Someone Please Explain this to me!

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holdencaulfield

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First of all, I am Roman Catholic, and believe in Transubstantiation.

A Baptist used this one against this. How do I explain this? I don’t want to start a thread on this, because I know that Transubstantiation is true, I just want someone to explain this to me.

“I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus.” (Revelations 17:6)
 
We don’t drink the blood of the Saints. Nor do we drink the blood of those who testify to Jesus.

We drink Jesus’ blood.

You don’t have to do anything here, really. Surely, they have to establish how the “blood of the Saints” is the same thing as the “blood of Jesus.”

And then ask them from their probably quite jumbled link where it is in the bible they got their link and by what authority did they just make that interpretation of the bible?

You don’t really have to do much. Use the oppurtunity to prod a few holes in their beliefs - you don’t always have to be in the defensive. Pick an issue like “Sola Scriptura”, look around Catholic answers for some good material and “Go get 'em!”

In Christ,

JD
 
Many Protestants believe that “Revelation” is about the future. They believe that the anti-Christ is the Catholic Church. There is no basis for this belief. This is a good article on this subject… Also the Douay-Rhiems on line is a great source.

drbo.org/

carl-olson.com/articles/bkrevelation_thisrock.html

“Martin Luther, John Calvin, and other Reformation leaders accepted the Augustinian view of the end times, but with one distinct difference: they identified the papacy as the Antichrist and the Catholic Church as the Whore of Babylon. The Turks, seen as the Antichrist by earlier generations, were identified as Gog and Magog, the two mysterious countries found in Revelation 20:8.”
 
Johndigger said:
We don’t drink the blood of the Saints. Nor do we drink the blood of those who testify to Jesus.

We drink Jesus’ blood.

You don’t have to do anything here, really. Surely, they have to establish how the “blood of the Saints” is the same thing as the “blood of Jesus.”

And then ask them from their probably quite jumbled link where it is in the bible they got their link and by what authority did they just make that interpretation of the bible?

You don’t really have to do much. Use the oppurtunity to prod a few holes in their beliefs - you don’t always have to be in the defensive. Pick an issue like “Sola Scriptura”, look around Catholic answers for some good material and “Go get 'em!”

In Christ,

JD
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Thanks, yes I know that, I countered it saying that it literally meant Rome who was killing saints at the time. So you don’t think that Christ’s Blood counts under this?
 
holdencaulfield said:
First of all, I am Roman Catholic, and believe in Transubstantiation.

A Baptist used this one against this. How do I explain this? I don’t want to start a thread on this, because I know that Transubstantiation is true, I just want someone to explain this to me.

“I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus.” (Revelations 17:6)
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It has noting to do with the Eucharist. It she dealing with her sinking into a drunken like state from her whoring, murdering, udder sinfulness. Like the saying drunk with power.
 
oneGODoneCHURCH said:
It has noting to do with the Eucharist. It she dealing with her sinking into a drunken like state from her whoring, murdering, udder sinfulness. Like the saying drunk with power.
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Oh yes that counts too. And besides I don’t think they ate Christians in Rome.
 
holdencaulfield said:
Thanks, yes I know that, I countered it saying that it literally meant Rome who was killing saints at the time. So you don’t think that Christ’s Blood counts under this?
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If it says “Saint’s blood” then it would probably be a good idea to interpret it as “Saint’s blood.”

It says “Saint’s blood” not “Jesus’ blood” to say that the two are exactly the same thing, is ludicrous.

JD
 
Johndigger said:
If it says “Saint’s blood” then it would probably be a good idea to interpret it as “Saint’s blood.”

It says “Saint’s blood” not “Jesus’ blood” to say that the two are exactly the same thing, is ludicrous.

JD
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Yes, ok. I was just trying to clear things up. I don’t believe in that I was just wondering.
 
holdencaulfield said:
Yes, ok. I was just trying to clear things up. I don’t believe in that I was just wondering.
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I know you don’t believe it, you, no doubt are a rational human being and a Catholic that is loyal to the Church of Jesus Christ. 🙂

JD
 
holdencaulfield said:
“I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus.” (Revelations 17:6)
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I don’t understand. Catholics don’t do this. Can you explain what he thinks this means?
 
holdencaulfield said:
First of all, I am Roman Catholic, and believe in Transubstantiation.

A Baptist used this one against this. How do I explain this? I don’t want to start a thread on this, because I know that Transubstantiation is true, I just want someone to explain this to me.

“I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus.” (Revelations 17:6)
Click to expand...
Holden,
I’m sure everyone knows this but I’ll list it anyway. If the “Baptist” thinks we shouldn’t drink Jesus’ blood cite this passage, it is very clear cut and Christ uses very clear words. JOHN 6:31-71, here are the relevant verses:
.54 Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen, I say unto you: except you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you…55 He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day…56 For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed… 57 He that eateth my flesh and **drinketh my blood abideth in me: and I in him.
**
This should prove that we are very much supposed to Drink the Blood of Christ.
If your “Baptist” friend says that these words are figurative, then you quote verses 60-71. These verses show that all who did not believe this were scandalized by it. Why would someone be scandalized by Christ’s words if they weren’t literal? The answer is, the words were literal. In fact this passage shows who the True Believers are (The 11 Apostles), because even though our Lord’s words seem to suggest cannibalism, they were ready to have faith in anything He said. All the rest of Jesus’ disciples left Him.
Jim
 
jim28 said:
If your “Baptist” friend says that these words are figurative, then you quote verses 60-71. These verses show that all who did not believe this were scandalized by it. Why would someone be scandalized by Christ’s words if they weren’t literal? The answer is, the words were literal. In fact this passage shows who the True Believers are (The 11 Apostles), because even though our Lord’s words seem to suggest cannibalism, they were ready to have faith in anything He said. All the rest of Jesus’ disciples left Him.
Jim
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Nice, Thanks
 
As a former Baptist (preacher’s kid even), my return question would be, "How can anyone accept a mere symbol of communion with Christ when He was so clear about “this is my blood, this is my body.” I had a lifetime of “mere symbols” being given in exchange for Real Communion with Christ. I can no longer understand how a person canNOT believe in Transubstantiation. Baptists took what was real and reduced it and sold it to its members as a mere symbol. A mere symbol makes a mockery, a sacrilege of Christ’s original intent. A mere symbol now offends me (but privately of course – my words will not change them, only pray that the Holy Spirit will lead them to the Church).

Some protestants are so offended by the Church. It’s their cause celeb to attack it…but I think I remember He said, “The gates of hell will not prevail against it.” I find huge comfort in that. Also makes me think maybe it offends them because they just don’t understand, it’s like they have wool over their eyes.

Every time our belief in Christ’s church is attacked, first and always pray for unity. If God could lead me to his church after my anti-Catholic childhood indoctrination, there is hope for all protestants.

“Lord, we pray all believers would be led to your Church.”
 
The Bible mentions cups in a variety of connections. The following texts are pretty representative (the list is incomplete):

Judgement on persons generally
  • Psa 11:6 Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: [this shall be] the portion of their cup
    Judgement on the whole earth (or land ?)
  • Psa 75:8 For in the hand of the LORD [there is] a cup, and the wine is red; it is full of mixture; and he poureth out of the same: but the dregs thereof, all the wicked of the earth shall wring [them] out, [and] drink [them].
    On Jerusalem
  • Isa 51:17 Awake, awake, stand up, O Jerusalem, which hast drunk at the hand of the LORD the cup of his fury; thou hast drunken the dregs of the cup of trembling, [and] wrung [them] out.
    On Babylon
  • Jer 51:7 Babylon [hath been] a golden cup in the LORD’S hand, that made all the earth drunken: the nations have drunken of her wine; therefore the nations are mad.
    As metaphor for abundance
  • Psa 23:5 Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.
    A Gospel-saying
  • Mat 10:42 And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold [water] only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.
    Last Supper - the Institution-Narrative & the meaning of the cup
  • Mat 26:27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave [it] to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
  • Luk 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup [is] the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.
    As metaphor for the sufferings of the Passion
  • Mat 26:42 He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.
  • Jhn 18:11 Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?
The cup of martyrdom offered to James and John
  • Mar 10:38 But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?
  • Mar 10:39 And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized:
    Two Eucharistic references from Corinth
  • 1Cr 10:16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
  • 1Cr 10:21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord’s table, and of the table of devils
    All four references in Revelation
  • Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
  • Rev 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
  • Rev 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
  • Rev 18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
…more…]
 
**
holdencaulfield said:
First of all, I am Roman Catholic, and believe in Transubstantiation.
Click to expand...
**
A Baptist used this one against this. How do I explain this? I don’t want to start a thread on this, because I know that Transubstantiation is true, I just want someone to explain this to me.
"I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus." (Revelations 17:6)## IOW, Rev. 17. 4 recalls a wide variety of texts, even in the OT. The cup in this passage is at once:
  • the cup of God’s judgement
    • specifically, of judgement on Babylon
  • a demonic counterpart to the “cup of the wrath of JHWH” drained by Jesus (this is one of the cups from the Passover liturgy)
  • a demonic parody of the Eucharist
  • the cup of wine that makes the nations stagger
  • a counterpart of the drink at the eschatological Messianic Banquet, the “wedding-feast of the Lamb”
  • the drink which is the blood of the saints, as in Matthew 23:
    =====
  • Mat 23:33 [Ye] serpents, [ye] generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
  • Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and [some] of them ye shall kill and crucify; and [some] of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute [them] from city to city:
  • Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
  • Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
  • Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!
  • Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
    =====
So the imagery recalls a number of Biblical motifs. Also worth mentioning:
  • Psa 104:14 He causeth the grass to grow for the cattle, and herb for the service of man: that he may bring forth food out of the earth;
  • Psa 104:15 And wine [that] maketh glad the heart of man, [and] oil to make [his] face to shine, and bread [which] strengtheneth man’s heart.
    The ambiguity of wine’s effects, & its many uses, allow the Biblical authors to make very fruitful use of it as a theme. As to the “mystery” in Rev. 17.5 - “mystery” occurs 27 times in the NT, in a good sense, with three exceptions:
  • 2 Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way. Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead [was] a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
  • Rev 17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.
    Usually, “mystery” refers to the purpose of God now made manifest in Jesus Christ:
  • Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables:
  • Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began
    & compare:
  • Mat 13:33-35 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
  • All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
  • That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
    God has His mystery - the devil has its “mystery”. John is very fond of references to Baptism, the Eucharist, & the Spirit, in the gospel & in Revelation. BtG is mysterious, because the Gospel is mysterious. BtG seems to be a sort of “anti-Kingdom of God”, “nourished” (if that’s the word) by an anti-Eucharist, having as her foundation not Christ & His Apostles, but the many-headed beast. Instead of Baptism, BtG “sits on” waters: & water-imagery here represents chaos.
 
The woman drunk on the blood of the saints is indicative of one who has killed so many that he/she is drunk with it.
This woman is not Mary. She is an evil woman. And as was stated before this verse does not refer to the Eucharist or Christ.
🤷 If your Baptist friend thinks it is then 1) he’s mistaken. 2) He needs to read a better commentary on the Revelations of St John.
 
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