Some urgent questions

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Hello,

After seeing different things on different threads on this forum, I would like to ask the following questions and I would appreciate it if anyone can give me a firm answer, preferably with reference to a Church document.​

  1. Can the Pope contradict a Council on doctrine?
Here, I do not mean a seeming inconsistency later to be reconciled. I am asking of a case where hypothetically, something is actually contradictory.
Yes to council. No to doctrine.

A council isn’t always right or infallible. The Robber Council was nullified by the Pope. So that is a good example of a Pope going against a Council.

A Pope going against doctrine is a heretic. Like what happened to Pope Honorious. So he was anathemized by 2 Ecumenical Councils later on. To be more precise, anyone going against doctrine is a heretic, Pope or otherwise.
  1. Are there Ecumenical Councils in our history that have been rejected as invalid or validity-to-be-determined status?
The first council to be thought as the Seventh Ecumenical Council was the council that ruled in favor of iconoclasm. Although I doubt it was actually universally accepted, so it was later overrules by the actual Seventh Ecumenical Council which ruled in favor of the use of icons. But once a council is accepted as Ecumenical, it usually means universal acceptance by canonical bishops and thus it is indeed valid.
  1. What constitutes an approval of a council by a Pope?
Here I understand that maybe another council can approve the first but it would seem to be useless if that council itself is unapproved then…
He signs-off on the canons and other rulings of the council.
  1. If all Catholics believed something to be doctrinally true at a time and was taught in the church, can it be claimed later to be wrong?
I am specifically referring to doctrine here rather than laws.
No, absolutely not. Our faith has not changed from the day Jesus taught them to the Apostles. Remember, our faith is Apostolic. If the Apostles didn’t know about something and today we believe in that thing, then something is wrong with us.
 
I think your example is perfect Brother and I understand what you mean by it.

The reason why I confront on the Muhammad point is that it seems like the only intellectual reason to abandon the Muslim faith. Sometime ago in my own life, I was uncertain as to why I should be Catholic and not Muslim. The common answer I got was that if you were born in to it, that is what you will be and its highly unlikely that you will have intellectual reason to move out of it.

I have heard some say that any other non-Catholics could identify with the positive things of our faith but I am not so sure about it anymore. There are so many non-Catholics, especially Atheists who will ridicule positions of our faith that are morals, faith, and even canon law. I also find that when I explain to them on how to make sense of these positions of our Church, they will still ask why I would believe in it and the theology behind it. This strikes me as a valid question and certainly one that needs an answer.

So what/how I made sense of all of this is by asking how do I know which religion is true. It seemed to me that everything that mattered in each religion were its claims on the Transcendent. The Transcendent would be outside of our direct experience to verify. So one would have to ground the knowledge in someone who can reveal it to us.

The issue then is that this person one chooses to rely on for knowledge regarding the Transcendent has to show that they are reliable. So every religion on earth can be analyzed to see if the founder of the religion is reliable. In the case of Zeus, Thor etc, we have a negative answer since no one who came up with these myths can be credited to have any authority. Also, Zeus and Thor tend to be Gods of the gaps. They tend to be described as the lightning or some other physical phenomena itself. So scientific knowledge can also disprove the non-existence.

With figures like Buddha or Muhammad, neither performed any acts for us to make us believe them. Buddha they say could speak to animals. But this does not say that he has authority of the Transcendent. Muhammad they say became literate all of a sudden and compiled/recited a text such as the Bible. This too is not that impressive since any person could educate themselves to the point of reciting a narrative/instruction etc.

Christ on the other hand, died and rose from the dead. Something we cannot yet reproduce and something we know ancient societies were incapable of performing. So Christ seems worthy of our assent, at least from the perspective of learning knowledge to resurrect ourselves. In this way, then one can justify assent to the Apostles since they were his students and the students/successors of the Apostles since they were the students of the first Apostles and so forth.

At this point, a Muslim might say Muhammad claims that Jesus never died. But since we have already dismissed the idea of assenting Muhammad’s claims as divine, his claim on Christ must be purely historical. However, Muhammad lived almost 600 years after Christ. So it seems unreasonable to believe a claim made 600 years later over those who lived proximately to the event.

A word about the Jewish faith, one might ask why believe in Moses. I would say it reasonable to believe in Moses for the Jewish people since their forefathers had a very testing experience with him. They doubted if Moses was indeed from God. They tried disobeying his commands. But they got punished. This happened more than once. So the Jewish people, in a sense, verified to themselves that God was indeed speaking through Moses. The only issue here is that it is perhaps unreasonable for someone outside the Jewish lineage to give assent to it because they do not have the same level of trust in Jewish forefathers.

I feel that this is an intellectual way to arrive at Catholicism (or Judaism as a precursor to Catholicism) and also discard all the other religions as false.

I also feel that the method of simply discussing and explaining our own position is not enough to pursue someone to abandon ones faith, especially since it is cultural. We would only be able to appeal to the preferences of the person in this way. So unless a person has already grown up with a preference for Catholic positions that do not exist in their own, they will be less likely to embrace the Catholic position.

I also feel that while sometimes they might accidentally agree and even state Catholic positions as their own. They will tend to backtrack and oppose that position for what it is (i.e. something they liked out of preference) and uphold their own as what they truly believe. Or there are those who would discard some of their own and try to have a mixed Catholic-Islamic faith. I think this is dangerous because underneath, they hold the idea that no religion could be identified as the true religion through reason. So they must go with preference.

This idea also seems to pour over to the moral plane. There are even Catholics, who consider that the moral plane which deals with the Transcendent, has to rely on preference/consensus. They argue that what is a Church or a Religion to tell them what morality might be. I find that their position is indeed true and they too ask a valid question. If a Church or Religion cannot give actual reasonable grounds to accept them as the reliable authority regarding the Transcendent, why should anyone give assent to them?

So I find, in my personal experience, that not confronting the actual problem of all these other religions having no authority to be the sole issue. Because right now, I feel the Atheist or non-Catholic are asking very valid questions of the authority of the Church or of any other religion to dictate truths regarding the Transcendent through them. If we try to stand together with other religions, we only make ourselves look unreasonable as well?
 
I think your example is perfect Brother and I understand what you mean by it.

If we try to stand together with other religions, we only make ourselves look unreasonable as well?
Standing along side is not the same as agreement on everything. We can stand alongside each other to deliver a message to the world on the things that we do believe in common, such as peace, justice, the end of violence and terror, religious freedom. It’s very hard to dialogue religion if there is no religious freedom.

The Brits and the Americans have a serious problem on our hands and we need to address it quickly, more so than the Muslim or Jewish question. We’re living in two countries that are on a very overt campaign to control all forms of religious work, language and education.

On another note, your exposition is well stated. It also proves why this dialogue with Islam is not as black and white as people would like to make it. The complexity is enormous and the consequences can be fatal, if it’s not handled with tact and patience.

It’s often very easy for people to say that we should aggressively pursue the conversion of Muslims. However, ask any Chaldean, Melkite, Syriac or other Middle Eastern Catholic who lives in the Muslim world and they’ll tell you that they have enough problems without us meddling. They’re barely allowed to worship as it is. If we start meddling and nagging the Muslims, it’s not the Catholic in Europe, America or Australia who is going to pay. It’s the Catholic in the Middle East, the Orthodox, and the Protestant.

Because the Holy Father understands this bigger picture, it is always wise to go with whatever the Commission for Muslim Catholic Dialogue is doing and use their style and their method. If we don’t like their style, then leave it alone. Let someone else do it. We don’t all have to get involved in this.

When St. Francis returned to Assisi frustrated that he had failed to convert the Muslims, Clare told him to focus on the Catholics whose souls were in greater danger than the Muslims and to leave the Muslims to someone else. She was right. From that point forward, Francis focused on Europe. His order grew past the one million mark and reformed the Church.

About 150 years later, the Dominicans in Southern Spain had great success with the Muslims living in that region. Those Muslims were exposed to Catholics and Jews. They were neighbors and there was trust. Some were even business partners. The environment was right. At this point in our history, the environment is not right to aggressively seek to convert Muslims.

As far as Jews are concerned, the Church has already spoken. Hands off. God has a plan for the Jews. If they come on their own, that’s part of God’s plan. We pray that they will hear the voice of Christ as he calls them. We know that he will call them on His schedule, not our schedule. These are his people.

We must remember, there is nothing wrong with inviting, asking questions, answering questions, being friends and it continues to be our moral duty to live the Christian faith as overtly as possible without being disrespectful, condescending, cruel or indifferent.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
 
Standing along side is not the same as agreement on everything. We can stand alongside each other to deliver a message to the world on the things that we do believe in common, such as peace, justice, the end of violence and terror, religious freedom. It’s very hard to dialogue religion if there is no religious freedom.

About 150 years later, the Dominicans in Southern Spain had great success with the Muslims living in that region. Those Muslims were exposed to Catholics and Jews. They were neighbors and there was trust. Some were even business partners. The environment was right. At this point in our history, the environment is not right to aggressively seek to convert Muslims.

As far as Jews are concerned, the Church has already spoken. Hands off. God has a plan for the Jews. If they come on their own, that’s part of God’s plan. We pray that they will hear the voice of Christ as he calls them. We know that he will call them on His schedule, not our schedule. These are his people.

We must remember, there is nothing wrong with inviting, asking questions, answering questions, being friends and it continues to be our moral duty to live the Christian faith as overtly as possible without being disrespectful, condescending, cruel or indifferent.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
I understand what you mean. But is there no intellectual issue in asking anyone to respect any religious liberty?

In other words, I feel that such a right does not exist to simply believe and practice anything one wishes. If contraception was simply a Catholic religious belief and the Catholic religion was just an arbitrary religion with no grounding for assent, I would argue that such a position should not be respected.

You surely wouldn’t agree Brother that blood transfusions should not be covered within health insurance in order to facilitate perhaps lets say Jehovah’s Witness or another arbitrary religion that holds it to be immoral?

Why should anyone respect arbitrary philosophical/theological frameworks on the Transcendent (i.e. religions)?

I feel that if the Church pursues this route, it simply causes more harm toward itself.

With the Jewish people, I can understand tolerating them for they are not strictly speaking in error. They are intellectually grounded in the experience of God working miracles for them through Moses that their forefathers shared and passed down. But this is not true with other faiths.

To clarify, when I say error, I do not necessarily refer to the content of any faith but rather toward the reasonable nature of the act of assenting to the particular faith.

Now I am against simply waving this in the face of Muslims simply out of nowhere. But when questioned by an Atheist or when questioned by a Muslim themselves, I do not see why we should not point out the error.

If I understand you Brother, you suggest that we may be able to nudge them toward God through discussing similarities and our doctrine. But intellectually speaking, neither of these are cause for rejection of their own faith and acceptance of the Catholic faith. Even the Apostles of Christ seem to have gone out to the world with the Resurrection as their grounds for giving authority to Christ. Scripture seems very clear that if this did not take place, and Christ died, our faith is in vain.

Once we destroy the authority of the position they hold on to, then we can certainly try to attract them to our own faith by showing the similarities and how they will not need to give up some of the truths they might have come to know in some private experience.

But if we simply choose today to defend even those in error and their liberty to practice what they believe, are we not in trouble? I can understand defending them and standing with them as far as they agree with Catholic doctrine. Even then, the Church will have to make clear what they are defending. But to defend the notion of complete religious liberty for everyone seems to be in error. It seems impractical and I feel that I can sympathize in that case with those who oppose it today. The underlying question of the non-believe tends to be “Why give assent or respect to an arbitrary collection of rules or laws regarding the Transcendent?”. I feel that this is a very valid question.

To me, for the Church to ask contraception and abortion to be removed from the HHS mandate for an example on religious liberty grounds seems unreasonable. There are others who would then like other things to be removed on Religious Liberty grounds or even start a new religion that requires all of the HHS mandate to be rejected. So it seems impractical.

I see the Church opposing the contraception and abortion issue from the point of view that it possesses the truth of the Transcendent, hence the moral law. Since the acts are contrary to this law, it advices its faithful to oppose it and efforts of those who normalize/facilitate it. It could further argue for respect toward its position since it is grounded intellectually and it’s claims are the best possible view humanity has of the Transcendent truths.
 
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