Someone else handling the ciborium?

[Jegudiel]

Could you provide a source to back up what you’re saying? Because Redemptionis Sacramentum says this:

It’s talking specifically about purifying vessels after Mass, and it’s the closest thing I’ve seen to answering what I’m talking about. If you can’t provide a source, then please keep your opinions to yourself.

You’ve got things reversed. The onus is on you to prove your assertion. I cannot prove a negative.

 

[Jegudiel]

We are talking about two separate issues here. There is the purification of the sacred vessels, and the reposing of the Blessed Sacrament. Although an indult had been given so that lay persons could purify the sacred vessels, Pope John Paul was very ill and most likely unable the extend that indult. Insofar as reposing the Blessed Sacrament, there is no such restriction that I have found, and extraordinary ministers are permitted to do this. Regarding purification of vessels:

*"Although the General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM) states that the ritual purification of sacred vessels used at Mass must be done by a priest or deacon, or a formally instituted acolyte, the US Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB) had obtained special permission (or “indult”) to allow non-ordained “extraordinary ministers” to perform that role. The indult was granted by the Congregation for Divine Worship on March 22, 2002, for a period of three years. The official letter granting the indult said, in part,

…for grave pastoral reasons, the faculty may be given by the diocesan bishop to the priest celebrant to use the assistance, when necessary, even of extraordinary ministers in the cleansing of sacred vessels after the distribution of Communion has been completed in the celebration of Mass. This faculty is conceded for a period of three years as a dispensation from the norm of the Institutio Generalis, editio typica tertia of the Roman Missal.

When the indult expired in March 2005, the USCCB requested an extension; however, at that time Pope John Paul II was near death, and the election of Pope Benedict XVI took place less than a month later, and no action was taken on the expired indult. In March, the USCCB repeated the request. Cardinal Arinze’s letter explained that he had consulted the Holy Father in June, and that the request was denied."
*
Our parish follows this exactly. Although our priest always purifies the vessels, we as extraordinary ministers are permitted to clean the vessels. We are also permitted to place the Blessed Sacrament in the Tabernacle.

Thank you. It’s wrong to try and commingle topics. I cannot understand why the Church prohibits commissioned EMsHC from purifying sacred vessels when instituted acolytes are approved to do so. It makes no sense to me. But the Church clearly does and that’s that until something changes.

The same cannot be said about EMsHC handling sacred vessels, the Blessed Sacrament or reposing the Blessed Sacrament. There is no such prohibition.

Same with EMsHC distributing communion via intinction. There are some opinions and interpretations out there that suggest a layperson cannot do this, but there is absolutely no clear prohibition from the Church on the matter.

 

[Corki]

We are talking about two separate issues here. There is the purification of the sacred vessels, and the reposing of the Blessed Sacrament. Although an indult had been given so that lay persons could purify the sacred vessels, Pope John Paul was very ill and most likely unable the extend that indult.

The issue of lay people purifying the sacred vessels has nothing to do with Blessed Pope John Paul’s age or illness. The permission to do so had an expiration date. When the indult expired, the US Bishops requested it be extended. The CDW said “no”.

 

[Corki]

Sure it it. Some people who are commissioned EMsHC might also serve Mass but it is their commissioning by the local bishop that allows them to handle the Blessed Sacrament.

I think what he meant was that not all EMHCs are commissioned by the Bishop while some altar servers (those who are instituted acolytes) are commissioned by the Bishop.

As for EMHCs, their commissioning, whether it be by the Bishop or the pastor, only gives them permission to do one thing - distribute Holy Communion. If it’s ok for a lay person to repose the Blessed Sacrament (a practice, I am not convinced is approved), then it makes no difference whether it is an EMHC, a member of the choir or a parishioner who is sitting nearby - they are all lay people assisting at Mass.

 

[Jegudiel]

The issue of lay people purifying the sacred vessels has nothing to do with Blessed Pope John Paul’s age or illness. The permission to do so had an expiration date. When the indult expired, the US Bishops requested it be extended. The CDW said “no”.

Quite true. The CDW received a “no” from Pope Benedict XVI.

 

[Jegudiel]

I think what he meant was that not all EMHCs are commissioned by the Bishop while some altar servers (those who are instituted acolytes) are commissioned by the Bishop.

As for EMHCs, their commissioning, whether it be by the Bishop or the pastor, only gives them permission to do one thing - distribute Holy Communion. If it’s ok for a lay person to repose the Blessed Sacrament (a practice, I am not convinced is approved), then it makes no difference whether it is an EMHC, a member of the choir or a parishioner who is sitting nearby - they are all lay people assisting at Mass.

I would certainly hope all EMsHC are commissioned by the local bishop except for emergency situations. Commissioning cannot be done by a priest.

Commissioned EMsHC are authorized to actually* touch* the Blessed Sacrament. That means something to me if anyone is questioning their ability to repose the Blessed Sacrament.

 

[EasterJoy]

I think what he meant was that not all EMHCs are commissioned by the Bishop while some altar servers (those who are instituted acolytes) are commissioned by the Bishop.

As for EMHCs, their commissioning, whether it be by the Bishop or the pastor, only gives them permission to do one thing - distribute Holy Communion. If it’s ok for a lay person to repose the Blessed Sacrament (a practice, I am not convinced is approved), then it makes no difference whether it is an EMHC, a member of the choir or a parishioner who is sitting nearby - they are all lay people assisting at Mass.

In way of clarification of what you’re saying:

a) Very few parishes without a seminarian in residence ever have a duly instituted acolyte at Mass. Although not uncommonly done in advance of it, liturgical institution of acolytes is usually only done in anticipation of a seminarian’s diaconal ordination.

b) A bishop can give pastors or even presiders at particular Masses permission to deputize other laypeople to carry out any of the functions that the law allows a layperson to do, which includes those things proper to the office of instituted acolyte. The bishop need not make the restrictions you describe, even though your bishop may have quite explicitly made that very restriction universal in his diocese, exactly as you say. IOW, restrictions on EMsHC such as you describe, though of course within the bishop’s authority, would come from the bishop rather than from restrictions existing in canon law.

If a pastor licitly deputizes a layperson, that is, according to permissions he has to do so by the bishop, that permission comes from the bishop. It is like being confirmed by a priest instead of a bishop because you’re confirmed at Easter Vigil. The faculty to give that permission always comes from the bishop and, if given licitly, is the same as if the bishop gave the permission himself, personally.

If you live in a diocese that is large in the geographic sense, this much is fairly obvious. The Archbishop of Portland in Oregon does not travel around Western Oregon commissioning EMsHC himself, nor even in the city of Portland. The bishop of a geographically compact diocese may elect to do so, but not every bishop does, nor does every bishop need to.

Can. 230 §1. Lay men who possess the age and qualifications established by decree of the conference of bishops can be admitted on a stable basis through the prescribed liturgical rite to the ministries of lector and acolyte.

Nevertheless, the conferral of these ministries does not grant them the right to obtain support or remuneration from the Church.

§2. Lay persons can fulfill the function of lector in liturgical actions by temporary designation. All lay persons can also perform the functions of commentator or cantor, or other functions, according to the norm of law.

§3. When the need of the Church warrants it and ministers are lacking, lay persons, even if they are not lectors or acolytes, can also supply certain of their duties, namely, to exercise the ministry of the word, to preside offer liturgical prayers, to confer baptism, and to distribute Holy Communion, according to the prescripts of the law.

Can. 231 §1. Lay persons who permanently or temporarily devote themselves to special service of the Church are obliged to acquire the appropriate formation required to fulfill their function properly and to carry out this function conscientiously, eagerly, and diligently.

 

[EasterJoy]

…I would certainly hope all EMsHC are commissioned by the local bishop except for emergency situations. Commissioning cannot be done by a priest.

Commissioned EMsHC are authorized to actually* touch* the Blessed Sacrament…

Emergency situations? Is living in a spread-out diocese an emergency situation, by definition? Canon law allows a bishop to give priests permission to use laypersons in these functions without any prior liturgical installation.

Look at the canon laws. For the instituted acolyte, Canon 230 §1 says “admitted on a stable basis through the prescribed liturgical rite to the ministries of lector and acolyte.” The laws immediately following that go on to describe the use of laypersons in those roles with no mention whatsoever of any liturgical installation at all. When a rite is not required, it doesn’t take an emergency to dispense with it.

Rather, I think bishops who have the practical ability to do so conduct these installations in order to promote due diligence in those properly formed, that they may always “carry out this function conscientiously, eagerly, and diligently”. That is an excellent reason to conduct a rite that is not required by law!

 

[Corki]

In way of clarification of what you’re saying:

a) Very few parishes without a seminarian in residence ever have a duly instituted acolyte at Mass. Although not uncommonly done in advance of it, liturgical institution of acolytes is usually only done in anticipation of a seminarian’s diaconal ordination.

Several dioceses have revived the office of instituted acolyte. This is a lay role, not held by a seminarian. I am fortunate to live in one of those dioceses. Many, if not most, of our larger parishes have at least one.

b) A bishop can give pastors permission to deputize other laypeople to carry out any of the functions that the law allows a layperson to do, which includes those things proper to the office of instituted acolyte. The bishop need not make the restrictions you describe, even though your bishop may have quite explicitly made that very restriction universal in his diocese, exactly as you say. IOW, restrictions on EMsHC such as you describe, though of course within the bishop’s authority, would come from the bishop rather than from restrictions existing in canon law.

.

I didn’t actually “describe” any restrictions. The only special duty that comes automatically with being an EMHC is permission to distribute Holy Communion under Extraordinary circumstances. The Bishop, of course, can expand on this but this is the essence of the role.

If a pastor licitly deputizes a layperson, that is, according to permissions he has to do so by the bishop, that permission comes from the bishop.

While that may be the case in some places, the norm everywhere I have lived is that, if the Bishop gives approval for the use of EMHCs, it is up to the priest how to chose them, train them and utilize them.

It is like being confirmed by a priest instead of a bishop because you’re confirmed at Easter Vigil. The faculty to give that permission always comes from the bishop and, if given licitly, is the same as if the bishop gave the permission himself, personally.

It is not really like Cofirmation at all. Confirmation is a Sacrament and the ordinary minister of that Sacrament is the Bishop. The commissioning of EMHCs is a purely adminitrative process. Unless the Bishop tells his priests they can’t chose thier own EMHCs and use them, there is no need to get permission from the Bishop.

Can. 230 §1. Lay men who possess the age and qualifications established by decree of the conference of bishops can be admitted on a stable basis through the prescribed liturgical rite to the ministries of lector and acolyte.

Nevertheless, the conferral of these ministries does not grant them the right to obtain support or remuneration from the Church.

No problem here. It says nothing about the Bishop being the one to admit a person to the role, only that the Bishops conference must first allow it - in my case, that’s the USCCB.

§2. Lay persons can fulfill the function of lector in liturgical actions by temporary designation. All lay persons can also perform the functions of commentator or cantor, or other functions, according to the norm of law.

Not sure what this has to do with EMHCs.

§3. When the need of the Church warrants it and ministers are lacking, lay persons, even if they are not lectors or acolytes, can also supply certain of their duties, namely, to exercise the ministry of the word, to preside offer liturgical prayers, to confer baptism, and to distribute Holy Communion, according to the prescripts of the law.

ok.

Can. 231 §1. Lay persons who permanently or temporarily devote themselves to special service of the Church are obliged to acquire the appropriate formation required to fulfill their function properly and to carry out this function conscientiously, eagerly, and diligently

But again, it does not say that this formation must come from the Bishop.

 

[Corki]

I would certainly hope all EMsHC are commissioned by the local bishop except for emergency situations. Commissioning cannot be done by a priest.

Commissioning is a bad word choice. I appologize since I used it too. RS uses the word “appointed”. I have never lived in a diocese where the Bishop had any direct contact or (name removed by moderator)ut into the appointing of EMHCs other than those who would assist at his own Masses.

Commissioned EMsHC are authorized to actually* touch* the Blessed Sacrament. That means something to me if anyone is questioning their ability to repose the Blessed Sacrament.

Actually, everyone is authorized to touch the Blessed Sacrament- at least in the US. That comes with the indult to receive in the hand. What EMHCs are authorized to do is to distribute the Blessed Sacrament.

 

[EasterJoy]

Several dioceses have revived the office of instituted acolyte. This is a lay role, not held by a seminarian. I am fortunate to live in one of those dioceses. Many, if not most, of our larger parishes have at least one.

I didn’t actually “describe” any restrictions. The only special duty that comes automatically with being an EMHC is permission to distribute Holy Communion under Extraordinary circumstances. The Bishop, of course, can expand on this but this is the essence of the role…

I learn something new every day: I didn’t know this. Our archdioces now has a growing number of permanent deacons, but as far as I know there are no instituted acolytes, except those who are preparing for later ordination as priests.

 

[Lutgardis]

The issue of lay people purifying the sacred vessels has nothing to do with Blessed Pope John Paul’s age or illness. The permission to do so had an expiration date. When the indult expired, the US Bishops requested it be extended. The CDW said “no”.

I didn’t say purification of the vessels was granted because of the age or illness of the pope. I said an indult had been granted and that it was most likely not extended by him because he was gravely ill. Pope Benedict chose not to extend the indult when he became pope.

Insofar as EMHC’s go, they are commissioned, and it is a proper term to describe it.

 

[EasterJoy]

I didn’t say purification of the vessels was granted because of the age or illness of the pope. I said an indult had been granted and that it was most likely not extended by him because he was gravely ill. Pope Benedict chose not to extend the indult when he became pope.

We were told by the deacon who trained the EMHC in our parish that there were also serious problems in some places when laypersons were doing the ritual purification, particularly since it was often done outside of Mass, without supervision by the priest. There is a serious danger of sacrilege if the purification is not done as it ought to be done.

 

[Lutgardis]

We were told by the deacon who trained the EMHC in our parish that there were also serious problems in some places when laypersons were doing the ritual purification, particularly since it was often done outside of Mass, without supervision by the priest. There is a serious danger of sacrilege if the purification is not done as it ought to be done.

I understand that this may well have been the case. I am happy with the Church’s decision either way. If an extension on the indult had been given, I would have felt very blessed and honored to take part in purifying the vessels. Since it hasn’t, I am content to defer to our priests. My desire is to please the Lord in all of it.

 

[EasterJoy]

I understand that this may well have been the case. I am happy with the Church’s decision either way. If an extension on the indult had been given, I would have felt very blessed and honored to take part in purifying the vessels. Since it hasn’t, I am content to defer to our priests. My desire is to please the Lord in all of it.

I’m with you. It’s actually the same with being a EMHC. If we get enough clergy to do it without any laypersons needed, I’d be great with that!!

 

[Jegudiel]

Commissioning is a bad word choice. I appologize since I used it too. RS uses the word “appointed”. I have never lived in a diocese where the Bishop had any direct contact or (name removed by moderator)ut into the appointing of EMHCs other than those who would assist at his own Masses.

It’s actually the correct.definitive word to use.

Actually, everyone is authorized to touch the Blessed Sacrament- at least in the US. That comes with the indult to receive in the hand. What EMHCs are authorized to do is to distribute the Blessed Sacrament.

Not from a distribution standpoint.

 

[Jegudiel]

We were told by the deacon who trained the EMHC in our parish that there were also serious problems in some places when laypersons were doing the ritual purification, particularly since it was often done outside of Mass, without supervision by the priest. There is a serious danger of sacrilege if the purification is not done as it ought to be done.

Why? This is not a difficult practice. If people cannot be trained to do it without supervision they shouldn’t be anywhere near the sacred vessels.

That said the Church’s mandate should be followed.

 

[Corki]

Not from a distribution standpoint.

I am not sure what you mean by this. It is during the distribution of Communion that any Catholic can touch the Eucharist if he/she chooses to receive in the hand.

As for EMHCs, there are many instances where the EMHCs are only allowed to minister the cup and the priest or deacon distributes the Consecrated Hosts. This is actually t norm in some countries. Those EMHCs are not allowed to touch the Blessed Sacrament - only the vessels.

There is nothing inherent in the role of EMHC that gives them special abilities regarding touching the Eucharistic species.

 

[Jegudiel]

I am not sure what you mean by this. It is during the distribution of Communion that any Catholic can touch the Eucharist if he/she chooses to receive in the hand.

As for EMHCs, there are many instances where the EMHCs are only allowed to minister the cup and the priest or deacon distributes the Consecrated Hosts.

Actually deacons are correctly ministers of the chalice…

This is actually t norm in some countries. Those EMHCs are not allowed to touch the Blessed Sacrament - only the vessels.

There is nothing inherent in the role of EMHC that gives them special abilities regarding touching the Eucharistic species.

 

[paperwight66]

As for EMHCs, there are many instances where the EMHCs are only allowed to minister the cup and the priest or deacon distributes the Consecrated Hosts. This is actually t norm in some countries. Those EMHCs are not allowed to touch the Blessed Sacrament - only the vessels.

That’s interesting. Which countries?