Something Bad That Jesus Did?

[Ben_Masada]

Yesterday I was asked if I could think of anything bad that Jesus could have ever done. I thought for a while and the following came to my mind:

Yes, there is indeed something Jesus did, which I wish he had not done, because it does not represent well the People he belonged to.

Once a Gentile Canaanite mother was crying after him, asking for her daughter to be cured, and Jesus would not give a damn to her. His disciples told him to do something for that woman or discard her, because she was making them go crazy with her non-stop crying.

What did Jesus say? I haven’t come for Gentiles but ONLY for the House of Israel. Then, kept on going and the woman kept on crying and following them.

When he couldn’t take it any longer, he stopped and told her something like this: Hey, listen, what do you want from me? To cure my daughter Master. No way, I cannot take of the food of the children and throw it unto the dogs.

He meant the Jews for the children, and the Gentiles for the dogs. But only after the woman understood and recognized her condition of dog, by saying that the dogs also feed from the crumbles that fall from the table of the children, Jesus saw that he would never get rid of that woman. So, he changed his mind and cured her daughter. Then, to erase a little the impression left on her for being forced to recognize her doggy condition, he mentioned something about her strong faith and left.

That was terrible, if we can imagine what that poor woman went through till she got what she wanted. The text is in Matthew 15:21-28.

Ben:

 

[patrick457]

Yesterday I was asked if I could think of anything bad that Jesus could have ever done. I thought for a while and the following came to my mind:

Yes, there is indeed something Jesus did, which I wish he had not done, because it does not represent well the People he belonged to.

Once a Gentile Canaanite mother was crying after him, asking for her daughter to be cured, and Jesus would not give a damn to her. His disciples told him to do something for that woman or discard her, because she was making them go crazy with her non-stop crying.

What did Jesus say? I haven’t come for Gentiles but ONLY for the House of Israel. Then, kept on going and the woman kept on crying and following them.

When he couldn’t take it any longer, he stopped and told her something like this: Hey, listen, what do you want from me? To cure my daughter Master. No way, I cannot take of the food of the children and throw it unto the dogs.

He meant the Jews for the children, and the Gentiles for the dogs. But only after the woman understood and recognized her condition of dog, by saying that the dogs also feed from the crumbles that fall from the table of the children, Jesus saw that he would never get rid of that woman. So, he changed his mind and cured her daughter. Then, to erase a little the impression left on her for being forced to recognize her doggy condition, he mentioned something about her strong faith and left.

That was terrible, if we can imagine what that poor woman went through till she got what she wanted. The text is in Matthew 15:21-28.

Ben:

That reminds me. The word used in the original Greek here is kynaria, which refers not to the wild and unkempt street dogs, but to small dogs taken in as house pets (this, the diminutive form of the word kyōn “dog” originally referred to puppies or little dogs, then later extended to lap dogs). It is thus not a derogatory term per se, but may have been intended to indicate the privileged position of the Jews: the children get to eat before the pets do.

Another interesting thing is Jesus uses the word teknon (biological children) when referring to the “children’s bread,” while the woman used the word paidion, a more inclusive word implying both ‘children’ and ‘servants’.

And behold, a woman of Canaan came from that region and cried out to Him, saying, “Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David! My daughter is horribly demon–possessed.” But He did not answer her a word. And His disciples asked him, saying, “Send her away, because she keeps on crying out after us.” And answering, He said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” And she bowed down to him, saying, “Lord, help me!”

And answering, He said, “It is not right to take the bread of the children and throw it to the house dogs.” And she said, “Yes, Lord, but even the house dogs eat the crumbs which fall from the table of their master.” Then answering, Jesus said to her, “Woman, great is your faith! Let what you want be done for you.” And her daughter was healed from that hour.

-Matthew 15:22-28

From there He arose and went to the borders of Tyre [and Sidon]. And He entered a house and did not want anyone to know, but He could not be hidden. Instead, immediately a woman after hearing about Him, whose young daughter of her had an unclean spirit, came and fell at His feet (but the woman was a Greek, of the Syrophoenician race). And she begged Him to cast the demon out of her daughter.

And He was saying to her, “Let the children be satisfied first because it is not proper to take the bread of the children and to throw it to the house dogs (kynaria).” And she retorted and says to Him, “Yes, Lord, but even the house dogs under the table eat from the crumbs of the children.” And He said to her, “Because of your word, go; the demon has left your daughter.” And going away to her house, she found the child lying on the bed and the demon having left.

-Mark 7:27-30

The woman does not object the lower place that Jesus’ saying assumes for the Gentiles and even accepts the epithet ‘dog’, but insists that the dogs, too, must have their day. The mission of the Messiah, while it must of course begin with Israel, cannot be always confined there. She is bold enough to pursue her request: even the crumbs from the table would suffice.

 

[wina]

Yesterday I was asked if I could think of anything bad that Jesus could have ever done. I thought for a while and the following came to my mind:

Yes, there is indeed something Jesus did, which I wish he had not done, because it does not represent well the People he belonged to.

Once a Gentile Canaanite mother was crying after him, asking for her daughter to be cured, and Jesus would not give a damn to her. His disciples told him to do something for that woman or discard her, because she was making them go crazy with her non-stop crying.

What did Jesus say? I haven’t come for Gentiles but ONLY for the House of Israel. Then, kept on going and the woman kept on crying and following them.

When he couldn’t take it any longer, he stopped and told her something like this: Hey, listen, what do you want from me? To cure my daughter Master. No way, I cannot take of the food of the children and throw it unto the dogs.

He meant the Jews for the children, and the Gentiles for the dogs. But only after the woman understood and recognized her condition of dog, by saying that the dogs also feed from the crumbles that fall from the table of the children, Jesus saw that he would never get rid of that woman. So, he changed his mind and cured her daughter. Then, to erase a little the impression left on her for being forced to recognize her doggy condition, he mentioned something about her strong faith and left.

That was terrible, if we can imagine what that poor woman went through till she got what she wanted. The text is in Matthew 15:21-28.

Ben:

well, in my opinion, Jesus tests her faith because after that Jesus said “O woman great is your faith. Let it be done for you as you wish.” And as human, our faith will always be tested.

 

[victus]

You’re kidding right?

 

[ncgolf]

That was terrible, if we can imagine what that poor woman went through till she got what she wanted. The text is in Matthew 15:21-28.

Ben:

In a word persistence … God does not always answer in the timeframe we want … does that mean stop after a request is not granted … no ask again and again and again

This woman persisted in her request … and it was granted.

 

[Cbus]

I was troubled by this passage until I heard a priest explain it in a homily recently. According to this priest, Jesus was using this situation to teach his disciples a lesson on the absurdity of prejudice and bias. He never considered her to be a dog or less of a person than the Jews. He feigned bigotry to demonstrate its ugliness and then went on to show who he was really sent for–not people bound to God on the basis of their ethnic heritage but on the basis of their faith.

 

[thistle]

Yesterday I was asked if I could think of anything bad that Jesus could have ever done. I thought for a while and the following came to my mind:

Yes, there is indeed something Jesus did, which I wish he had not done, because it does not represent well the People he belonged to.

Once a Gentile Canaanite mother was crying after him, asking for her daughter to be cured, and **Jesus would not give a damn to her. **His disciples told him to do something for that woman or discard her, because she was making them go crazy with her non-stop crying.

What did Jesus say? I haven’t come for Gentiles but ONLY for the House of Israel. Then, kept on going and the woman kept on crying and following them.

When he couldn’t take it any longer, he stopped and told her something like this: Hey, listen, what do you want from me? To cure my daughter Master. No way, I cannot take of the food of the children and throw it unto the dogs.

He meant the Jews for the children, and the Gentiles for the dogs. But only after the woman understood and recognized her condition of dog, by saying that the dogs also feed from the crumbles that fall from the table of the children, Jesus saw that he would never get rid of that woman. So, he changed his mind and cured her daughter. Then, to erase a little the impression left on her for being forced to recognize her doggy condition, he mentioned something about her strong faith and left.

That was terrible, if we can imagine what that poor woman went through till she got what she wanted. The text is in Matthew 15:21-28.

Ben:

You should be banned from these forums for blasphemous remarks like that.

 

[Mintaka]

This just goes to show that we do need Church tradition to explain the Bible. Here’s someone who read the story, but didn’t understand the kind of story it was.

This is a “clever answer” story. Jesus, like a lot of rabbis, loved to teach by asking questions or getting people to make comebacks. He knew that this woman was clever and would be able to make clever comebacks, so Jesus got her to argue with him.

There are other “clever answer” stories in the Bible, but Jesus usually ends them by trumping the clever or right answer to make the person realize that he needs to do what he says, or to do more than that.

In this case, Jesus was evidently so pleased by the woman and her answer that he felt no need to use her answer to tell her that she wasn’t living right or doing enough. He set her up as a good example, instead.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

It’s interesting that you of all people would find that to be the “bad” thing that Jesus did!

Jesus as the Messiah, did come specifically to the JEWS! While He was in his public ministry he even instructed his disciples to avoid the Samaritan towns. Ultimately, of course, His Apostles were appointed the task of taking the Gospel to the Gentiles. The Gentiles were always within God’s plan, but not generally in Jesus’ ministry. There were exceptions of course, as you have pointed out. But there was no back pedaling or spin in his remark about her strong Faith as you seem to imply.

But you have rather proved the point when Jesus at another time said in Matt 11:16 :

16 But whereunto shall I esteem this generation to be like? It is like to children sitting in the market place. 17 Who crying to their companions say: We have piped to you, and you have not danced: we have lamented, and you have not mourned.

Basically you’re complaining that Jesus Christ was not really Christian enough for you!

 

[NotWorthy]

I was troubled by this passage until I heard a priest explain it in a homily recently. According to this priest, Jesus was using this situation to teach his disciples a lesson on the absurdity of prejudice and bias. He never considered her to be a dog or less of a person than the Jews. He feigned bigotry to demonstrate its ugliness and then went on to show who he was really sent for–not people bound to God on the basis of their ethnic heritage but on the basis of their faith.

Yes, Jesus is using this to teach His disciples. He intended all along to help this woman, but wanted to show His Disciples what happens when we come to Jesus in Faith.

Jesus had always taught, “I came first for the Jews, and then the Gentiles”.

BTW, I believe this is one of the only times I’ve seen a woman stand “toe to toe” with Jesus and not come out looking like a fool.

 

[NotWorthy]

You should be banned from these forums for blasphemous remarks like that.

Aw, let Ben be. Although I doubt the premise,
“Yesterday I was asked if I could think of anything bad that Jesus could have ever done. I thought for a while and the following came to my mind: :newidea:”,
he’s only raising questions that others have on their minds.

 

[Nepenthe]

Well, cursing that poor little fig tree was not one of his better days.

But that makes him and the stories about him ring more human to me, and not ONLY an all-wise-and powerful deity, which I find greatly endearing. Was he not, indeed, both 100%a god and 100% a mortal man according to your teachings?

 

[cheeto1]

You should be banned from these forums for blasphemous remarks like that.

Do you really just want to listen to yourself talk with just
people who agree with you all the time?

“I think Jesus can never be wrong or bad”
“me too”
“me too”
“Thistle you are so right, I agree”
“Thistle you are a genius, because you agree with me!”
“We are so blessed in our Catholic faith, I agree too”
“Let’s ban everyone who disagrees with us. They just
have their own agenda, they are not even trying to agree with
us!”

…but… I wouldn’t mind if people got banned for swearing, I just
don’t like to read swearing, I know God doesn’t like it. I know
that it is possible to express you honest opinion without it.

My opinion: I have taken note of that woman, and the fig tree.
And even that he let the apostles suffer needlessly in a storm
while He slept in the boat. I have decided that the lessons He
was teaching were more kind than the seemingly unkind actions,
like His temper in the temple, and that time He wouldn’t explain
what eating His body and drinking His blood meant, but let every
one go away in disgust, thinking He wanted them to start eating
Him. Even if we don’t always understand, we can trust that
anything Jesus ever said or did was for our own good. He always
said to be humble…

 

[NotWorthy]

Well, cursing that poor little fig tree was not one of his better days.

But that makes him and the stories about him ring more human to me, and not ONLY an all-wise-and powerful deity, which I find greatly endearing. Was he not, indeed, both 100%a god and 100% a mortal man according to your teachings?

Are you totally ignoring the lesson of the fig tree? After all, this was the week of the Passover and that fig tree wouldn’t be producing fruit yet. Surely the Son of God would know that. This tells you there is something more than what you see in the story.

In the Old Testament, Israel was often depicted as a fig tree. Because Jesus couldn’t find any fruit on the tree, he let it wither and die. In other words, Israel’s Judaism was not producing any spiritual fruit in Jesus’ day. Hence, similar to replacing the tenants in the parable of the wicked tenants, its time to plant another tree.

 

[Christy_Beth]

Jesus may have seemed to do bad things. But it must be remembered that He was God incarnate. The Word made flesh. Yes, he tested the one woman’s faith, showing that it wasn’t just the jews that would gain salvation through Him.

As far as “eating” His flesh and “drinking” His blood, He never said anything about it being a symbolic, or a representation, type thing. There are other areas where we are told that we are to eat His flesh and drink His blood in order to gain salvation. We may not understand it, but we don’t have to. We are asked to accept this out of faith.

Also, His “temper” in the temple wasn’t a rash act of anger. The money changers and those who sold sacrificial animals were basically robbing the people for a profit. And this was being done in God’s temple. Do you really expect Him to turn a blind eye to that? Basically, these people were ripping off those who came to make a sacrifice. Did they need to do it twice? First to the money changers and those selling “clean” animals for sacrifice. They were doing it not to make sure everything was done properly, but to make a profit for themselves. They weren’t thinking about God, only about the money.

I suppose a “bad” spin could be made out of everything Jesus did. But that shouldn’t be the point made here.

Oh, before I forget again, there’s the bit about the fig tree. Did He curse it out of anger? If I understand it properly, He already knew that it wasn’t bearing any fruit. It was another lesson for His apostles, and us. We are to bear fruit if we are to call ourselves christians.

 

[cheeto1]

And then there’s all that name-calling He did to the “poor little”
Pharisees. And when He sent the apostles out 2 by 2, they
had nothing, not even a spare tunic. I heard a tunic was like
underwear back then. They must have smelled pretty bad by
the time that trip was over! How could they wash the only set
of clothes they had in privacy while they were visiting?
Then there’s “give to the man who begs from you”, is that fair?
And “love your enemies, be kind to those who hate you, turn the other cheek.” Isn’t that mean to give us unpleasant things to do?
How about, “do not give what is holy to the dogs, or cast your
pearls before the swine?” I am sure He is speaking of people here. I even heard a saint once say, after a mule threw her in the mud, “Lord, if this is how you treat your friends, I see why you have so few of them!”.

There are so many things that could be seen as “bad”, but we
say with the apostles: Lord, to whom can we go? You have the
words of everlasting life.

 

[Randy_Carson]

You should be banned from these forums for blasphemous remarks like that.

What did Ben Masada say that was blasphemous?

He has given a reasonably accurate account of this incident from the gospels…

 

[Elizabeth502]

What did Ben Masada say that was blasphemous?

Perhaps not on this thread. (Although saying Jesus “didn’t give a damn” is pretty strong.)

On other threads, such as ‘writing in the sand,’ he called Jesus a sinner just like the rest of humanity.

OTOH, I do not call for Ben being banned, but merely corrected and enlightened with more comprehensive and less prejudiced ‘exegesis’ than he is selectively employing.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Perhaps not on this thread. (Although saying Jesus “didn’t give a damn” is pretty strong.)

On other threads, such as ‘writing in the sand,’ he called Jesus a sinner just like the rest of humanity.

OTOH, I do not call for Ben being banned, but merely corrected and enlightened with more comprehensive and less prejudiced ‘exegesis’ than he is selectively employing.

I can’t believe my eyes when I read this above. Where is the sense of scholarship in Catholic believers? How can Catholics be that fragile?

Ben:

 

[Ben_Masada]

And then there’s all that name-calling He did to the “poor little”
Pharisees. And when He sent the apostles out 2 by 2, they
had nothing, not even a spare tunic. I heard a tunic was like
underwear back then. They must have smelled pretty bad by
the time that trip was over! How could they wash the only set
of clothes they had in privacy while they were visiting?
Then there’s “give to the man who begs from you”, is that fair?
And “love your enemies, be kind to those who hate you, turn the other cheek.” Isn’t that mean to give us unpleasant things to do?
How about, “do not give what is holy to the dogs, or cast your
pearls before the swine?” I am sure He is speaking of people here. I even heard a saint once say, after a mule threw her in the mud, “Lord, if this is how you treat your friends, I see why you have so few of them!”.

There are so many things that could be seen as “bad”, but we
say with the apostles: Lord, to whom can we go? You have the
words of everlasting life.

If the Apostles really said that Jesus had the words of everlasting life, why would Jesus forbid them not to take those words of everlasting life to the Gentiles, and much less to the Samaritans? It’s in Matthew 10:6. Can you explain it to me? I would appreciate.

Ben: