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rotlex
Guest
How very Christian like of you.
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AmbroseSJ
Guest
Now we finally arrive at your first principle. This is something that you have no doubt of, I am guessing. But still, isn’t the fact that there were prophecies in the book of Daniel, and very many other prophecies respecting the time and place and character of the Messiah, that really don’t correspond to your concept a little troubling? Wasn’t it odd that 2nd temple Jews were practically in a fever pitch with expectations of the Messiah due to these prophecies? Can modern Israel with no temple and no sacrifice really be the one Isaiah was speaking of as the Messiah?
BTW, for the record, I used the word “Palestine” in my previous post because Judea was too restrictive and Israel was less descriptive of the area I meant than the traditional concept of Palestine, which takes in more area than existed in 2nd Temple Israel of the 1st century, (or now for that matter.) I didn’t mean to offend
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NotWorthy
Guest
Too Late. You might as well face up to the fact that you are officially an anti-semite!BTW, for the record, I used the word “Palestine” in my previous post because Judea was too restrictive and Israel was less descriptive of the area I meant than the traditional concept of Palestine, which takes in more area than existed in 2nd Temple Israel of the 1st century, (or now for that matter.) I didn’t mean to offend
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bengland
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I’m trying to understand the method of Ben’s conversation. Are you saying you will accept a quote from the Gospel accounts that Jesus told His disciples to preach to the Gentiles (demanding a specific one verse quote with specific wording), but you reject the Gospel accounts as later fabrications? This seems to be a bit too convenient. You can accept or reject individual verses based upon your own interpretation? Maybe I am not understanding you correctly.
If you reject the Gospels I don’t see how this conversation can continue along these lines. You say that Mary being a Virgin is Greek Mythology, but the Gospel According to St Luke, Chapter 1, which insists that she is a virgin and her conception is by the Holy Spirit and which uses phrases that link the blessed Virgin to the Ark of the Covenant in 2 Samuel 6. So you reject the Gospel According to St Luke? Do you reject the Gospel According to St Matthew where he refers to Isaiah 7:14 regarding Mary’s virginity?
Do you accept the Gospel According to St Matthew ch. 28 where Jesus says “Going therefore, teach ye all nations: baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. And behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.” Who are “all nations”?
If you reject the Gospels I don’t see how this conversation can continue along these lines. You say that Mary being a Virgin is Greek Mythology, but the Gospel According to St Luke, Chapter 1, which insists that she is a virgin and her conception is by the Holy Spirit and which uses phrases that link the blessed Virgin to the Ark of the Covenant in 2 Samuel 6. So you reject the Gospel According to St Luke? Do you reject the Gospel According to St Matthew where he refers to Isaiah 7:14 regarding Mary’s virginity?
Do you accept the Gospel According to St Matthew ch. 28 where Jesus says “Going therefore, teach ye all nations: baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. And behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.” Who are “all nations”?
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NotWorthy
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cheeto1
Guest
Thank you for all the things that you said, sharing you beliefs, I’m grateful. Some things are hard to understand.
You say that you do not believe in the gospel of Mark. Do you
believe in any of the gospels? If not, then how can we talk about
Jesus? Could you share your source of belief that Jesus is a
real person?
Thank you for coming here today.
You say that you do not believe in the gospel of Mark. Do you
believe in any of the gospels? If not, then how can we talk about
Jesus? Could you share your source of belief that Jesus is a
real person?
Thank you for coming here today.
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Ben_Masada
Guest
You are welcome! I believe in 20 percent of the Christian NT. I mean, 20 percent that really came our of Jesus and about him. Regarding your last question, I could prove to you that even yourself do not believe that Jesus is a real person. In my case, he is not, because he is dead. But I believe that he was a real person two thousand years ago. In your case, how could he be a person if he is not on earth?
Ben:
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Ben_Masada
Guest
Ben: Congratulations pal for your insight on this one. I had an agenda when I put out that proposition. I wouldn’t have done it if I was not well-acquainted with your Bible. I knew that there is no such a statement. A Jew in his healthy mind would not build such a trap for himself.
Ben: Listen, we are talking about a Jewish lady. There is no such a thing as virgin birth in Judaism. Therefore, what I said remains good. I wouldn’t be here disturbing your peace if you had your Hellenistic religion without inserting Greek innovations into Judaism. I hope you understand my point. Mine is only a small voice in favor of the faith of Jesus which was Judaism. For example, II Samuel 6 and Isaiah 7:14 don’t have anything to do with virgin birth or with Mary or Jesus for thatmatter, but on the basis of assumptions.The virgin in Isaiah 7:14 is Israel according to Amos 5:2, and the son born of her is Judah, according to Isaiah 8:8. Please, read the quotations in order not to say that I am making up things.
Ben: Sometimes it helps to use logic to interpret
the Scriptures. That commission in Matthew 28:19 was never given by Jesus but by Paul for three reasons: First, Jesus would not order his Apostles to baptize anyone in the name of the son if he was the one. Second, Jesus would not extend his gospel unto the Gentiles, because he had an aversion to Gentiles. And third,
baptism in the name of Jesus was inaugurated by Paul. Read Acts 19:5
Ben:
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NotWorthy
Guest
This is an odd thing to say since it was the Jews that put this in the Old Testament Scriptures.
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Crimson_Seraph
Guest
Of note to me has always been that he wouldn’t even answer her until she came a worshipped him.
You also presume much, Jesus did not have to save her daughter, and indeed would have been just in not doing so. It is written “I will have mercy on whom I will.” after all. Jesus doesn’t owe anyone anything after all, this is why it’s called Grace or mercy.
It was a test of faith, pure and simple. Jesus didn’t do anything bad.
You also presume much, Jesus did not have to save her daughter, and indeed would have been just in not doing so. It is written “I will have mercy on whom I will.” after all. Jesus doesn’t owe anyone anything after all, this is why it’s called Grace or mercy.
It was a test of faith, pure and simple. Jesus didn’t do anything bad.
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pete_29
Guest
To you, Jesus is dead. To us, Jesus is very much alive. I’m sure this is something that will never be reconciled between us. However, I take a small exception to the statement that you honor Him more than we do for you honor Him as a rotting corpse where we honor Him as the Son of God. Which sounds like more of an honor to you. Sorry if this is repetitive as I haven’t had time to read all the posts.Jesus is dead. And we should honor his memory
by not using his name to hurt other people. It has been in the name of Jesus that Christianity has destroyed thousands of our
People. And I mean mine and Jesus’.
Now, if your question was, who do I say that Jesus was, I would
say that he was a Rabbi and Teacher who, among others of his time, according to a certain custom, gathered disciples in the mystical number of twelve to teach Torah and the Prophets. There were many of those groups at the time. Jesus was singled out because he was the one Paul happened to pick.
Moreover, Jesus was the legitimate and biological son of Joseph and Mary. Any other strange account would be inserting Greek Mythology into Judaism. Thinking of Jesus this way, I give no one the chance to think of Jesus in a disrespective manner. I am sure you know what I am talking about. Thinking of Jesus in the Christian fashion, you can’t imagine what Agnostics say about him.
Ben:
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cheeto1
Guest
Well, that is a little bit of the problem, since I don’t know whichYou are welcome! I believe in 20 percent of the Christian NT. I mean, 20 percent that really came our of Jesus and about him. Regarding your last question, I could prove to you that even yourself do not believe that Jesus is a real person. In my case, he is not, because he is dead. But I believe that he was a real person two thousand years ago. In your case, how could he be a person if he is not on earth?
Ben:
20 percent to discuss. In regards to the resurrection of Jesus,
do you mean to say that the guards were guarding an empty tomb? Where do you think Joseph of Arimithea took Him? I
really am interested in your side of the story.
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Ben_Masada
Guest
Mind you that 20 percent of the whole of the NT is quite a lot. Now, your question about the guards watching an empty tomb caused me to laugh. You know, the way you put it.
Yes Cheeto, they were indeed guarding an empty tomb. Imagine a Jewish trick on the Romans. They must have got really angry when they found out they had been made such fools.
If you focus your attention on Matthew 27:62-66, it was Saturday, and not too early in the morning, you can bet on that, the chief priests called at Pilate’s home to ask for a guard of soldiers to watch that tomb. Pilate, who hated Jews, definitely would not be available to Jewish affairs too early in the morning. It was then that they sealed the stone which was loose. I have been to that tomb and to others of rich people. One must walk for about 30 meters from the entrance till the place where the body must be laid.
When Joseph of Arimathea removed Jesus from the cross, he must have realized that life was still with him. You can read Matthew 27:57-61. He must have thought about taking Jesus to his home to treat of his wounds, but because Mary Magdalene and the other Mary remained sitting in there, facing the tomb, Joseph laid Jesus in his rich tomb for an hour or two, just rolled the stone across, and made his intentions noticed that he was going home to prepare for the Sabbath. He wanted to avoid some kind of commotion if those women even dreamed that Jesus was alive.
As he realized that the two had left, he returned and removed Jesus to a safe place where he could treat his wounds. And guess what? Jesus survived the cross. If you read Josephus,
it was very common for crucified to remain alive on the crosses for from two to four days until they were dead. Jesus had only about two or three hours. That’s why Mark says in 15:44,45 that Pilate was surprised and suspictious that he had died so soon.
Suspecting that Joseph was cheating on him, he called the Centurion to make sure he was dead. You know, Joseph was very rich and the Centurion was very poor. It’s not hard to figure that the Centurion got a little of Joseph’s wealth supplus to report
to Pilate that everything was all right.
Now, if you read Matthew 28:1, Mary Magdalene went to see the sepulcher at the end of that Sabbath. Do you know when the Sabbath ends for the Jews? At sunset. And at sunset, the tomb was alread empty. Least they knew that it had been empty since Friday night.
Ben:
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NotWorthy
Guest
Ben, you would make a great novelist!
But, bear in mind, although it was common to survive 2-4 days on the Cross:
a) It was also common to die at the hands of the scourgers.
b) the Romans wanted the three criminals dead by sundown, which is why they broke the others legs. Without legs to prop themselves up on, the other two died of drowning rather rapidly.
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Ben_Masada
Guest
I am sorry that you had to draw such a rush criticism before reading all the posts. I see no disrespect to think of Jesus as of having gone the same way of other great ones likeTo you, Jesus is dead. To us, Jesus is very much alive. I’m sure this is something that will never be reconciled between us. However, I take a small exception to the statement that you honor Him more than we do for you honor Him as a rotting corpse where we honor Him as the Son of God. Which sounds like more of an honor to you. Sorry if this is repetitive as I haven’t had time to read all the posts.
Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, Moses, David, etc, etc. I respect him
as of being one of the legitimate children of Joseph and Mary. This way, no one can say that he had a Roman soldier for a father.
When you deny Jesus as Joseph’s biological son, the Agnostics are only too happy to assign him Pantera for a father. Do you call this respect? I didn’t think so. Now, don’t come with Jesus being son of God with a woman because in Judaism there is no place for Greek Mythology. The Olympian Pantheon is in Greece and not in Israel.
Ben:
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Ben_Masada
Guest
My dear NotWorthy, allow me to correct two small mistakes of yours. If you are thinking that Jesus was the only one to be scourged before crucifixion, read John 19:1. To scourge one before crucifixion was a Roman policy with the purpose to break any disposition to resistence. The second mistake is that the Romans did not give a damn how long the Jews stayed on the crosses before they died. The leg-breaking business was not Roman but Jewish and only on Fridays becauseBen, you would make a great novelist!
But, bear in mind, although it was common to survive 2-4 days on the Cross:
a) It was also common to die at the hands of the scourgers.
b) the Romans wanted the three criminals dead by sundown, which is why they broke the others legs. Without legs to prop themselves up on, the other two died of drowning rather rapidly.
they didn’t want them hanging on the crosses during the hours of the Sabbath. Therefore, the interest was of the Jewish authorities
that the crucified were dead by sundown. Thanks God, Joseph was fast enough before the Jewish leg-breakers arrived. And before you think of the spear-piecing, don’t even try it because it never happened.
Ben:
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Ben_Masada
Guest
The KJV exaggerates the homage that woman did to Jesus as she put her request. She did not worship him, because she knew from us herself that only God is to be worshiped. The Catholic New American version of the Bible, which is the one I use, brings “homage” and not the word
“worship.”
I agree with you indeed that Jesus did not have to save her daughter. His disciples thought so too. That’s why they asked
him to get rid of her. Why test her then? Why did he have to add
more to her torment? Did he explain to his disciples later the purpose of the test? No, he didn’t. The bad thing remains therefore. I wonder how he would have liked to be treated if he had been on the other side of the stick. Goden Rule my friend. Never do unto others what you would not like they did unto you.
Ben:
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Ben_Masada
Guest
Are you talking about Isaiah 7:14? That’s not a physical virgin “Betulah” but “Almah”, a young woman. And the reference is to Israel, according to Amos 5:2. And the child is Judah if you read Isaiah 8:8. But to understand what I am talking
about, you must have some initiation in the concept of Messiah ben Joseph versus Messiah ben David. Otherwise, it will be an exercise in futility.
Ben:
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pete_29
Guest
I’m not concerned about how agnostics honor Him. I’m concerned about how I honor Him. And I don’t see the need for you to be sarcastic with me.I am sorry that you had to draw such a rush criticism before reading all the posts. I see no disrespect to think of Jesus as of having gone the same way of other great ones like
Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, Moses, David, etc, etc. I respect him
as of being one of the legitimate children of Joseph and Mary. This way, no one can say that he had a Roman soldier for a father.
When you deny Jesus as Joseph’s biological son, the Agnostics are only too happy to assign him Pantera for a father. Do you call this respect? I didn’t think so. Now, don’t come with Jesus being son of God with a woman because in Judaism there is no place for Greek Mythology. The Olympian Pantheon is in Greece and not in Israel.
Ben:
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Ben_Masada
Guest
Agnostics do not honor Jesus. They act like hyenas waiting for you guys to detach Jesus from his People so that they can jump in with their fangs of disrespect. But if you ask me, I don’t blame them, but Christians themselves for leaving Jesus at their mercy.
Ben:
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