the lord your God for sure, but scripture tells us what that means. It’s more involved than just warm fuzzy feelings.

You have a misunderstanding of Love of God in the Catholic Church. It has nothing to do with warm fuzzy feelings. Our Love has to do with sacrifice an action that responds to the faith, it is here where works and faith are joined together that reveals our works from our faith. I don’t think our Catholic martyrs went to their death’s because they had a fuzzy feeliing, they went to their death’s for Love of God and Christ’s Body which is the Church living.

I agree with you for the most part but it says not until heaven and earth pass away… that has not happened… so every tittle of the word still stands. Yes Jesus was in the beginning and was the word made flesh but where did this ever change the truth about the law?

It didnt’, Jesus fulfilled the Law and Prophets, He did not destroy them. NO man can fulfill the law himself.

Everyone seems to think that because Jesus said love the lord your God and love your neighbor as yourself that must mean all we need is fuzzy feelings to the other person and to God as if there was no definition of what was right and wrong yet Moses was given the law as to what was right and wrong, Jesus also lived that out. Anytime he taught against something that may have seemed like Old testament law he was in fact teaching against the Judaizers and their man made traditions and their added laws.

Were ok here, except for the part of a fuzzy feeling; God is never a feeling, and divine Love is never a fuzzy feeling, Love is an action and a sacrifice, Look at a crucifix, this reveals the Love which Catholics possess from their baptism.

 

[MatthewScott]

Absolutely, Deteuronomy 20: If a man have a stubborn and unruly son, who will not hear the commandments of his father or mother, and being corrected, slighteth obedience: [19] They shall take him and bring him to the ancients of his city, and to the gate of judgment, [20] And shall say to them: This our son is rebellious and stubborn, he slighteth hearing our admonitions, he giveth himself to revelling, and to debauchery and banquetings:
[21] The people of the city shall stone him: and he shall die, that you may take away the evil out of the midst of you, and all Israel hearing it may be afraid.

Missed this one.

Thanks for finding that. Before Jesus died and made atonement for our sins we would have been accountable to the same punishment by our sins. God is holy and does not accept sin. Think if Jesus hadn’t come we’d probably all have already received our death penalty since we are all worthy of it and unworthy of the sacrifice Jesus made at the cross. Not sure how this affects obedience to God’s law though. It’s evidence that we no longer are killed when we sin but that doesn’t change the law.

 

[MatthewScott]

Generally speaking, I fall under your categorical statement of “Catholic’s”.

Parents are loved not just by obedience by their children, we love them without any payment in return, a slave does not have this same love relationship to his master. The son obeys because of Love without payment, the slave obeys his master for payment, and if he disobeys is subject to the master’s discipline. Whereby a son of the Father is free although can be chastized by his father, nonetheless it is done out of Love for the Son, not the law of a slave.

See above;

You have a misunderstanding of Love of God in the Catholic Church. It has nothing to do with warm fuzzy feelings. Our Love has to do with sacrifice an action that responds to the faith, it is here where works and faith are joined together that reveals our works from our faith. I don’t think our Catholic martyrs went to their death’s because they had a fuzzy feeliing, they went to their death’s for Love of God and Christ’s Body which is the Church living.

It didnt’, Jesus fulfilled the Law and Prophets, He did not destroy them. NO man can fulfill the law himself.

Were ok here, except for the part of a fuzzy feeling; God is never a feeling, and divine Love is never a fuzzy feeling, Love is an action and a sacrifice, Look at a crucifix, this reveals the Love which Catholics possess from their baptism.

Hey those were some good answers. I don’t agree with all of them but I’ll let the spirit guide my understanding in scripture about what is right and wrong. I appreciate all the answers guys. In searching for truth I may sometimes come across interrogating and I appreciate everyone keeping a cool head. Makes studying much easier. Thanks for the discussion. I gotta get back to work now.

Feel free to post further statements or answers… I’ll probably get a chance to read more later.

 

[pablope]

I think I understand what you’re saying. Essentially you’re saying how could I have authority to interpret or anyone for that matter. It needs to be left to the church (catholic at that) to interpret. Correct? So you think men outside of the papacy cannot be led by the spirit to truth found in the scripture? (probably because of the words given to Peter?)

Well…have you given it a thought as to what happens when anyone who reads the Bible can interpret the passages any one wants to?

So you think men outside of the papacy cannot be led by the spirit to truth found in the scripture? (probably because of the words given to Peter?

Jesus promised the guidance of the Holy Spirit to the Apostles and the Church to lead them in truth…and gates of hades shall not prevail against the Church…not to individual interpretation.

Let me cite the example of St. Paul:

Galatians 1:18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas and remained with him fifteen days.
Galatians 2:2 I went in response to a revelation and, meeting privately with those esteemed as leaders, I presented to them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles. I wanted to be sure I was not running and had not been running my race in vain.

Paul had a direct revelation from Christ. Yet, from the two passages above, he goes to visit Cephas/Peter and submits himself to Peter. Gal 2: 2 states his purpose…to present his gospel/message to make sure it is in line with the Apostles and what they were handed down from Christ.

And think about his passage from John:

from 1John 4… Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world……………6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit[a] of truth and the spirit of falsehood.