Some things that have been bothering me

[pianistclare]

The rejecting the gift thread was strange. I would not call it creepy, but the main point of the OP (original poster) seemed bent to me. **

What seemed even more bent is the stubborn unwillingness to accept any other point of view.

**

That’s a real hallmark of CAF.
Most who ask for advice really don’t want it. They want someone outside of their peer group to affirm their “already made” decision. That’s why we get all those conditional first posts:
“I’m not here to debate, I don’t want opinions…” etc.

But they do want opinions.


Actually quite frustrating.
:compcoff:

But, I digress.

 

[guanophore]

Why do you think it is inappropriate for a doctor to be concerned about a patient’s psychological welfare?

You better believe that people like primary care givers and OB/GYNs have to have some expertise in depression–depression is extremely prevalent.

Also, a student health center doctor has to think about depression because college students are a particularly vulnerable population. I was just looking up some stats and here’s what I found:

"1 out of every 4 college students suffers from some form of mental illness, including depression
"44 percent of American college students report having symptoms of depression
"75 percent of college students do not seek help for mental health problems
suicide is the third leading cause of death among college students
young people diagnosed with depression are five times more likely to attempt suicide than adults
"19 percent of young people in the United States either contemplate or attempt suicide every year
“4 out of every 5 college students who either contemplate or attempt suicide show clear warning signs”

healthline.com/health/depression/college-students

Which is not to say that any of these apply to you, OP, but it supports the practice of screening.

Every contact a potentially at risk person has with the healthcare system, whether it is a booth at the fair, a clinic visit, ER or anywhere, is an opportunity to ask these questions.

Perhaps this experience is God’s way of getting you to look at your prejudices around psychological needs and services?

 

[guanophore]

Sometimes learning coping skills IS the fix.

Not every problem that we encounter comes from a system outside of us. Sometimes, it really is how WE react to the world that is causing us difficulty.

People who grow up well adjusted sometimes don’t even realize that they have coping skills others do not.

You post made me think of one of my favorite verses:

“For as (a person) thinketh in his heart, so is he” . Proverbs 23:7

How we perceive things, ourselves, our environment, others, God, is largely what governs how respond to them. Failure to examine the lenses we are using is a disservice to our own growth.

It is also why the Apostle enjoins us
“And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.” Romans 12:2

As the OP has pointed out, all of us have, to some extent, become contaminated by original sin, from the world or from within ourselves. Redbetta, how will you know if your thinking needs to be transformed?

  Sometimes WE need a little outside perspective to help us see how WE can do things that will effect change.

I think this is one of the ways the HS guides us. When things provoke us, it is a calling for inner as well as outer transformation.

Counseling isn't the answer to everything, but it isn't necessarily a copout either.

And there is a difference between adjustment counseling, which is what most college students need at one point or another, and therapeutic intervention for chronic mental illnesses. They are as different as vaccinating against a disease and long term treatment of chronic obstructive pulmonary disease. Conflating them together fails to appreciate the differences.

 

[redbetta]

Which is not to say that any of these apply to you, OP, but it supports the practice of screening.

Every contact a potentially at risk person has with the healthcare system, whether it is a booth at the fair, a clinic visit, ER or anywhere, is an opportunity to ask these questions.

Perhaps this experience is God’s way of getting you to look at your prejudices around psychological needs and services?

I have good reasons to be skeptical. The social sciences are like dieting. You have to sort out through all sorts of misinformation and outright garbage to get to actual science.

To the person who says that as a doctor, I would need to screen for clinical depression. I am planning on becoming a radiologist. Psycologists and psychiatrists screen for depression. And, I am in no way ever going to suggest that a patient seeks counseling just because they are having a hard time because a hard time because it is likely not necessary and it is not my business to deal with something non-physiological. I have had other doctors refer me to specialists in a particular body part, but, they have never before refered me to counselors. Not even my family physician who knows a lot about us over the years.

 

[guanophore]

I have good reasons to be skeptical. The social sciences are like dieting. You have to sort out through all sorts of misinformation and outright garbage to get to actual science.

Yes, social sciences, as a human science, are “soft”, unlike other areas of science which are more grounded in the tangible. Psychology comes from the Greek word psyxḗ (from psyxō, “to breathe, blow” and us translated “soul”. You nailed it that soul is very difficult to measure and define.

It is very important to sort through all the outright garbage. Screening during office visits, though, has been scientifically validated as an effective method (that is why docs are now required to do it).

To the person who says that as a doctor, I would need to screen for clinical depression. I am planning on becoming a radiologist.

First you will have the same basic preparation as all medical students, who are now being trained in the SBIRT model. You will have to apply this during your internship while in medical school. As a radiologist you may encounter plenty of patients with conditions that contribute to psychological stress. Why exclude yourself as a source of help and comfort to them?

Psycologists and psychiatrists screen for depression.

On the contrary, it is first point contacts such as the providers in the general health clinic that screen. Mental Health professionals get folks at the back end, after the screening, and are responsible for doing an extensive assessment and diagnosis for more intensive treatment. All providers are trained in screening because it does not require advanced skills in these areas. This is also true for suicide prevention.

And, I am in no way ever going to suggest that a patient seeks counseling just because they are having a hard time because a hard time because it is likely not necessary and it is not my business to deal with something non-physiological.

I will pray for you, Redbetta, that God will open your mind and heart to understand what treating the whole person means.

Suggesting alternatives to people does not obligate them to follow it, and it is not the place of the screener to decide if it is “necessary”. That right belongs to the patient. It is the providers job to make the patient aware of alternatives and opportunities.

I have had other doctors refer me to specialists in a particular body part, but, they have never before refered me to counselors. Not even my family physician who knows a lot about us over the years.

One has to wonder why this particular one is so offensive to you…

 

[LongingSoul]

Well, except that the OP is talking about a setting where professional relationships with members of both sexes is de rigueur. In the sciences, it is hardly possible to screen your study groups by gender. It is simply not done. Of course she’s going to have male friends. If she becomes a physician, her spouse is going to have to be able to cope with that. That’s just a fact of life.

When the OP randomly brought the issue of male/female friendship into the thread in #8, it was in the same sentence as she referred to the thread where the older male had given the teenage girls tops as a present. It didn’t seem to be related to any of the other points of the thread but rather an issue connected with that thread. And I wasn’t saying men and women can’t be friends, I was adding to the warning you had made about the sexual dynamic specific to male/female friendships… especially after marriage.

 

[Beryllos]

… I am in no way ever going to suggest that a patient seeks counseling just because they are having a hard time …] because it is likely not necessary and it is not my business to deal with something non-physiological.

There are several reasons you should reconsider that. The patients you will be dealing with are not just bodies that need healing. A patient is an integrated package that includes body, mind, and soul. The mind affects the body at many levels: Stress and anxiety may induce endocrine and other physical responses which affect the health. Risky attitudes may lead to injury, infection, or addiction. Abusive relationships may lead to injury. If you limit yourself to healing the body, you are not doing all you can do to promote the health of the body.

Even as a radiologist, you are likely to have to deal with the whole person. For example, you might encounter specific types of bone fractures that could only happen by physical abuse of a child. Are you going to just patch up the bones and leave it to other professionals to address the cause and protect the child? You might think “What can I do? This is not in my area of expertise.” But there probably are ways you can help, like comforting the child, observing child-parent interactions, and talking to the child and/or parent. Maybe all you can do is assess the family situation and report it, or perhaps you will be able to help at a more personal level. Don’t limit yourself.

As for patients who are under normal stress due to school, jobs, relationships, etc., you can still inquire and remind the patient that there are methods and resources for dealing with it. They can take it or leave it, they won’t mind you asking, and they might even feel better knowing you care.

 

[Xantippe]

There are several reasons you should reconsider that. The patients you will be dealing with are not just bodies that need healing. A patient is an integrated package that includes body, mind, and soul. The mind affects the body at many levels: Stress and anxiety may induce endocrine and other physical responses which affect the health. Risky attitudes may lead to injury, infection, or addiction. Abusive relationships may lead to injury. If you limit yourself to healing the body, you are not doing all you can do to promote the health of the body.

Even as a radiologist, you are likely to have to deal with the whole person. For example, you might encounter specific types of bone fractures that could only happen by physical abuse of a child. Are you going to just patch up the bones and leave it to other professionals to address the cause and protect the child? You might think “What can I do? This is not in my area of expertise.” But there probably are ways you can help, like comforting the child, observing child-parent interactions, and talking to the child and/or parent. Maybe all you can do is assess the family situation and report it, or perhaps you will be able to help at a more personal level. Don’t limit yourself.

As for patients who are under normal stress due to school, jobs, relationships, etc., you can still inquire and remind the patient that there are methods and resources for dealing with it. They can take it or leave it, they won’t mind you asking, and they might even feel better knowing you care.

Yeah.

People don’t want doctors that see them just as bags of bones and organs.

 

[EasterJoy]

I have good reasons to be skeptical. The social sciences are like dieting. You have to sort out through all sorts of misinformation and outright garbage to get to actual science.

To the person who says that as a doctor, I would need to screen for clinical depression. I am planning on becoming a radiologist. Psycologists and psychiatrists screen for depression. And, I am in no way ever going to suggest that a patient seeks counseling just because they are having a hard time because a hard time because it is likely not necessary and it is not my business to deal with something non-physiological. I have had other doctors refer me to specialists in a particular body part, but, they have never before refered me to counselors. Not even my family physician who knows a lot about us over the years.

Radiologists don’t touch patients as much as other physicians, but you will find that you will not be free to set your standards of medical care on your own.

You are wrong about who is going to be expected to screen for depression:
“All primary care doctors, including pediatricians and family physicians, should screen adolescents routinely for depression, new recommendations of the U.S. Preventive Services Task Force said, and those doctors should have a system in place to connect young people to treatment for depression if they need it…The new recommendations for screening adolescents “very much parallel the recommendations for adults (18 and older),” said Dr. Alex H. Krist, associate professor of family medicine at Virginia Commonwealth University and member of the Task Force that wrote the recommendations, which came out on Monday in the Annals of Internal Medicine.”
cnn.com/2016/02/08/health/teen-depression-screening/index.html

The number one serious threat to the health of people in your age group and setting are psychological issues such as stress, anxiety, and depression, along with behavioral issues such as drug and alcohol abuse and sexual promiscuity. Those “non-physical” threats have an alarming amount of morbidity and even mortality associated with them. That epidemiology is going to influence the kind of conversations that university health center physicians have with their patients.

What really amazes me is how much you resent having a physician just do her job. You are free to refuse care. You are free to refuse referrals. You are free to tell the whole world to go to h$#L with the audacious suggestion that someone just might be able to teach you something about how to be both happier and more successful as a college student adapting to the realities of pursuing a competitive-entry profession, instead of grandly offering to change the college experience and the whole system of medical education itself to suit you.

You may not like that psychology has insinuated itself into your life, but I would suggest you get used to it. It is a required topic in the military, in professional sports, in business, and in health care. Why? Because it has proven to be so useful in helping people to achieve excellence consistently and in a way they find rewarding and enjoyable. Maybe there is a lot of garbage in it still, but it has served up enough product that works that the long arm of psychology is going nowhere.

 

[Lou2U]

Yeah.

People don’t want doctors that see them just as bags of bones and organs.

Definitely. IMO, not asking me how I am feeling would probably make me feel as though they didn’t really care, and I was just a problem to be fixed.

OP - why did you have such a problem with being asked how you were? It sounds as though right now, you’re very disillusioned with the world around you which could be why you feel cynical about the motive. But if you went to the doctor’s and told them you weren’t happy, they would take some time to ask you why. Sometimes, problems such as aches and pains can be caused by a emotional or psychological issue.

Lou

 

[redbetta]

There are several reasons you should reconsider that. The patients you will be dealing with are not just bodies that need healing. A patient is an integrated package that includes body, mind, and soul. The mind affects the body at many levels: Stress and anxiety may induce endocrine and other physical responses which affect the health. Risky attitudes may lead to injury, infection, or addiction. Abusive relationships may lead to injury. If you limit yourself to healing the body, you are not doing all you can do to promote the health of the body.

Even as a radiologist, you are likely to have to deal with the whole person. For example, you might encounter specific types of bone fractures that could only happen by physical abuse of a child. Are you going to just patch up the bones and leave it to other professionals to address the cause and protect the child? You might think “What can I do? This is not in my area of expertise.” But there probably are ways you can help, like comforting the child, observing child-parent interactions, and talking to the child and/or parent. Maybe all you can do is assess the family situation and report it, or perhaps you will be able to help at a more personal level. Don’t limit yourself.

As for patients who are under normal stress due to school, jobs, relationships, etc., you can still inquire and remind the patient that there are methods and resources for dealing with it. They can take it or leave it, they won’t mind you asking, and they might even feel better knowing you care.

I would definitely report signs of abuse. I am not some callous monster. I just won’t recommend counselors every time someone breaks a nail like people do where I’m at. Also, I could only dedicate so much time to one patient before I need to move on. I am just going to address what it is in my position to address and that is it.

 

[redbetta]

Definitely. IMO, not asking me how I am feeling would probably make me feel as though they didn’t really care, and I was just a problem to be fixed.

OP - why did you have such a problem with being asked how you were? It sounds as though right now, you’re very disillusioned with the world around you which could be why you feel cynical about the motive. But if you went to the doctor’s and told them you weren’t happy, they would take some time to ask you why. Sometimes, problems such as aches and pains can be caused by a emotional or psychological issue.

Lou

I did not so much have a problem with the doctor asking how I like it at campus as I did with the recommendation for psychological services attached to a culture test. In my opinion, it was non of her business and I will tell her that the next time I see her.

 

[Lou2U]

I did not so much have a problem with the doctor asking how I like it at campus as I did with the recommendation for psychological services attached to a culture test. In my opinion, it was non of her business and I will tell her that the next time I see her.

Why is it none of her business? Stress rates at universities are likely to be high, and there is nothing wrong with suggesting you talk to someone if you feel as though all you do is work. It can also indicate depression, which, as others have said, doctors have to be on the alert for. If it was just a recommendation, you are free to take it or leave it. I don’t think she meant to pry, but getting a sense of your mental well-being can help you and her in the long term.

Lou

 

[Xantippe]

I did not so much have a problem with the doctor asking how I like it at campus as I did with the recommendation for psychological services attached to a culture test. In my opinion, it was non of her business and I will tell her that the next time I see her.

Years ago, I had mono (also a throat thing). As I had been warned by a professor, the mono made me really SAD.

I don’t think the physical and the psychological can be separated as cleanly as you think they can.

 

[redbetta]

I am going to leave this thread alone for a few days because I just gotten on the rag along with being busy and still fighting an infection. Also, right before a thread dies, sometimes people try to get cheeky or sarcastic to punctuate the mark.

 

[PhiloMed]

I am going to leave this thread alone for a few days because I just gotten on the rag along with being busy and still fighting an infection. Also, right before a thread dies, sometimes people try to get cheeky or sarcastic to punctuate the mark.

I think you should re-evaluate your calling in life.

 

[pianistclare]

I am going to leave this thread alone for a few days because I just gotten on the rag along with being busy and still fighting an infection. Also, right before a thread dies, sometimes people try to get cheeky or sarcastic to punctuate the mark.

oh goodness.
unsubscribing.
freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-forum/tmi.gif

 

[LongingSoul]

Ah ha. I see. This was one long exercise in trolling and you’ve done it before enough to even have an end game strategy. Throw in something to shock and then describe the reaction you get so that even then you feel like you’ve controlled the outcome.

I think I know why psychology is kryptonite to you…

 

[Ridgerunner]

Continued:

I swear, whenever there is a problem with a system, those in charge would rather teach the people within the system to suck it up or cope rather than change the system and solve those problems all together. Would it take more time and money? Indubitably. But, in my humble opinion, it is better to nip the problem at the bud rather than to shoot smaller issues when they occur.

Finally, what am I to conclude from all of my ponderings above about the various mysteries of life? That life is all bureaucracy? Maybe that is it. Because, everywhere I go, all I find is bureaucracy, bureaucracy, and more bureaucracy. They said that things get better in college as the more incompetent representatives of society are weeded out. But, it is all just the same even if the students themselves are less annoying (no more bathroom jokes).

Too bad redbetta left, but maybe she’ll take a peek later.

I found this whole presentation amusing because, in some ways, I would have identified with her in school. One has to realize that those who have control over our lives are almost NEVER our friends. Their purpose is to pursue their own ambitions through teaching or whatever it is that they’re doing.

I was always impatient with students who would declare fondness for “good old Professor X”. “What are you thinking? I would sometimes ask. His job is to weed you out of here if he doesn’t think you meet his standards. He’s not your friend.”

I didn’t exactly think of them as enemies, fully, but as persons, part of whose function is to do me harm (from my perspective) to be overcome. “You think I can’t make it” my internal dialogue would go “I’ll show you I can, and no, I won’t start a drive to put a statue of you on campus.”

In business, it’s the same. One can be cordial, even friendly, with those with whom one does business, but that person is always asking himself whether someone else would do a better or cheaper job than me. So it’s not a matter of being enemies, but it’s not a matter of friendship, either.

I think a lot of the time we expect better of people than they’re going to deliver, and we can be disappointed in them and in life if we don’t realize every last second of life is a struggle.

As a pre-med student, Redbetta, you surely realize there are no “castles” when it comes to human health. It’s all just a swirling cavalry battle out on some Eurasian steppe. Sometimes the Polish knights win, and sometimes the Mongols win. Your body fights every moment to sustain your life. Bacteria, molds, viruses abound, and are constantly on the attack. Your immune system fights them every waking and sleeping hour. If it didn’t, you would quickly succumb. Life is like that in other ways too.

Call me cynical if you wish, but that’s what life is. Don’t make the mistake of expecting too much of it. But neither make the mistake of thinking you can’t make it a joyous battle. You can.

 

[EasterJoy]

I would definitely report signs of abuse. I am not some callous monster. I just won’t recommend counselors every time someone breaks a nail like people do where I’m at. Also, I could only dedicate so much time to one patient before I need to move on. I am just going to address what it is in my position to address and that is it.

You may want to get into bus driver school and learn to drive the bus before you get quite so adamant with the back-seat driving. This is particularly something you might want to remember when you’re around the people who will be deciding whether or not you get to go to bus driver school. Radiologists are not exempt from the need to exhibit some degree of professional respect.