Some thoughts on returning to the Church

[sambos671]

I Don’t know if there will be any intersting debates on this thread if it takes off or not. But I want to flush out some things and am curious what others will think or say. There are some topics I’d like to cover. I’ve just recently returned to the Catholic Church after many years as a protestant and some I’m having difficulty and would like to share some of them. Primarily to bolster my faith. Many Catholics will not understand what I mean when I say the Church is primarily a Covenant Theology type system with regard to baptism.

Protestants generally fall into two catagories when speaking of Theology. Coventant theology and dispensationalist. Dispensationalist are where most fundalmentalist fall. No matter how moral a church that holds a Covenant view of theology is; the dispensationalist will call them liberals. I find that funny since Covenant Theology came first and therefore is the more conservative view. Anyway the point is baptism. Catholics believe that Baptism is entry into the faith and that it provides for the remission of sins and clears the soul of that person. That person is then entered into the Family of God. Many protestants don’t have a sacramental view of baptism rather its an ordenance of symbolism. What is sacramental (well, as close as you can get to the Catholic view ) in many Protestant beliefs is the consept of being “born again”. Ie you pray for Jesus to come into your heart(“the sinners prayer”) and he does and you become a new creature. I have seen many protestant conversion stories and they are very emotional and many talked about this feeling or that they cried. I never had that kind of emotional experience. I just knew I wanted Jesus. I now wonder if I hadn’t had him all along (since I had been baptised a Catholic) and just did what I was supposed to do as a Catholic. Maybe, I was already in the covenant church that Jesus established an my soul somehow knew it. Its a thought. However, to be fair my life did change for the better after that.

My next point has to do with orthodoxy. Not the Orthodox Church but right way of belief. Protestants generally (though not all) believe that their is an invisible world wide Church of “real christians”. I can see the argument for that but I think it was Jerome who said something to the effect that the Old Testiment is revealed in the New and the New is confirmed in the Old. Well, I’ve been considering these verses with my thoughts on the Catholic Church. The bolded areas are mine

Now Abel kept flocks, and Cain worked the soil. 3 In the course of time Cain brought some of the fruits of the soil as an offering to the LORD. 4 But Abel brought fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock. The LORD looked with favor on Abel and his offering, 5 but on Cain and his offering he did not look with favor. So Cain was very angry, and his face was downcast.
6 Then the LORD said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? 7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it.”

• Gen 4:6-7

Obviously Cain made the mistake of not sacrificing right or the right way.

So the Reubenites, the Gadites and the half-tribe of Manasseh left the Israelites at Shiloh in Canaan to return to Gilead, their own land, which they had acquired in accordance with the command of the LORD through Moses.
10 When they came to Geliloth near the Jordan in the land of Canaan, the Reubenites, the Gadites and the half-tribe of Manasseh built an imposing altar there by the Jordan. 11 And when the Israelites heard that they had built the altar on the border of Canaan at Geliloth near the Jordan on the Israelite side, 12 the whole assembly of Israel gathered at Shiloh to go to war against them. - Joshua 22:9-12

The Israelites were about to have a civil war because the tribes on the other side of the Jordan were perceved as going against how Moses’ (and by default God) order them to worship. They said it was a memorial that it wasn’t goint to replace the alter of God and war was adverted. But obvioulsy if they were not going to worship right it was enought for war.

[QUOTE2] The people, however, were still sacrificing at the high places, because a temple had not yet been built for the Name of the LORD. 3 Solomon showed his love for the LORD by walking according to the statutes of his father David, except that he offered sacrifices and burned incense on the high places. -1 kings 3:2-3
Solomon pleased God except that he worshiped in the popular way but not the way that was perscribed. He offered sacrifices outside the Tabernacle. So it seems just in these verses how important that things were done properly. Which is why many protestants have problems with Catholics because of “all the rules” But we see how it plays out in the OT. So now what about the Eucharist? If Jesus did indeed say this

26While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.” 27Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you. 28This is my blood of the** covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.
** Then to deny it would be problematic especially when you review the OT passages I quoted. These are just some of the things I’m thinking about now recently returning to the Church and wonder at what both Catholics and Protestants have to say. BTW my first communion after returning to the Church was emotional. I felt extremely honored to receive Christ in this special way.

 

[tundramom]

I am so excited to read more of your posts.

I came out of Mormonism into the Assembly of God and catipulted Home to Rome in 1999 and fully in my heart in 2003.

I say catipulted because I knew God was calling me to Him in the Catholic church but my friends in the A/G were so important to me and I enjoyed the praise and worship music so much that I tried to straddle the two.

I finally prayed that dangerous prayer. “Lord, you are going to have to hit me over the head with a 2X4 and let me know if you want me Catholic”.

Well… long story short, He did. I don’t recommend praying that prayer unless you are completely ready for the consequences.

Praise God that He led me to full and joyous (and a bit less loud) worship with Him.

in Christ
Steph

 

[JonNC]

I Don’t know if there will be any intersting debates on this thread if it takes off or not. But I want to flush out some things and am curious what others will think or say. There are some topics I’d like to cover. I’ve just recently returned to the Catholic Church after many years as a protestant and some I’m having difficulty and would like to share some of them. Primarily to bolster my faith. Many Catholics will not understand what I mean when I say the Church is primarily a Covenant Theology type system with regard to baptism.

Sambos,
I’ll leave dsicussion/debate to another time. For now, congratulations on your decision, and may the Holy Spirit bless you continuously in Word and Sacrament.

Jon

 

[sambos671]

Thanks JohnNC and Tundramom. I’m glad to be back now that I have a better appreciatiion for the Magesterium of the Church. You know going to Confession and receiveing the Eucharist have both been a great and wonderful thing. As a protestant I prayed for forgiveness and help with sinful issues directly to God. However, it wasn’t long before they became issues again and the cycle would repeat itself… As a Catholic going to Confession not only is their a great sence of forgiveness but just as importantly I’ve been able to actually keep these same issues at bay and seem to have changed my thought processes about them. I’m more at peace. Part of the help with defeating the sin is that confession forces me to have (what protestants would call) an accountability partner. Like I mentioned before receive the Eucharist gave me a great sence of honor.

 

[HappyRevert]

I Don’t know if there will be any intersting debates on this thread if it takes off or not. But I want to flush out some things and am curious what others will think or say. There are some topics I’d like to cover. I’ve just recently returned to the Catholic Church after many years as a protestant and some I’m having difficulty and would like to share some of them. Primarily to bolster my faith. Many Catholics will not understand what I mean when I say the Church is primarily a Covenant Theology type system with regard to baptism.

Protestants generally fall into two catagories when speaking of Theology. Coventant theology and dispensationalist. Dispensationalist are where most fundalmentalist fall. No matter how moral a church that holds a Covenant view of theology is; the dispensationalist will call them liberals. I find that funny since Covenant Theology came first and therefore is the more conservative view. Anyway the point is baptism. Catholics believe that Baptism is entry into the faith and that it provides for the remission of sins and clears the soul of that person. That person is then entered into the Family of God. Many protestants don’t have a sacramental view of baptism rather its an ordenance of symbolism. What is sacramental (well, as close as you can get to the Catholic view ) in many Protestant beliefs is the consept of being “born again”. Ie you pray for Jesus to come into your heart(“the sinners prayer”) and he does and you become a new creature. I have seen many protestant conversion stories and they are very emotional and many talked about this feeling or that they cried. I never had that kind of emotional experience. I just knew I wanted Jesus. I now wonder if I hadn’t had him all along (since I had been baptised a Catholic) and just did what I was supposed to do as a Catholic. Maybe, I was already in the covenant church that Jesus established an my soul somehow knew it. Its a thought. However, to be fair my life did change for the better after that.

First, Welcome Home!!!

I always like the comparison between the Protestant and Catholic views on conversions because I’ve been lucky enough to have both “types” as a Catholic, and I like to use words by a Presbyterian pastor although I am changing the context a little. He talked about the Lord taking a beach head - in the sense of a war. Once the Lord has a beachhead in your soul he can move out from there and conquer you entirely so to speak. He just needs the initial groundwork so he can set out. When the pastor spoke of this, he was talking about a conversion, but in a Catholic framework, it would be Baptism. Your soul was marked at Baptism and the Lord given the beach head to work from there. He has been converting you ever since, you just may not have noticed it. As Catholics because we believe in life long conversion, I sometimes think we miss that huge shift in our souls that the Holy Spirit can bring. Particularly when we are living a good Catholic life, the shifts are tiny and not huge so probably go unnoticed until you think about how far you have come in your Spiritual life. These flow so naturally out of our sacraments, it is almost a pity that it makes it harder for us to see sometimes.

The conversion experiences that Protestants have are in many cases genuine. They do receive the Holy Spirit and have huge shifts in their soul that profoundly change them. They don’t have the constant benefit of the sacraments that we do so the shifts are huge and wonderful and very noticeable. After thousands of the tiny shifts (baby steps) I was describing above as a practicing Catholic, I was blessed to have a huge conversion/cleansing experience as well. It still is very difficult for me to describe, but it profoundly changed me in a matter of minutes. However, it is ultimately no more “valuable” than the thousands of baby steps I took before that because I have needed all of them to get where I am now. I am still being converted daily in more tiny steps so hopefully before I die, I will be as close to Him as I can be.

If I read your posting right, that sounded like what has happened to you. You had the benefit of the small sacramental steps as well as a profound shift that the protestants call being made a “new creature”.

 

[sambos671]

First, Welcome Home!!!

I always like the comparison between the Protestant and Catholic views on conversions because I’ve been lucky enough to have both “types” as a Catholic, and I like to use words by a Presbyterian pastor although I am changing the context a little. He talked about the Lord taking a beach head - in the sense of a war. Once the Lord has a beachhead in your soul he can move out from there and conquer you entirely so to speak. He just needs the initial groundwork so he can set out. When the pastor spoke of this, he was talking about a conversion, but in a Catholic framework, it would be Baptism. Your soul was marked at Baptism and the Lord given the beach head to work from there. He has been converting you ever since, you just may not have noticed it. As Catholics because we believe in life long conversion, I sometimes think we miss that huge shift in our souls that the Holy Spirit can bring. Particularly when we are living a good Catholic life, the shifts are tiny and not huge so probably go unnoticed until you think about how far you have come in your Spiritual life. These flow so naturally out of our sacraments, it is almost a pity that it makes it harder for us to see sometimes.

The conversion experiences that Protestants have are in many cases genuine. They do receive the Holy Spirit and have huge shifts in their soul that profoundly change them. They don’t have the constant benefit of the sacraments that we do so the shifts are huge and wonderful and very noticeable. After thousands of the tiny shifts (baby steps) I was describing above as a practicing Catholic, I was blessed to have a huge conversion/cleansing experience as well. It still is very difficult for me to describe, but it profoundly changed me in a matter of minutes. However, it is ultimately no more “valuable” than the thousands of baby steps I took before that because I have needed all of them to get where I am now. I am still being converted daily in more tiny steps so hopefully before I die, I will be as close to Him as I can be.

If I read your posting right, that sounded like what has happened to you. You had the benefit of the small sacramental steps as well as a profound shift that the protestants call being made a “new creature”.

I would have to agree with you that I’ve had both.

 

[mark_a]

I finally prayed that dangerous prayer. “Lord, you are going to have to hit me over the head with a 2X4 and let me know if you want me Catholic”.

I’m curious about the 2x4.

 

[sambos671]

So on further reflection of the “right” way of doing things with regard to the OT passages I quoted. I wondered how the early church viewed such things. Paul in his letter to the Corinthians said this :

27Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. 29For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself. 30That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. 31But if we judged ourselves, we would not come under judgment. 32When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world.

So certainly with the Eucharist there is propiety. I find this very interesting from Clement of Rome in 90 AD

It Follows, then, that there ought to be scritct order and method in our performance of such acts as the Master has prescribed for certain times and seasons…Levites and the layman is bound by regulations affecting the laity…When we offer our own Eucharis to God, each one of us should keep to his own degree. His conscience mut be clear, he must not infringe the rules prescribed for his ministering, and he is to bear himself with reverence

And here is a comment from Clement with regard to Apostolic Succession again in 90 AD

Similarly, our Apostles knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, that there would be dissensions over the tilte bishop. In their full foreknowledge of this, therefore, they proceeded to appoint the ministers I spoke of and they went on to add an instruction that if these should fall asleep, other accredited persons should succed them in their office. In view of this, we cannot think it right for these men now to be ejected from their ministry

As an aside a rebuke from Clement through the ages to protestant churches. So The Scriptures themselves suggest propiety in sacrifice - worship. Paul definately views necessity of propiety as does clement just a short 30 - 40 years later says the same thing and shows apostolic succession which matches with the claims of the Catholic church. One of the things that has led be back to the Catholic church has been consistency of teaching from the begining.

 

[emarc]

welcome home and may the Holy Spirit’s presence be strong in your life. pray for my sister who left the Church to join her sda husband. just as Jesus warned, a house built on sand will not last.
God bless.

 

[tundramom]

I’m curious about the 2x4.

It hurt every aspect of my life and ended up with me on my knees begging for relief. It almost cost me my physical life, in fact.

If you’d like to know more, PM me.

in Christ
Steph

 

[benedicter]

Welcome back.

I had a tortuous route including 2 x 4 . My problem in a way was life was going to well and well it just didn’t crack up.

God has a great sense of humour, I came in one more time after a long lapse through the Anglican (Episcopalian) Church through the death of an aunt. God had a dastardly plan. We went to ONE service and felt too guilty not to go back. The good thing was they converted my husband from a nominal Anglican to a full on Christian. Then back to the Catholic Church - God gave me NO choice. My husband followed and became a Catholic. He wept for JOY and loves it. Though the trials with liberals drive us NUTS.

The best stuff to read on Covenant in the Catholic Church is Scott Hahn. He will knock your socks off. You are in the true Covenant Church. Dispensational theology is totally incompatible with the Catholic understanding of Church.

Good luck. Take up the Divine Office. Read the Saints and swim around in the richness of it all. Its DIVINE. Find a faithful priest, do the Ignatian Exercises. Don’t hold back dive in.

 

[sambos671]

Welcome back.

I had a tortuous route including 2 x 4 . My problem in a way was life was going to well and well it just didn’t crack up.

God has a great sense of humour, I came in one more time after a long lapse through the Anglican (Episcopalian) Church through the death of an aunt. God had a dastardly plan. We went to ONE service and felt too guilty not to go back. The good thing was they converted my husband from a nominal Anglican to a full on Christian. Then back to the Catholic Church - God gave me NO choice. My husband followed and became a Catholic. He wept for JOY and loves it. Though the trials with liberals drive us NUTS.

The best stuff to read on Covenant in the Catholic Church is Scott Hahn. He will knock your socks off. You are in the true Covenant Church. Dispensational theology is totally incompatible with the Catholic understanding of Church.

Good luck. Take up the Divine Office. Read the Saints and swim around in the richness of it all. Its DIVINE. Find a faithful priest, do the Ignatian Exercises. Don’t hold back dive in.

Thanks. Whats the Ignatian Exercises? Right now I do the liturgy of the Hours. I’ve read Ignatius letters. It doesn’t have anything to do with being martyred does it.? He seemed to wear the badge of Martyrdom with zeal. Don’t get me wrong If God calls me to that I’ll pray that I’ll be couragous and ask for his special grace in that matter however its not something I hope for either.

 

[benedicter]

. Whats the Ignatian Exercises? Right now I do the liturgy of the Hours. .

It is great that you do the Divine Office. My husband and I do that too, morning and evening and sometimes night office. My husband says his on the train to and from work!

The Spiritual Exercises of Ignatius are a great blessing for the Church. You need a competent and FAITHFUL spiritual director who knows this spiritual journey. They can be done two ways - in a silent 30-40 day retreat or over the course of a year as prayer in daily life.

The retreat option is difficult re the time committment and often expensive. I did it in daily life over the course of a year. I would see my Spiritual Director each week and review the previous week and be set up for the next week.

I recommend that you do not start trying to find out about them on the net. I resolved not to do that as knowing what the next week is about in each case can ruin it.

Pray for God to provide the perfect Spiritual Director for you. I have to say that the provision of that person for me after desiring to do the Spiritual Exercises was a sudden and marvellous provision from God which I instantly recognised. So trust God will set it all up.

The Spiritual Exercises in short is a solid and Gospel orientated journey in the life of Christ. It is a spiritual battle for your full conversion, discernment in your life, and the journey ahead. The Holy Spirit works powerfully within it. Expect God to be there for you in a powerful way. It will set you up, if you are faithful and well guided, to a life of union with God through Jesus.

God bless you and pray for this gift.

 

[manualman]

Welcome back! I hear you LOUD and clear having spent my college year with the protestant dispensationalist group called the Navigators. It’s been a while since I ‘spoke protestant.’ You bring back old memories!

I want to reiterate the above recommendation that you give Dr. Scott Hahn some reading. He’s another convert and his conversion specifically focused on covenant theology.

 

[sambos671]

I’ve enjoyed the devotion and participating in the sacraments. However, I’m having this struggle and wondered if other converted protestants understand and have advice on this issue.

Many of the Catholics I’m coming in contact with seem not to have faith or misunderstanding the magesterium. I could be wrong and possibly I shouldn’t judge but I’m fellowshiping with these people because they are Catholic but let me give you an example.

I’ve one mentioned a woman who participates in helping those unable to partake in the Eucharist but believes in ghost and mediums and thinks Jesus was not a man because he was sinnless.

Another person (catholic) I’ve met told me that the scriptures are not the word of God but man’s attempt at understanding God. They don’t believe the need of the sacraments and that they are the result of man’s corruption and the Church’s attempt at control. They also believe that all we are required to do is make our way as we see fit. They don’t see that knowing scriptures is benefital and that the consept of sin causes us to be judgemental. Yet they participate in the Parish administration, appointment making helping the priest do set the schedule.

My own mother (catholic) believes that the catholic church is correct but so is budhism and its ok to be what ever you want.

It seems I’m coming accross all sorts of people that as a protestant I would say aren’t “saved” or have a personal relationship with the Lord. But these are Catholics baptised into the church! And I feel like I’m in the minority at my parish! As a protestant I would call them “liberals” who have no faith. But as a Catholic how am I to view them? How am I to fellowship with these? It’s like hanging out with non christians. What am I missing here?

 

[emeraldcoast]

I’ve enjoyed the devotion and participating in the sacraments. However, I’m having this struggle and wondered if other converted protestants understand and have advice on this issue.

Many of the Catholics I’m coming in contact with seem not to have faith or misunderstanding the magesterium. I could be wrong and possibly I shouldn’t judge but I’m fellowshiping with these people because they are Catholic but let me give you an example.

I’ve one mentioned a woman who participates in helping those unable to partake in the Eucharist but believes in ghost and mediums and thinks Jesus was not a man because he was sinnless.

Another person (catholic) I’ve met told me that the scriptures are not the word of God but man’s attempt at understanding God. They don’t believe the need of the sacraments and that they are the result of man’s corruption and the Church’s attempt at control. They also believe that all we are required to do is make our way as we see fit. They don’t see that knowing scriptures is benefital and that the consept of sin causes us to be judgemental. Yet they participate in the Parish administration, appointment making helping the priest do set the schedule.

My own mother (catholic) believes that the catholic church is correct but so is budhism and its ok to be what ever you want.

It seems I’m coming accross all sorts of people that as a protestant I would say aren’t “saved” or have a personal relationship with the Lord. But these are Catholics baptised into the church! And I feel like I’m in the minority at my parish! As a protestant I would call them “liberals” who have no faith. But as a Catholic how am I to view them? How am I to fellowship with these? It’s like hanging out with non christians. What am I missing here?

Hi Sambos,

I have a quick question after reading your above post. How active is your Adult Sunday School Class at this Church?

God Bless!

 

[Deconi]

Thanks JohnNC and Tundramom. I’m glad to be back now that I have a better appreciatiion for the Magesterium of the Church. You know going to Confession and receiveing the Eucharist have both been a great and wonderful thing. As a protestant I prayed for forgiveness and help with sinful issues directly to God. However, it wasn’t long before they became issues again and the cycle would repeat itself… **As a Catholic going to Confession not only is their a great sence of forgiveness but just as importantly I’ve been able to actually keep these same issues at bay and seem to have changed my thought processes about them. I’m more at peace. ** Part of the help with defeating the sin is that confession forces me to have (what protestants would call) an accountability partner. Like I mentioned before receive the Eucharist gave me a great sence of honor.

…Also receiving The Eucharist ARMS you per week against your real antagonist! He is a ‘puller!’

Welcome Back!

 

[Through_Him]

I was away from the Church for years and when I came back I recieved much advice from a spiritual director I would recommend this too. Many Catholics are still on their journey as we all are so stick to the basics but allow for growth and you may be an apostle for others.God Bless You.

 

[sambos671]

Hi Sambos,

I have a quick question after reading your above post. How active is your Adult Sunday School Class at this Church?

God Bless!

Not very. And since I’ve returned my Priest wants me to lead it because of my familiarity. There are others but its not a very large group.

 

[emeraldcoast]

Not very. And since I’ve returned my Priest wants me to lead it because of my familiarity. There are others but its not a very large group.

Do you feel comfortable leading a Bible Study at the Catholic Church since you just yourself returned to it? It would be wonderful if your Priest would take the lead at the Bible Study–which may encourage more people to get involved in the group.

Your Church may want to take a look at the Great Adventure Bible Study. We do have Catholic Churches in the area that are using it with a wonderful turn out.
greatadventureonline.com/page.asp?ContentID=2

God Bless!