Someone explain to me why I can bow to and serve a graven image

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How I see it, and I’m Catholic, an image is no different than having my sister’s portrait next to my bed on my little table. I know this image is not actually my sister, from time to time I may give her photograph a kiss, but I know it’s not my sister. I have her picture there to remember a specific moment that was special to us. I keep it there to remember her when she isn’t around. The Catholic Church came up with stain glass windows, images, and statues as a way to deal with illiteracy. Most people could not read for the vast majority of human history, and the church used these to teach about an event, a dogma, a teaching, a moment in scripture, or the charism of a certain saint. The image is not Our Lord, Our Lady, or a Saint. Unless you start thinking the image has some special kind of power that derived from itself, it is in no way different than carrying a family portrait in your wallet. Images, especially icons, are loaded with symbols and meaning that are meant to teach you about the deeper truths of the Gospel and Our faith. Pretend you don’t know how to read, learn about the image, use it as a book.
Also, if I ask you to pray for me, have I sinned against Our Lord? Have I worshiped you? If I say, CampionTheChampion, I’m having a difficulty. Could you please remember to pray for me tonight? Have I broken the 1st commandment? The first people who asked Our Lady to intercede for them can be found in the Gospel of John, at the wedding feast at Cana. They had no wine and, maybe because she was a family friend, she found out and guess what? She asked Our Lord to help them. Don’t forget that He tells her it’s not His time to do this yet. To do what you ask, to begin His ministry, His way to the cross. Yet she simply gives the answer she gives to all of us “ Do whatever He tells you”.
Someone came to her for help, and what did she do? She took them to Her son and asked Him to help these people. Not only does He perform the miracle despite it not being His time to do it, but He provides the couple in trouble with such wonderful wine that People ask them why they saved the good wine for last. Our Lady is the same now that she was then. When you ask her to pray for you, she’ll treat you no different than she treated these people in the Gospel of John. She’ll take you to Him like only His mother can. She’ll tell you to do whatever He tells you, and being not only the perfect son, but the very God who created the 4th commandment, He will honor His Mother’s request. Remember that she would never ask for something that would not bring Him Glory. In the book of revelation we see the saints interceding for the people on earth, taking their prayers in the form of incense up to the throne of The Most High. Don’t worry, if you do veneration right, you can’t break the 1st commandment. If you ask Our Lady to pray for you, she will take you to Him. Being His mom, She knows how to make Him happy, how to best lead you to Him .Trust her 🙂 He did. Remember what St. Maximillian Kolbe said “ Don’t be afraid of loving The Blessed Virgin, you can never love her more than Jesus did”.
 
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How 'bout some paragraph breaks for us. Makes it easier to read. 😛
 
CampionTheChampion said:
I walk into an eastern rite chapel, bow before an icon of the Theotokos and kiss it.

I’ve just bowed to and served a graven image.

How have I not broken the 1st commandment?
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It is not adoration but veneration that you describe, so it is not contrary to the commandment.

Modern Catholic Dictionary (Fr. John Hardon), Worship
Acknowledgment of another’s worth, dignity, or superior position. In religion, worship is given either to God, and then it is adoration, or to the angels and saints, and it is called veneration.

Divine worship actually includes three principal acts, namely
  • adoration (or the recognition of God’s infinite perfection),
  • prayer or the asking for divine help, and
  • sacrifice or the offering of something precious to God.
Worship as veneration also has three principal forms, whereby the angels and saints are
  • honored for their sanctity,
  • asked to intercede before the divine Majesty, and
  • imitated in their love and service of God.
(Etym. Old English weorthscipe, honor, dignity, reverence: weorth, worth +ship.)
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redbetta said:
It is just human nature to venerate, salute, or show affection towards things that represent something dear to us.
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Is it all right to venerate, salute, bow down and show affection towards a golden calf which represents a source of food and a symbol of life and good health. It is an animal which does not take much from the earth, as all it ever eats is water and grass, but it gives back much more to humans
 
I don’t know of an instance in which you both venerate and show affection to the same thing, but, anyway, it is all about the intention of the act.

If you are giving praise that rightly belongs to God to something that is not God, whether it is a person or object or whatever, then it is wrong. But, if it’s something like saluting a national symbol or showing affection towards a representation of a loved one, then it’s fine.
 
I’m a lawyer. When I’m in court tomorrow you betcha I’ll be bowing to the judge when he or she enters the courtroon. I won’t, of course, be worshipping him or her.
 
This was dealt with during the council in 787. Iconoclasm. God became flesh so it is possible to make a statue or icon of Christ and other saints for example.

During the reformation in 16-hundreds the Bible was read as Sola Scriptura and images in churches were taken away and destroyed and painted walls were whitewashed. Again when the baptist/pentecostal movement started in 18-1900s the same thing happened. Everyone starting their own thing again and again and again. Even today when new Christian communities start they go back to no images of God like in the Jewish tradition.
 
Bowing and kissing are not exclusively gestures of divine worship (adoration) reserved for the one true God but can also be gestures of honor (veneration) permitted to created beings and things. So, in order to break the First Commandment, you must combine such exterior gestures with the intention of offering divine worship (adoration) to something or someone other than the one true God. What was your intention?
 
Last night before I went to bed, I prayed for my elderly father. While I did this, I looked at a photograph of him, I got down on my knees and prayed. After that prayer, I gave the photograph a kiss.

Did I worship the picture or do I simply love and miss my relative?

If we were royalty long ago, I might have a statue of my father instead of a photograph.

The statues, icons, stained glass, are simply family photos. Those Saints represented are our family members.
 
CampionTheChampion said:
Well even if I didn’t serve it…I still bowed to it. Wouldn’t that still be breaking the 1st commandment?
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No. Bowing isn’t serving. For example, sometimes in the Bible, angels rebuke men for bowing to them. One instance would be Revelation 22:8-9

"I John am he who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me; but he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brethren the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.”

Here, John himself admits that he desired to worship the angel- this is why he is reproached by the angel. However, we can see that it wasn’t the mere act of bowing down to them (and this would apply to anyone or anything else) in Genesis 19:1-2.

“The two angels came to Sodom in the evening; and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them, and bowed himself with his face to the earth, and said, “My lords, turn aside, I pray you, to your servant’s house and spend the night, and wash your feet; then you may rise up early and go on your way.” They said, “No; we will spend the night in the street.””

Again: he bowed to angels, but was not told what he had done was wrong. That’s because worship wasn’t his intention.
 
First of all, do you view Mary as some God to make an idol of? How is this a graven image?
Secondly, are you worshipping it?
What is worship? Is it merely bowing?
 
Doesn’t Our Lady of Fatima say the people offended her in her statues? Does this imply an Orthodox understanding?
 
No, you didn’t worship it did you? Did you expect the statue to come to life and serve you?
Nope.
A representation is a representation. Got pictures in your house? Are you holding your grandmother’s spirit captive in a frame?
Nope.
 
AlNg said:
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redbetta:
It is just human nature to venerate, salute, or show affection towards things that represent something dear to us.
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Is it all right to venerate, salute, bow down and show affection towards a golden calf which represents a source of food and a symbol of life and good health. It is an animal which does not take much from the earth, as all it ever eats is water and grass, but it gives back much more to humans
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No, but I wouldn’t do it for a bird, a television, a car or a chair either.

Human beings are unique in being made in God’s image and likeness. Further, God uniquely honoured humankind among all creation by becoming one of us and dying to save us.

For these reasons humans can and ought be accorded a higher level of respect than other creatures.
 
Not necessarily. Think of it this way. If someone was to stomp and spit on the flag of your country, would view it as offensive to the country as a whole? In the Catholic understanding, the flag represents the country. They disrespect the idea of the country. In the Orthodox view, ideas and nonphysical realities are more important than the physical objects, so in trampling the flag, they are not trampling a piece of cloth and the idea of the country, but rather trampling upon every person, place, and ideal which make up that country individually. The flag is the country. In both views, the action is offensive, just in slightly different ways.

This is an intellectual division and the spiritual reality is most likely somewhere in between, but the different reasonings color the nuances of the two theologies. To Catholics, the immediate and individual hold precedence over an ideal: i.e. A statue in the physical form of Mary. To Orthodox Christians, the ideal holds precedence over immediate and individual: i.e. Mary in the physical form of a statue.
 
Kei said:
Doesn’t Our Lady of Fatima say the people offended her in her statues? Does this imply an Orthodox understanding?
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Orthodox generally do not use statues, although there are some exceptions due to western influence. The tradition is to use icons which are thought to be acceptable since they are not graven (3D) images.
 
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