Some thoughts on Homosexuality

[Krislavis]

Just as a quick background, I am in the midst of conversion (hoping to join the Church next Easter) and so I have been looking at points that people have criticized the Church on in the past to try and get a better understanding of where I stand myself on such issues and why.

To start, I have read and reasoned enough at this point to say that I do feel now (I held a different view in the past) that homosexual unions or “gay marriage” is wrong and I can clearly see objectively why the Church holds that view. I guess the only hesitance or sadness that I feel with this change in view is that, while I can see all the negative things that have occurred with the acceptance of homosexuality (acceptance of sterile unions oriented towards mutual use and pleasure, people who may not be homosexual questioning that they could be same-sex attracted etc), I also see some of the positive as well.

The positive that I do see is that those who are truly same-sex attracted no longer feel trapped and haunted by that part of their lives. More people are able to see them for other traits that they have instead of just the fact that they are “gay”. I have seen this in a few of my friends who are gay. Once they came out they really seemed to open up more and reveal much more of who they are as a person. These were good traits that because they felt more at ease around us and around people in general they allowed themselves to show instead of just being too worried about whether or not they would be accepted because they are gay.

While I see why the Church holds the views they do, I also see that there are some people who don’t also uphold the second part of the Churches teaching where you are still to treat those with homosexual leanings with respect and dignity.

I guess my question for you all then is, how do we solve this issue so that those who are homosexual feel at ease or comfortable with who they are, and people who uphold the churches teachings also feel comfortable treating those people as they would others and not making them feel ostracized due to sexual orientation (but still not accepting sin as acceptable)?

 

[Strydersroom]

Just as a quick background, I am in the midst of conversion (hoping to join the Church next Easter) and so I have been looking at points that people have criticized the Church on in the past to try and get a better understanding of where I stand myself on such issues and why.

To start, I have read and reasoned enough at this point to say that I do feel now (I held a different view in the past) that homosexual unions or “gay marriage” is wrong and I can clearly see objectively why the Church holds that view. I guess the only hesitance or sadness that I feel with this change in view is that, while I can see all the negative things that have occurred with the acceptance of homosexuality (acceptance of sterile unions oriented towards mutual use and pleasure, people who may not be homosexual questioning that they could be same-sex attracted etc), I also see some of the positive as well.

The positive that I do see is that those who are truly same-sex attracted no longer feel trapped and haunted by that part of their lives. More people are able to see them for other traits that they have instead of just the fact that they are “gay”. I have seen this in a few of my friends who are gay. Once they came out they really seemed to open up more and reveal much more of who they are as a person. These were good traits that because they felt more at ease around us and around people in general they allowed themselves to show instead of just being too worried about whether or not they would be accepted because they are gay.

While I see why the Church holds the views they do, I also see that there are some people who don’t also uphold the second part of the Churches teaching where you are still to treat those with homosexual leanings with respect and dignity.

I guess my question for you all then is, how do we solve this issue so that those who are homosexual feel at ease or comfortable with who they are, and people who uphold the churches teachings also feel comfortable treating those people as they would others and not making them feel ostracized due to sexual orientation (but still not accepting sin as acceptable)?

What changed your view to believe homosexual unions are wrong and what “negative things” that have occurred in your opinion?

 

[Krislavis]

What changed your view to believe homosexual unions are wrong and what “negative things” that have occurred in your opinion?

I started really studying Natural Law and using reason to discern truth. Part of that reasoning was by questioning what marriage is for and why couldn’t gay people be considered married, which lead to realizing that according to natural law there is an end purpose to everything and this is what organizes the world and helps us to discern what is morally right and wrong. If everything does have an end purpose and for marriage that purpose is sexual union (one flesh) and the fruit that can be born out of that union and that is what keeps us from using that one union as mutual use, then unions that are sterile by nature cannot be oriented towards that end purpose.

Hope that was worded so it makes sense.

 

[Krislavis]

The negative things would be what I listed already:

the acceptance of homosexuality (acceptance of sterile unions oriented towards mutual use and pleasure, people who may not be homosexual questioning that they could be same-sex attracted etc),

And also the bullying and mistreatment of those who are gay.

 

[Strydersroom]

I started really studying Natural Law and using reason to discern truth. Part of that reasoning was by questioning what marriage is for and why couldn’t gay people be considered married, which lead to realizing that according to natural law there is an end purpose to everything and this is what organizes the world and helps us to discern what is morally right and wrong. If everything does have an end purpose and for marriage that purpose is sexual union (one flesh) and the fruit that can be born out of that union and that is what keeps us from using that one union as mutual use, then unions that are sterile by nature cannot be oriented towards that end purpose.

Hope that was worded so it makes sense.

There is not just one purpose people get married, but actually quite a lot of different ones.

 

[Krislavis]

There is not just one purpose people get married, but actually quite a lot of different ones.

You misunderstand, I am not saying there is just one purpose that people get married, but rather there is one purpose for marriage (for the institution of marriage itself, in a sense what marriage was created for).

If you want to have a better understanding of this you can read the book “What is Marriage” as well as the Christopher West book “Good News about Sex and Marriage”.

Like I said, I once felt that people could define what marriage is on there own (and therefore why not have gay marriage) but through questioning what Natural Law is and therefore what defines morality, I have concluded through logic and reason that the purpose of marriage can only be a natural one flesh union.

When people cannot engage in sex as a marital union then the act is subverted for pleasure and mutual use. This happens with sexual acts of the same sex as well as sex between a male and female when they use contraception. This perverts the act so that the focus is only on the pleasure one gets out of it and shifts the focus away from what the end purpose of the act is which is children (or the possibility of them). This can lead to (for example) a husband telling his wife they don’t have sex enough which then turns off the wife and makes her not want to have sex because he is basically saying why don’t you pleasure me enough. The wife then feels used and not wanted for her partnership and love but rather just there so he can have another orgasm.

Also if one of the purposes of marriage you refer to in your “purposes for getting married” is for emotional support and love then why not allow polygamous unions or marriage between brother and sister or marriage between a dog and his owner (while it sounds ridiculous and extreme…they both love each other after all). The point is if it is an emotional attachment that is the end purpose of marriage then you must also say that marriage can include all of the above unions.

If you hold an opposite view and want to go back and forth on this subject then I suggest you write out why you feel as you do. If by asking your questions however, you wish to be convinced then I suggest you read the above mentioned books.

 

[Dorothy]

The negative things would be what I listed already:

the acceptance of homosexuality (acceptance of sterile unions oriented towards mutual use and pleasure, people who may not be homosexual questioning that they could be same-sex attracted etc),

And also the bullying and mistreatment of those who are gay.

I personally have not met any of my Catholic friends and acquaintances that bully gay people.

I also have met two Catholic people who were living the gay lifestyle, and then left that lifestyle to become chaste, practicing Catholics. It is a prayerful lifestyle, and use of the sacraments given to us by our Lord Jesus Christ that enables them to do so.

Which, of course, is the same for anyone, regardless of what type of sin, who chooses to follow and obey the Lord. Our strength comes from the Lord.

 

[Krislavis]

I personally have not met any of my Catholic friends and acquaintances that bully gay people.

I also have met two Catholic people who were living the gay lifestyle, and then left that lifestyle to become chaste, practicing Catholics. It is a prayerful lifestyle, and use of the sacraments given to us by our Lord Jesus Christ that enables them to do so.

Which, of course, is the same for anyone, regardless of what type of sin, who chooses to follow and obey the Lord. Our strength comes from the Lord.

I was not trying to say that Catholics do bully gay people, but rather it seems that the discouragement of the whole LGBT movement can easily be seen by outsiders (who may not hold the same religious beliefs or hold no religious beliefs) as a reason to ostracize them for their sins. This may not be intentionally but never the less it still happens. And while homosexual acts are just as sinful (grave matter) as birth control, one is more publicly accepted and not as obvious as the other (so therefore less likely to be publicly judged on).

I will say from what you said Dorothy that does not seem to be the case with those you know (which is AWESOME) but I do wonder if you asked your friends about coming out or letting people know they are gay and faithfully practicing Catholics if they ever have any apprehension about it? Is or was that a difficult thing for them and do they feel people judge them based on it? If not then maybe the world truly is changing and that would be a great thing.

 

[redbetta]

Just as a quick background, I am in the midst of conversion (hoping to join the Church next Easter) and so I have been looking at points that people have criticized the Church on in the past to try and get a better understanding of where I stand myself on such issues and why.

To start, I have read and reasoned enough at this point to say that I do feel now (I held a different view in the past) that homosexual unions or “gay marriage” is wrong and I can clearly see objectively why the Church holds that view. I guess the only hesitance or sadness that I feel with this change in view is that, while I can see all the negative things that have occurred with the acceptance of homosexuality (acceptance of sterile unions oriented towards mutual use and pleasure, people who may not be homosexual questioning that they could be same-sex attracted etc), I also see some of the positive as well.

The positive that I do see is that those who are truly same-sex attracted no longer feel trapped and haunted by that part of their lives. More people are able to see them for other traits that they have instead of just the fact that they are “gay”. I have seen this in a few of my friends who are gay. Once they came out they really seemed to open up more and reveal much more of who they are as a person. These were good traits that because they felt more at ease around us and around people in general they allowed themselves to show instead of just being too worried about whether or not they would be accepted because they are gay.

While I see why the Church holds the views they do, I also see that there are some people who don’t also uphold the second part of the Churches teaching where you are still to treat those with homosexual leanings with respect and dignity.

I guess my question for you all then is, how do we solve this issue so that those who are homosexual feel at ease or comfortable with who they are, and people who uphold the churches teachings also feel comfortable treating those people as they would others and not making them feel ostracized due to sexual orientation (but still not accepting sin as acceptable)?

When people talk about homosexuality, it bothers me and a lot of Catholics that having SSA is accepted as an identity when really, everybody is more than their sexual attractions. I would accept a person with SSA for who they are, but, they are not their sexual orientation. I don’t know, I would say that people with SSA need to be able to talk about it with others and have their support as anyone should be able to have support with their cross because, hey, if it wasn’t SSA, it would have been something else.

Often, it seems that Catholics or other Christians may seem unfriendly with people with SSA because, with all the attention homosexuality gets in the culture, by acknowledging it and addressing it, they would be only feeding the beast. I guess the trick is to talk about these attractions enough so that the fear does not hold one back from accomplishing what one needs to in life, but, not giving it so much attention that is swallows up one’s whole person. Many people fear contributing to that latter consequence.

Anyway, I hope that made sense. I normally won’t touch this topic with a forty foot pole on CAF considering how quickly the threads tend to go up in flames. But, my best friend is a devout Catholic living with some SSA and we talk about these issues a lot.

 

[Dorothy]

I was not trying to say that Catholics do bully gay people, but rather it seems that the discouragement of the whole LGBT movement can easily be seen by outsiders (who may not hold the same religious beliefs or hold no religious beliefs) as a reason to ostracize them for their sins. This may not be intentionally but never the less it still happens. And while homosexual acts are just as sinful (grave matter) as birth control, one is more publicly accepted and not as obvious as the other (so therefore less likely to be publicly judged on).

I will say from what you said Dorothy that does not seem to be the case with those you know (which is AWESOME) but I do wonder if you asked your friends about coming out or letting people know they are gay and faithfully practicing Catholics if they ever have any apprehension about it? Is or was that a difficult thing for them and do they feel people judge them based on it? If not then maybe the world truly is changing and that would be a great thing.

I do know that the two I mentioned are in the minority. Perhaps if more like them would give their testimonies, it would be encouraging to others.

There is an organization called Courage, that has the backing of the Church, and they avail themselves to counsel and give guidance to homosexuals.

 

[Krislavis]

When people talk about homosexuality, it bothers me and a lot of Catholics that having SSA is accepted as an identity when really, everybody is more than their sexual attractions. I would accept a person with SSA for who they are, but, they are not their sexual orientation. I don’t know, I would say that people with SSA need to be able to talk about it with others and have their support as anyone should be able to have support with their cross because, hey, if it wasn’t SSA, it would have been something else.

Often, it seems that Catholics or other Christians may seem unfriendly with people with SSA because, with all the attention homosexuality gets in the culture, by acknowledging it and addressing it, they would be only feeding the beast. I guess the trick is to talk about these attractions enough so that the fear does not hold one back from accomplishing what one needs to in life, but, not giving it so much attention that is swallows up one’s whole person. Many people fear contributing to that latter consequence.

Anyway, I hope that made sense. I normally won’t touch this topic with a forty foot pole on CAF considering how quickly the threads tend to go up in flames. But, my best friend is a devout Catholic living with some SSA and we talk about these issues a lot.

Redbetta,

Thanks for your feedback. It was well put and pretty much what I was trying to get at. I too wish the conversation could be more open and accepting without someone assuming that the other is being discriminatory or labeled as pridefully sinful (labeled and not considered for who they are on the whole) as we all are living with some sort of cross.

 

[redbetta]

Redbetta,

Thanks for your feedback. It was well put and pretty much what I was trying to get at. I too wish the conversation could be more open and accepting without someone assuming that the other is being discriminatory or labeled as pridefully sinful (labeled and not considered for who they are on the whole) as we all are living with some sort of cross.

Ever looked at the Courage Apostalate website? I don’t have SSA, I love reading the site and listening to some prominent members on Catholic Answers radio because they do a very good job at walking that fine line. Very informative and encompassing of the Catholic worldview.

 

[AgnosticBoy]

Just as a quick background, I am in the midst of conversion (hoping to join the Church next Easter) and so I have been looking at points that people have criticized the Church on in the past to try and get a better understanding of where I stand myself on such issues and why.

To start, I have read and reasoned enough at this point to say that I do feel now (I held a different view in the past) that homosexual unions or “gay marriage” is wrong and I can clearly see objectively why the Church holds that view. I guess the only hesitance or sadness that I feel with this change in view is that, while I can see all the negative things that have occurred with the acceptance of homosexuality (acceptance of sterile unions oriented towards mutual use and pleasure, people who may not be homosexual questioning that they could be same-sex attracted etc), I also see some of the positive as well.

The positive that I do see is that those who are truly same-sex attracted no longer feel trapped and haunted by that part of their lives. More people are able to see them for other traits that they have instead of just the fact that they are “gay”. I have seen this in a few of my friends who are gay. Once they came out they really seemed to open up more and reveal much more of who they are as a person. These were good traits that because they felt more at ease around us and around people in general they allowed themselves to show instead of just being too worried about whether or not they would be accepted because they are gay.

While I see why the Church holds the views they do, I also see that there are some people who don’t also uphold the second part of the Churches teaching where you are still to treat those with homosexual leanings with respect and dignity.

I guess my question for you all then is, how do we solve this issue so that those who are homosexual feel at ease or comfortable with who they are, and people who uphold the churches teachings also feel comfortable treating those people as they would others and not making them feel ostracized due to sexual orientation (but still not accepting sin as acceptable)?

I agree with most of your points because the Church should treat homosexuals the same way they would treat fornicators which is even more prevalent problem than homosexuality.

My thoughts are that the homosexual crowd and advocacy groups need to do some work as well because often they push their lifestyle onto others. Usually, if you say anything that disagrees with their lifestyle then you’re automatically labelled a bigot which is also an attempt silence the opposition. I’m not even a Christian, and I tend to get annoyed by the gays crowds who try to label people as bigots just for disagreeing with the lifestyle.

I also support people who are in or want to have adult consensual polygamous relationships, so maybe down the line we’ll need to have this discussion.

 

[Rau]

There is not just one purpose people get married, but actually quite a lot of different ones.

Marriage is a sexual Union, and the fruits of that union are bound together. Why do men emit gametes when they ejaculate? The nature of the sexual act, it’s proper venue, seems clear.