Someday--there will be priestless parishes?

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I’m sorry, I meant by not causing scandal by running to the papers, etc, but not releasing the priest from responsibility. That is once they knew it was true. Why in the world they switched parishes, what did they think, a new rectory, children would make the priest different? If it had been a relationship with an adult woman, which happens, they might of thought “a new start”, but you would have to be a deviant yourself to think that molesting a child is “cured” by a change of scenery. And when you are moved 5 times!! Hello?
The only thing I could think of, was the halo they were given back then was so important, the power, they couldn’t relinquish it no matter what happened. And we weren’t short the priests at the time we are now.
Well, you can move on sometimes. One woman who was part of the lawsuit, is working in the Catholic church as a choir director now, and didn’t leave as some others. She said at 42, no one would take advantage of her again and she didn’t want to leave the church, just wanted justice. Another gentleman became Baptist, just couldn’t say he was Catholic anymore. You can only pray for them, all of them.
 
Mt_28_19_20 said:
Obviously, I disagree that celibacy is a pointless discussion. In fact you point out that it could change. What might be signs from God that He wants it to change? Perhaps:
  1. More and more priestless parishes? (Is it even a parish anymore without a priest? More like a side project to visit on a regular basis?)
  2. Recognizing the past popes, bishops, and priests who have been married with children (or just had children outside of marriage)? (Didn’t Galway have a popular priest, and a bishop who were found within the last 10 years to have fathered children? Try googling Galway scandal Catholic… or some similar combination)
  3. More settlements for sexual abuse allegations? From this weeks’ news release from the LA Archdiocese:
    "ARCHDIOCESE OF LOS ANGELES ANNOUNCES SETTLEMENT OF 45 CASES OF ALLEGED SEXUAL ABUSE BY CLERGY
    The Archdiocese of Los Angeles announced today that it has settled for $60 million 45 cases in which clergy abuse has been alleged—a cost shared by insurers, religious orders and the Archdiocese. The Archdiocese’s share of the settlement cost—approximately $40 million—was anticipated and set aside last year. In a statement today (see below), Cardinal Roger Mahony said, “I want to assure you…that no parishes will be affected as a result of this settlement.”
" a cost shared by … and the Archdiocese." Why not just say 40 million will come from the faithful laity who tithe and give generously? Makes one want to through in a little extra at Sunday worship?

Did anyone else wonder how cardinal Mahony could say with a straight face “I want to assure you…that no parishes will be affected as a result of this settlement.”?

So, shall we close our eyes and follow blindly, choosing to interpret 1 Cor 7 as a basis for celibacy, instead of reading BOTH OT and NT Scripture in context? How many accept the lame interpretations of 1 Tim 3:2, 12, and Titus 1:6? And how many close their eyes to the reality of the spiritual health of the members of the Church, both priests and laity?

So, why not hold on to the “tradition” of celibacy, even if it means priestless parishes? That’s wisdom?

Michael
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Michael,
Please explain to me how mandatory celibacy causes men to molest children. I have lived as a celibate man for some 8 years now and my normal healthy attraction to women has remained. My celibate life has never led me to start desiring molesting children-male or female. I look forward to you backing up your argument with some evidence so you can share with us your “wisdom”.

Also, hasn’t the Church had mandatory celibacy for several centuries? Why did that not lead to a priest shortage during those times? Why all of a sudden now?
 
Mt_28_19_20 said:
How does handling something quietly send a message? Isn’t that the problem? No ownership of responsibility by those in charge, until forced by lawsuits? It is shameful. Such holy leadership! Most moral teenagers would have handled things better than men who renounced Godly marriage for a position of respect and authority.

Michael
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What does this have to do with the current thread theme–priestless parishes? I have many friends in the seminary. They are angry at the failures of the minority of priests and bishops. That does not stop them from wanting to be priests (in fact, it makes them want to be GOOD HEROIC priests). Oh yeah, and they embrace celibacy as a good thing.
 
Mt_28_19_20 said:
Read Sacred Scripture in context.

It’s not about celibacy, it is about loving God first, then others, then self. Marriage to Joseph did not keep Mary from serving God.
Marriage to Zipporah did not keep Moses from serving God (Ex 2:21). There are married Catholic men who would make good priests, as evidence by their love for their wife and children (1 Tim 3:2). So what if more parishes will be priestless?
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Your interpretation of the chapter in question is valid, but general enough to be applied to the entire Bible. The literal, word for word reading of this chapter unarguably shows that St. Paul (inspired by God Himself) considers celibacy to be a higher calling than married life, even though being married and engaging in sexual relations with your spouse is not by any means sinful.
Your examples of Moses and Mary are nice, but they did not serve in the sacramental priesthood. And I’m not even saying that a married priesthood is a no-no, but rather that God loves celibacy! I would be hesitant, also, to conclude from a love of wife and children that a man would make a good priest.

Read this article, specifically, scroll down to the section called “Origin”.
newadvent.org/cathen/02561a.htm
According to this article, ancient practice was for a married man to be ordained, but then for him to be celibate, even in his married state!
 
Spirithound said:
Your interpretation of the chapter in question is valid, but general enough to be applied to the entire Bible. The literal, word for word reading of this chapter unarguably shows that St. Paul (inspired by God Himself) considers celibacy to be a higher calling than married life, even though being married and engaging in sexual relations with your spouse is not by any means sinful.
Your examples of Moses and Mary are nice, but they did not serve in the sacramental priesthood. And I’m not even saying that a married priesthood is a no-no, but rather that God loves celibacy! I would be hesitant, also, to conclude from a love of wife and children that a man would make a good priest.

Read this article, specifically, scroll down to the section called “Origin”.
newadvent.org/cathen/02561a.htm
According to this article, ancient practice was for a married man to be ordained, but then for him to be celibate, even in his married state!
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This is right on. Besides, people who do not see 1 Cor 7 as pertaining to celibacy ought to at least read it in the context of Matthew 19. What else does “becoming eunichs for the sake of the Kingdom.” I just do not understand why so many people can decry celibacy when it was practiced by our Lord Himself!
Married men could and (in very few cases in the Catholic Church) do serve as fine priests. My spiritual director is a priest and is married (convert). He is excellent. However, celibacy has a long and rich tradition in the life of the Church. Celibacy leads one to see their priestly ministry as not just one vocation among others, but a man’s entire life and identity. Being celibate helps one to be freed up to love your bride the Church in imitation of Christ in total abandonment. In addition, I do not believe that taking married men as candidates for the priesthood would necessarily increase the number of priests. Every guy I know that truly feels called to the priesthood has been able to embrace the vocation of celibacy as well.
For those who think that they know so much about priestly celibacy–they should ask themselves how many celibate priests they know personally. I know many, and am celibate myself, and most priests that I know live fruitful lives as a celibates. They get frustrated with many of the lay people who try to “save” them from their state in life.
 
Spirithound said:
Your interpretation of the chapter in question is valid, but general enough to be applied to the entire Bible. The literal, word for word reading of this chapter unarguably shows that St. Paul (inspired by God Himself) considers celibacy to be a higher calling than married life, even though being married and engaging in sexual relations with your spouse is not by any means sinful.
Your examples of Moses and Mary are nice, but they did not serve in the sacramental priesthood. And I’m not even saying that a married priesthood is a no-no, but rather that God loves celibacy! I would be hesitant, also, to conclude from a love of wife and children that a man would make a good priest.

Read this article, specifically, scroll down to the section called “Origin”.
newadvent.org/cathen/02561a.htm
According to this article, ancient practice was for a married man to be ordained, but then for him to be celibate, even in his married state!
Click to expand...
Do not forget that those who served in the temple during the Old Testament priesthood abstained from marital relations for a time while serving. How much more so could New Testament priests–configured to the priesthood of Christ–be consecrated to the Bride of Christ the Church as a way of life.
 
I actually forgot that I posted this thtead…and ran across it tonight. lol

Question–are some of you saying that priestless parishes are somehow related to celibacy issues? :confused:
 
whatevergirl said:
I actually forgot that I posted this thtead…and ran across it tonight. lol

Question–are some of you saying that priestless parishes are somehow related to celibacy issues? :confused:
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Some of them are saying this. I am not so certain. I know many men who have entered seminary (I, too, have been in seminary and am still discerning). My experience has been that once you feel a calling to consecrated ministry, celibacy is not quite the burden or obstacle that many laity imagine it to be. Celibacy can actually be quite liberating.

There were also some rediculous posts about how celibacy causes child sexual abuse. When people make such ignorant comments I get fired up mad!

Bottom line, Catholic friends: do you want to understand celibacy? Talk to a number of good faithful priests, brothers, and women religious. Do not form your opinion about celibacy and vocations from rabidly anti-Catholic TV shows and the news media.
 
whatevergirl said:
I actually forgot that I posted this thtead…and ran across it tonight. lol

Question–are some of you saying that priestless parishes are somehow related to celibacy issues? :confused:
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Hey whatevergirl, you can’t just start a thread and stir up all this controversy and then forget and abandon the thread. ha ha.😃
 
People speak of celibacy as if it were a disease to avoid. It can be difficult to lead a chaste life, but if God is calling one to the priesthood, then one should believe that God will help that man through the difficulties that he will face. Obviously, there will be difficulties and temptations. But, I disagree that the declining priesthood is due to celibacy. Man dealt with celibacy back in the 30’s 40’s and 50’s…etc…and the priesthood was thriving. But, at the same time, the priesthood was also highly respected. Revered. Between the distractions to keep acquiring more money…to the decline in marriages staying in tact…to kids being born out of wedlock…to the scandals that rocked the RCC…all of these things create a recipe for men not wanting to become priests. When marriage was considered something sacred…when sex was considered something sacred…it was dare I say, maybe easier, for men to become priests, because they were needed. People don’t respect virtue anymore, by and large. So…men might feel that they are in a role that doesn’t offer anything to the public like the role of a priest once did.

I certainly respect the priesthood, and so do many/most of you on here…and in our Catholic world…but, a strange thing happened today, that offers up an example to what I’m saying here. Today, we had a visiting priest who spoke about women’s role within the Church. He said…‘FOR NOW, anyways, women are not priests.’ :eek: Thought that was very telling…more telling was his tone. A tone of resignation…do you follow what I’m saying?

anyone?😦
 
I don’t see what celibacy has to do with abuse…how silly, if anything, they’d be having affairs with adult women, not seeking out young boys, that’s a disease.

That said, I agree with whatevergirl, that it’s scary when you hear a priest say it. I was talking last year to an older priest (65) and he was discussing old classmates that left the priesthood to get married…one married an ex-nun and had children and his wife wrote a letter about letting priests get married in a Boston paper. She signed his name too, but this priest knew he didn’t agree with that, he wasn’t cut out for the priesthood, but he didn’t disaprove of celibacy. That said, when I left he told me to tell my son, “it’s not a bad job, went on to mention some “perks” and then said and it looks like cellibacy might be ending in the future, maybe not mine, but his.” I was surprised after his earlier speech but I know he was thinking of the dwindling numbers. No one really wants to say it, the “pink elephant” in the room, but even with greater numbers going in the seminary, with the time it takes, etc. you are going to have to close churches, you are going to have a lot of young, inexperienced priests with no one to help them and he hopes they aren’t discouraged.
I know the church will survive, but it will be a bumpy road in some areas.
 
We have a number of priestless parishes in our diocese now. In the small towns, one church is a mission church of another, and one priest will attempt to serve two or more parishes. Our parish has a mission church in the next town but is lucky enough to have “borrowed” a priest from Colombia. The poor fellow is run ragged on weekends because he has four or five small parishes to take care of and often has to say mass in Spanish and English at some of them. Even the large parishes, which used to have as many as four priests, are now down to one.

I see the celibacy issue as being secondary to the responsibility of raising a family and being a pastor at the same time. There aren’t enough hours in the day. However, I know a number of older married men who would be willing to become priests, with the full support of their wives, and would make excellent priests. Let’s face it, enjoying your grandchildren is not nearly as time consuming as raising your own. In my opinion, the Church is missing out on the treasure of these men’s faith and life experiences by not relaxing the celibacy rule a little and making use of their talents.
 
I think pp has a point with the smaller families. I remember reading somewhere that priests and religious are often the seventh or eighth child of a family. It makes sense. When there are only one or two children, parents become very concerned about them marrying and having children because there is no one else to “carry on the family name.” I remember my parish priest saying as much during a homily- that parents discourage their children from vocations because, “I want grandchildren.” With a large family it is much easier to let go and allow each child to follow his/her own calling.
 
I agree and know as a parent, I have heard this before, but I don’t know if your feelings would be drastically different, one child isn’t expendable, so to speak. I think this is a valid reason though, but more common when children stayed close to their parents. Now, some grandparents never see their grandchildren except once or twice a year.
What I don’t think was good years ago was almost forcing your child into the priesthood. I’m Italian descent, but talking to Irish priests and Irish friends, it was almost a given, that one of them should go into the priesthood. One priest told me when his brother flunked out, he was next. I was dumbfounded! I understand it was an honor etc. but if your child didn’t want to go, pushing a vocation could only lead to trouble. I guess there is good and bad on both sides of the coin, encouraging without guilt or pressure and not being selfish if they choose that life and your extended family is cut short.
 
I never meant to say that in a large family, a child becomes more expendable. It’s just that if one child shows an inclination toward the religious life, the parent doesn’t have that fear of “I’ll never have grandchildren.”
 
I’m sorry if I came off even a little harsh…I realize that you didn’t mean that, although working with some parents that are more aloof, they act like if 1 child is close to home in college, the rest can be far away. I guess I always feel the pangs with all of them.
I have twin 15 year old girls and if one wanted to join a convent or both, I would wish it was at least a non-comtemplative so I could visit without a grail, but I know my feelings are selfish. Grandchildren are a blessing and it can be lonely having your only child stay single. Some communities though like the Franciscan one in NYC tell the parents, “think of it as gaining 75 more kids!”
 
I am utterly impressed with how this thread enlightened me so much on the various issues facing men these days, who might be called to priesthood. I pray so hard everyone, every night, every day…that men will not turn away from God’s still, small voice. I pray that they will not allow this culture of death to drag them down away from their true calling.

Thanks so much for your smart insights! I had never thought about the decline of large families…interesting!!
 
I really think today the big issue is not just celibacy, that has always been there in the priesthood, it’s support, by peers and other priests and money. Student loans have to be paid off unless they are small and may men and women have to work or get help before entering seminaries or orders. That can change minds because you’re thinking, 3 years to pay it off (maybe) and then 8 years of school, etc. If you really want too, you will, but it’s daunting. My son will have about 20,000 in loans when he graduates, the “average they say in the college books”, maybe 15,000 if he’s lucky, and that would be hard to pay off first, but doable if you live home and work full time. Not the case years ago.

I also found, and this is just a very small sample, when bringing up my son’s interest in the priesthood to 3 priests last year, not ONE said anything to me or asked to have my son speak to them. You can say they wanted to hear it directly from him, but still, not a smile, nothing. I took it as they were a bit burnt out (all over 50) or didnt’ like the state of things…but again, as very small sample and I could of hit them all on a bad day. The last time, as my smile faded, I felt very sad.
 
debraran said:
I really think today the big issue is not just celibacy, that has always been there in the priesthood, it’s support, by peers and other priests and money. Student loans have to be paid off unless they are small and may men and women have to work or get help before entering seminaries or orders. That can change minds because you’re thinking, 3 years to pay it off (maybe) and then 8 years of school, etc. If you really want too, you will, but it’s daunting. My son will have about 20,000 in loans when he graduates, the “average they say in the college books”, maybe 15,000 if he’s lucky, and that would be hard to pay off first, but doable if you live home and work full time. Not the case years ago.

I also found, and this is just a very small sample, when bringing up my son’s interest in the priesthood to 3 priests last year, not ONE said anything to me or asked to have my son speak to them. You can say they wanted to hear it directly from him, but still, not a smile, nothing. I took it as they were a bit burnt out (all over 50) or didnt’ like the state of things…but again, as very small sample and I could of hit them all on a bad day. The last time, as my smile faded, I felt very sad.
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oh, that is sad, debra:( i wonder what that was about? yes, maybe caught them on a bad day…perhaps.
 
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