Something different: a story

[brumano]

The Catholic Church does not teach that we are “totally fallen”. There are Protestant denominations that teach such, but this is not the Catholic view.

the couple to have deserved ill treatment so that Peter’s actions could somehow be justified. It’s okay, and natural, that we do this. Would you justify the king’s behavior also?
Our forgiveness of say, abortion doctors, is not going to stop them from doing abortions. We have to use other means. We can donate to groups that encourage adoption. We can march on the streets against abortion. What the forgiveness does is make us “right” again with God, as you see in Mark 11:25.

That lie might have been their death sentence, all i can say finally is that I think there’s enough reason in here and in other passages in Acts to believe 5,1-11 is just as it reads, no apollogies offered.
[/QUOTE]

 

[OneSheep]

“I don’t believe anyone goes to a place of eternal damnation. People don’t make such decisions when the options are clear.” That is a good point you bring up.

Just how clear are the decisions we make during and after death? Decisions can be swayed by our emotions or our trained way of thinking. How will the human soul be presented with eternity? Maybe it may be they are presented with the thought of chosing to be with Jesus or away from Jesus, and not so much of heaven or hell. If the person hasn’t thought much about Jesus in life, then why would they want to chose him in death? And even more so if they act as if sin was a non event. Maybe the test each will go thru will be different then the picture we have visualized it to be. Not so much about heaven or hell, but about another choice which will bring its own result.

In this case, the good priest might have a point. For once they understood what choice they made, then it is that they would object and begin screaming against their choice.

But then maybe this isn’t the scenerio. But can anyone afford to be wrong?

The church asks us to pray for sinners. It is asking us to be merciful to those who don’t know any better. And there are so many reasons why they may not know better. And if they don’t know any better now, then there is there any reason to suspect that when they die they will know better? But the church seems to think that our prayers make a big difference in their choice of turning things around in their life, in order, that when they die, they will make the right choice.

May God bless and keep you. May God’s face shine on you. May God be kind to you and give you peace.

And to you also. Thanks for the nice discussion. Yes, let us continue to pray.

 

[OneSheep]

He went on to explain however that this fallen nature is the same nature that people like, St.Francis, and Pope John Paul II had to live with, and the difference between them and say a Stalin or a Hitler who had the same nature is grace but it is also the will of their choice to love the good. Cathoilc teaching is that we are all made primarily good but we did certainly fall, and as we’ve already arrived at, are all capable of great good or great evil.
The catholic teaching that i doubt would be too far off would be that we are all good in first nature, completely fallen from it in sin, and fully redeemed to the possibility of perfection in God. The Protestants, not all of them i’m sure, look at man as inherently evil. There is no doubt that the fall was total; death ensued.

I have thought about my previous response, and I am sorry that I was insensitive to the most important part of your interaction with this priest, that what he said was exactly what you needed to hear. There is a lot more to relationship than exact wording and accurate theological statements. If what he said worked for you, then praise God!

I think most Protestant denominations do not believe in man’s total depravity.

I can accept your view of Peter’s actions. If you find what he did was acceptable, then there is no reason to forgive him. On the other hand, if you are offended by what Ananias and Sapphira did, then the call is to forgive them. Either way, everyone ends up forgiven, at least from your standpoint.

 

[brumano]

I have thought about my previous response, and I am sorry that I was insensitive to the most important part of your interaction with this priest, that what he said was exactly what you needed to hear. There is a lot more to relationship than exact wording and accurate theological statements. If what he said worked for you, then praise God!

I think most Protestant denominations do not believe in man’s total depravity.

No need for that, those are the kinds of things that are automatically put aside sort of like somebody accidentaly bumps into you in a crowd, or cuts out in front of you in traffic; no big deal at all, and we all do those things. That and alot more all comes under forgive us as we forgive others but somethings are not just as automatic as your spirituality would seem to decide. I’m sure you’ve read; blasphemies against the holy spirit will not be forgiven. i’m sure you’ve read, those who offend one of these little ones…the unborn are the littlest of the little ones, i’m sure you’ve read, those who have known the depths of satan shall not be saved. Not everyone gets forgiven from my standpoint, not while they go on defiantly, but that’s going to get back to whether any forgivenes ever takes place until there is real conversion and that’s all in God’s judgement not in mine and it holds true for me as well.

 

[OneSheep]

No need for that, those are the kinds of things that are automatically put aside sort of like somebody accidentaly bumps into you in a crowd, or cuts out in front of you in traffic; no big deal at all, and we all do those things.

We all accidentally bump into people, but accidents are almost always immediately forgiven. We may find it easy to forgive when people cut us off because we sometimes do it to others. (There is still a need for forgiveness, though, if we are aware) But you can see that the couple’s lie was a very big deal to Peter. Was Peter still condemning himself for denying Jesus three times? It is hard to know, but it is possible. Peter “lied” to Jesus, and he may have carried the sin with him for the rest of his life. I hope this is not the case, but it may help explain why he reacted so meanly to the couple.

That and alot more all comes under forgive us as we forgive others but somethings are not just as automatic as your spirituality would seem to decide. I’m sure you’ve read; blasphemies against the holy spirit will not be forgiven. i’m sure you’ve read, those who offend one of these little ones…the unborn are the littlest of the little ones,…

The “blasphemy against the Spirit” (Mark 3:28-29) that Jesus was talking about has to be read in context. Jesus had just healed someone, and the Pharisees believed that he was using the power of evil to do so.

So what is blasphemy against the Spirit? Blasphemy against the Spirit is to ascribe to satan what comes from God. This is why we have to be extremely careful about ascribing to satan what comes from God. The Pharisees supposedly refused to believe that the healing came from God.

To me, everything comes from God, other than personal choices. Personal choices come from us. I did not come to that conclusion, though, by fear of blasphemy against the Spirit.

Can you forgive someone for ascribing to satan what comes from God? I can. People ascribe to satan what comes from God every day. And I am certain that God forgives them too. The “unforgivable sin” is not a matter of God not forgiving, it is of our refusal to be with God, to see God. The CCC says it refers to refusal, not blindness or ignorance, but I cannot fathom refusal without blindness or ignorance.

i’m sure you’ve read, those who have known the depths of satan shall not be saved. Not everyone gets forgiven from my standpoint, not while they go on defiantly, but that’s going to get back to whether any forgivenes ever takes place until there is real conversion and that’s all in God’s judgement not in mine and it holds true for me as well.

It is a statement of our faith that God always forgives. However, for reconciliation to take place, a person has to make a choice to accept such forgiveness. God’s arms are always open.

Let’s put this in the context of our own children. Do you have children? There is absolutely nothing that one of my children could do that I would not forgive. It may take me some time, but I will always forgive, whether they repent or not, whether they undergo “conversion” or not. Would you do the same? However, my child may refuse to be in relationship with me. Does this clarify where I am coming from? Do you share this standpoint? Would God be less forgiving?

The “knowing the depths of satan” comes from the book of Revelation. I think the whole book of Revelation has to be read in the context of a writer who has a lot of resentment toward a lot of things, very understandably so. The book of Revelation has its place, but I take none of it literally, and there are many parts that appear to be so contradictory to the spirit of the Gospel that I just leave them be as that, contradictory and not in keeping with the Gospel. I could spend more time analyzing it, and maybe someday I will do so.

 

[brumano]

Let’s put this in the context of our own children. Do you have children? There is absolutely nothing that one of my children could do that I would not forgive. It may take me some time, but I will always forgive, whether they repent or not, whether they undergo “conversion” or not. Would you do the same? However, my child may refuse to be in relationship with me. Does this clarify where I am coming from? Do you share this standpoint? Would God be less forgiving?

Okay let’s; I sure do and they didn’t get to the life that they now have by me not stepping in and fighting off quite a few wolves some in sheep’s clothing who would have destroyed that life of their’s simply because they are in fact, underneath their appearance, just evil, that’s all. Satan has children too, lots of them and without going into how personally to deal with our own children’s would be indiscretions or rebellions against us; let’s ponder what our standpoint towards them who would greatly harm them; our children, would or should be. Do you know there are people in this world who would sell your children down the river for fifty bucks? do you know there are people in this world that would turn your children into zombies and dope fiends? Do you know there are people who are in places of authority that would tell your daughter to have premarital sex and if she got pregnant to go down and get an abortion? Are you oblivious to a culture of death that stalks the human person from the moment they are conceived, just think of that, from the moment they are conceived, and all through their lives; set to do nothing but kill and destroy. I know what my standpoint is towards them and believe me it’s never going to change.

 

[OneSheep]

Okay let’s; I sure do and they didn’t get to the life that they now have by me not stepping in and fighting off quite a few wolves some in sheep’s clothing who would have destroyed that life of their’s simply because they are in fact, underneath their appearance, just evil, that’s all. Satan has children too, lots of them and without going into how personally to deal with our own children’s would be indiscretions or rebellions against us; let’s ponder what our standpoint towards them who would greatly harm them; our children, would or should be. Do you know there are people in this world who would sell your children down the river for fifty bucks? do you know there are people in this world that would turn your children into zombies and dope fiends? Do you know there are people who are in places of authority that would tell your daughter to have premarital sex and if she got pregnant to go down and get an abortion? Are you oblivious to a culture of death that stalks the human person from the moment they are conceived, just think of that, from the moment they are conceived, and all through their lives; set to do nothing but kill and destroy. I know what my standpoint is towards them and believe me it’s never going to change.

A healthy, well informed conscience condemns the people you are talking about. We can only hope that all people condemn such when they hear about these things.

There is nothing in our theology that says satan has children, but if you believe so, I understand.

So, here is the challenge. I know this is very, very, hard to imagine, but pretend that one of your own children is involved in selling sex slaves, sells drugs to minors, or promotes “free sex” followed by abortion. Could you forgive? I know, it wouldn’t happen with your children. Could you forgive, or would you hang onto the resentment forever?

Do you know what the priest whose Bible study I went to said was a sin against the Spirit? A refusal to forgive was a sin against the Spirit, because in such refusal we will never know God’s forgiveness. To me, this is not a threat from the Spirit or from God, it is, again, a matter of human limitation. If we cannot forgive everyone, we will only know that God forgives sometimes. And if God only forgives sometimes, then we are doomed to thinking that we may not measure up.

These people you call the children of satan are your enemies. They are enemies of our society. Jesus calls us to love and forgive our enemies. It is not the least bit easy, but it is doable.

 

[fred_conty]

OneSheep, I’m not clear on what you would say forgiveness consists of.

Whether a house intruder is attacking a child, the father must stand by and forgive or something else. So what does forgiving this intruder consist of?

Or our ID is stolen and the thief is making a person’s life perfectly miserable everyday by buying things with the stolen ID. So what does forgiving this thief consist of?
It sounds like the shoe is on the wrong foot. Because the offender must stop and ask for forgiveness. Not that the offended must forgive the injustice without further consideration for his loss by the offender. It dosen’t seem that God, in his infinite patience, forgives when the offender does not ask for it and does not stop the offending.

So to me the idea of forgiveness is cloudy at this point, and is it larger than God’s?

That is, in the confessional, the person owns up to his offense, and promises to make amends, and resolves to stop offending, after which the words of forgiveness are spoken, “I absolve you of your sins.”

I would think that the willingness to forgive is needed always.

May God our Father give you grace and peace.

 

[brumano]

A healthy, well informed conscience condemns the people you are talking about. We can only hope that all people condemn such when they hear about these things

.
So they are condemned and that brings up the hard issue about forgiveness; true forgiveness is total, we can’t forgive and condemn at the same time, Christ said to Mary Magdalene, go thy way and sin no more; you see that’s Mercy and Conversion and that is what this world is in desperate need of, and not just well since everything is subjectively understandable than it’s all preemptively forgiveable anyway and nothing changes, and the world we have to see is still a very evil place, and that really was the testimony of Jesus about the world. This is why the world hates Him, because He testified of the world that it’s deeds are evil, is His testimony more or less true today than it was two thousand years ago?

There is nothing in our theology that says satan has children, but if you believe so, I understand.

This is what I do for them, I pray that God strike them and bring them to beg for mercy and if they showed mercy God will show his mercy but if they did not they will not see His mercy and for them “I humbly pray cast into hell satan and all his demons who prowl about the earth seeking the ruin of souls.”

 

[silver2soul]

No, I do not feel resentment towards the king. The man made a promise to give ALL his earnings from selling his house to the king to pay off his debt. Due to his lie and deception he and his wife whom agreed to the deception they were held responsible for they’re lie.

Instead the man should of stated to the king…

“I give you my word that I will pay you the exact debt I owe you with the earnings I receive when I sell my house; if the house sales earnings are more than my debt, then the debt portion shall be extracted and given and the remaining earnings shall be retained for my own deciding allocation.”

This example was more about making promises and sometimes we falter, because our understanding can be limited. Oaths and promises are heavy burdens upon those whom apply them. It is better not to swear or make promises; therefore saving the heartache if unfulfilled or ignored, and then consequences occur.

Some will say that you shouldn’t make promises you can keep; I say you shouldn’t make promises at all for…you do not know what tomorrow will bring.

Praise be to GOD the heavenly father and his son lord JEUS SCHRIST forever>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

[OneSheep]

First, a little technical stuff. If you are responding to pieces of my post, which I am glad you do, then please “cut off” the pieces by typing “/quote” , surrounded by brackets ] at the end of each piece, and put “quote” , surrounded by brackets at the beginning of each piece. Otherwise, I have to cut and paste onto Word, which I am doing to respond.

So they are condemned and that brings up the hard issue about forgiveness; true forgiveness is total, we can’t forgive and condemn at the same time, Christ said to Mary Magdalene, go thy way and sin no more; you see that’s Mercy and Conversion and that is what this world is in desperate need of, and not just well since everything is subjectively understandable than it’s all preemptively forgiveable anyway and nothing changes, and the world we have to see is still a very evil place, and that really was the testimony of Jesus about the world. This is why the world hates Him, because He testified of the world that it’s deeds are evil, is His testimony more or less true today than it was two thousand years ago?

I’m not sure what you are saying here. Are you saying that we are to determine that certain sins are not forgiveable? . I think we can see that every prophet in the old testament testified that people’s deeds are evil. This is nothing new. Anyone with a normal conscience can say that people do bad deeds. What Jesus did that was different is, among other things, was show us how to forgive the unforgiving and unrepentant, which He did from the cross.

Does the “world” hate Jesus? Hmmm. I don’t think so. Is the world a very evil place? I don’t think so, but if you are seeing things out of control and not getting better, then this is a very understandable position.

We don’t forgive people for their benefit. We forgive people in order to reach a deeper holiness, which is what Jesus asks of us.

You are right. We cannot forgive a person and condemn them at the same time. So, when we condemn, we are called to forgive. We are not called to let people continue to sin as I have stated elsewhere on this thread.

He has spiritual children, droves of them; i just sincerely hope you never have to deal with any of them to find out they exist. let’s look at a just one or two news items recently, and you tell me who’s at work here. A mother and her three children burned to death in a housefire set by arson, we don’t even have the words to speak to how vile him and the people who paid him to do it must be. a man kept three teenage girls hostage for more than 20 yrs. brutalizing them raping them making every minute of their lives nothing but hell, caged like animals in his basement, those girls are someone’s daughters, who was this guy that did this a son of? This is without even getting into legitimitized evil like abortion, and it’s doctors of death, we only hear a small number of their horrific crimes and the authorities are their partners in genocide; who’s running this show?

Do you know what St. Augustine said, when he overcame Manichaeism? He said that whatever exists in any way is good. He also said that through the Spirit we see that whatever exists is good. So, please be open-minded to an alternative here.

Let’s do an investigation. First, when we see someone do something bad, we condemn the act and the person. This is the working of the conscience, we hold something against the person. Jesus calls us to forgive those we hold something against. How do we go about that? First, it takes a lot of prayer. It also takes a lot of investigation. So, join me in an investigation! Let’s start with a very specific question:

Why did Ariel Castro brutalize and rape those women? I know, you don’t know the details, and probably don’t want to know either. I’m with you on that. But take a guess at it. Why did he do it? There may be a place in your mind that says “don’t go there”. But I am asking you to be open-minded. It did not come easy to Augustine either. Jesus said “seek, and you will find”. Please be open-minded about the “seeking”.
My quote:

These people you call the children of satan are your enemies. They are enemies of our society. Jesus calls us to love and forgive our enemies. It is not the least bit easy, but it is doable.

Your response:

This is what I do for them, I pray that God strike them and bring them to beg for mercy and if they showed mercy God will show his mercy but if they did not they will not see His mercy and for them “I humbly pray cast into hell satan and all his demons who prowl about the earth seeking the ruin of souls.”

This is your normal, healthy conscience talking. It is our normal, human response to be compelled to punish wrongdoing. Jesus shows us something different. The crowd wanted to stone the adulterer, but He forgave her instead. The crowd wanted to crucify Jesus, and He forgave them. In both cases, the crowds were guided by their consciences; they sought to punish what they saw as sin. Jesus calls us to forgive those we condemn. There are no “unforgiveable sins” other than the sin of informed, willful closed-mindedness to the love of God. Frankly, I don’t think such sin ever happens. People are blind and ignorant.

It is the “way of the world”, the “way of the body” to hold onto a grudge, to never forgive, to decide that certain sins are unforgiveable. Jesus shows us something much different.

 

[OneSheep]

Sorry I did not see this post, Fred. I’ll address it now.

OneSheep, I’m not clear on what you would say forgiveness consists of.

Whether a house intruder is attacking a child, the father must stand by and forgive or something else. So what does forgiving this intruder consist of?

To me, after we fend off the attacker by every necessary means, including fatal injury, we forgive the person. In the mean time, forgiveness is a non-issue.

Or our ID is stolen and the thief is making a person’s life perfectly miserable everyday by buying things with the stolen ID. So what does forgiving this thief consist of?
It sounds like the shoe is on the wrong foot.

It is going to be very difficult to forgive the thief until the situation is under control. That was what Peter was up against, possibly. He saw the situation with A. and S. as out of control, and he had trouble forgiving.

Because the offender must stop and ask for forgiveness. Not that the offended must forgive the injustice without further consideration for his loss by the offender. It dosen’t seem that God, in his infinite patience, forgives when the offender does not ask for it and does not stop the offending.

Jesus forgave unrelenting offenders from the cross.

So to me the idea of forgiveness is cloudy at this point, and is it larger than God’s?

That is, in the confessional, the person owns up to his offense, and promises to make amends, and resolves to stop offending, after which the words of forgiveness are spoken, “I absolve you of your sins.”

I would think that the willingness to forgive is needed always.

May God our Father give you grace and peace.

Yes, willingness to forgive is needed always. We may be thinking differently about “needed” though. Also, please clarify the “larger than God’s” part.

 

[OneSheep]

No, I do not feel resentment towards the king.

I sincerely hope that you are not an IRS employee.

 

[fred_conty]

Sorry I did not see this post, Fred. I’ll address it now.

To me, after we fend off the attacker by every necessary means, including fatal injury, we forgive the person. In the mean time, forgiveness is a non-issue.

It is going to be very difficult to forgive the thief until the situation is under control. That was what Peter was up against, possibly. He saw the situation with A. and S. as out of control, and he had trouble forgiving.

Jesus forgave unrelenting offenders from the cross.

Yes, willingness to forgive is needed always. We may be thinking differently about “needed” though. Also, please clarify the “larger than God’s” part.

Forgiveness is to give up the desire for vengence or to punish. But this does not conflict with the desire for justice. For justice is rendering what is due.

“Jesus forgave unrelenting offenders from the cross.” He is asking for the punishment to be dropped and mercy override justice. Because they didn’t realize how serious this event was. Just as we forgive small children because of their unknowing.

Jesus, before his death, had a dispute with the Jewish leaders. At the end of the dispute Jesus said that their sin would not be forgiven. It was either that it was against the Holy Spirit or that they knew what they were doing. But in any case, Jesus did say their sin would not be forgiven. Which means justice will be rendered and not mercy thru forgiveness.

“Bigger than God’s forgiveness” means that even God requires the person to acknowledge his sin and repent. And should we be bigger than God and not require them to acknowledge what wrong they did and not do it again.

Jesus again said that if a person has offended another, he should leave his gift at the altar, and first go settle it, then come back and offer the gift. So forgiveness comes with settlement. That means an apology is in order, or something must be done to straighten out the relationship. It isn’t automatic or it dosen’t just happen, and involves both parties.

Suppose a person stole an object worth a lot of money. Must they forgive them and drop the matter? Or may they not take them to court to recover that valuable object?

May God our Father give you grace and peace.

 

[OneSheep]

Forgiveness is to give up the desire for vengence or to punish. But this does not conflict with the desire for justice. For justice is rendering what is due.

Forgiveness, to me, is not giving up the desire for for social control. I know when I have forgiven when, among other things, I can truthfully say “I could have done that, and I have no negative feelings toward either one of us.” I come to the point that what is “due” is nothing other than wanting to help the person overcome their blindness or ignorance. Reparations certainly help in this matter. Disincentives do too. Our society has to be in control, and some people have their empathy blocked.

“Jesus forgave unrelenting offenders from the cross.” He is asking for the punishment to be dropped and mercy override justice. Because they didn’t realize how serious this event was. Just as we forgive small children because of their unknowing.

I think it was much more than the crowd not realizing the seriousness of the event. It was the crowd enslaved by their own consciences which said, “this is an evil person.” The blindness of the crowd, sadly, was very ordinary. Jesus’ response of forgiveness was extraordinary. To me, it was not a matter of mercy overriding justice. It was a matter of that God had already forgiven, and Jesus was showing us, upon exiting, how the Father forgives. Jesus did not have to ask. It had already happened.

It is by the workings of our conscience that we hold things against people. It is not God holding anything against anyone.

Jesus, before his death, had a dispute with the Jewish leaders. At the end of the dispute Jesus said that their sin would not be forgiven. It was either that it was against the Holy Spirit or that they knew what they were doing. But in any case, Jesus did say their sin would not be forgiven. Which means justice will be rendered and not mercy thru forgiveness.

I would have to see it in context and refer to some notes. Could you give me the verse? If it is the one I am thinking of, Jesus is referring to their closed-mindedness to forgiveness. In this case, God forgives us, but we will never know it because until we forgive everyone, we cannot fathom a God who does. God is who we project him to be. If we do not forgive, we are blind to God’s unconditional love.

“Bigger than God’s forgiveness” means that even God requires the person to acknowledge his sin and repent. And should we be bigger than God and not require them to acknowledge what wrong they did and not do it again.

It is my understanding that it is not God requiring. Repentance is not a condition, as Jesus showed from the cross. However, Jesus was speaking to a people who projected much on God, as we all do. If they were sad, God had abandoned them. If they were happy, God was smiling on them. If they felt guilty, God was punishing them. If a person refuses to forgive someone, they will project a god who refuses also. It is a limitation of our mind. The God we know forgives no more than we do. If we forgive everyone, whether or not they repent or forgive, we will know God’s forgiveness.

That said, repentance does play an extremely important role in our ability to forgive. If we are out of control of our own desire for status, for example, we will be especially condemning toward others who constantly dive for the limelight. Have you ever heard someone complain forever about someone who pretty much fits the description of the complainer? This is the “post” in our eye, while we are working on someone else’s sliver. Hypocrisy is the rule, not the exception.

Jesus again said that if a person has offended another, he should leave his gift at the altar, and first go settle it, then come back and offer the gift. So forgiveness comes with settlement. That means an apology is in order, or something must be done to straighten out the relationship. It isn’t automatic or it dosen’t just happen, and involves both parties.

This is the human way, but Jesus showed us God’s way. God forgave us as soon as He made us. He knew what He was doing. I don’t think of God as ever resenting any of us. It is not Abba as I know Him. We can forgive people without reconciling with them personally, though it is better that we do. Reconciliation, a straightening out, is not always possible. We can forgive our politicians, we can forgive Hitler, we can forgive Stalin. Settlements are not always possible. But with forgiveness comes wholeness, the holiness we are called to.

Suppose a person stole an object worth a lot of money. Must they forgive them and drop the matter? Or may they not take them to court to recover that valuable object?

See, we are working from different definitions of forgiveness. I would take them to court. After some time and prayer I would forgive the thief, but still take them to court. I would want my money back. I am human, and my conscience says, “I deserve to have my money back”. A soldier can go to war and still forgive.

Forgiveness involves seeing the good intent of those whose actions we detest.

God bless

 

[brumano]

I’m not sure what you are saying here. Are you saying that we are to determine that certain sins are not forgiveable? . I think we can see that every prophet in the old testament testified that people’s deeds are evil. This is nothing new. Anyone with a normal conscience can say that people do bad deeds. What Jesus did that was different is, among other things, was show us how to forgive the unforgiving and unrepentant, which He did from the cross

 

[OneSheep]

.
Just from “frogive them they know not what they do” we could take, forgive them who know not what they do, without necessarily bunching in those who do know what they do. Minimally though, we can surely surmise that there is much greater hope for those who knew not, than for those who do.

 

[brumano]

True that’s a very important distinction that must be remembered and it is a great source of hope even for the most despairing sinner; but it does not conflict or controvert any of the other gospel words; this was not said so that we could all feel comfortable with sin and at ease with a world of evil. I only really gave a few gospel passages, but in addition to all the others that could be brought in, add to them all the Apostolic letters and there’s just no denying or ignoring this…reality, of judgement. The Apostle John who preached love above all says be not deceived, he who acts in righteoussness is of God, he who fails to act in righteoussness is of the devil. St Paul: be ye not deceived neither drunkards, nor idolators, nor fornicators, nor murderers will enter into heaven. St.Peter: if the righteous man is hardly saved, where shall the ungodly appear? Needless to say, we could go on but I’m thinking you can’t possibly disagree that something more than just a willingness to forgive has to take place in the world, that something is change and my feeling is that it better be soon.

-Yeah, lots of them; me. I could tell myself that I didn’t really know, but ya know that one doesn’t work that well as the years go by, it’s the darndest thing but somehow we do know, and if we know, how much more must God know?

 

[OneSheep]

Yes, absolutely, judgment is a reality. Our conscience is constantly judging us, every day. Our conscience is a behavior regulating mechanism, informed by our experiences and from other people. We cannot stop our own consciences from condemning us when we do certain things. The question is, does God have this same mechanism? When a person sees all, then he values everyone, and he would never sin. God certainly does not need a self-punishing mechanism like we do, because He is omniscient. Does God seek to punish anyone? Perhaps, but only if He thought it would help the person in some way. This is my view, of course. God knew what he was getting into when He created us. He did, and is doing, a great job. Creation happens slowly. Awareness, as part of creation, happens even more slowly.

The Apostle John who preached love above all says be not deceived, he who acts in righteoussness is of God, he who fails to act in righteoussness is of the devil. St Paul: be ye not deceived neither drunkards, nor idolators, nor fornicators, nor murderers will enter into heaven. St.Peter: if the righteous man is hardly saved, where shall the ungodly appear? Needless to say, we could go on but I’m thinking you can’t possibly disagree that something more than just a willingness to forgive has to take place in the world, that something is change and my feeling is that it better be soon.

John, Paul, and Peter, in these cases, were speaking from their consciences. I am certain that they said the right things for the occasion, but condemnation is not what Jesus said from the cross.

Absolutely, something more than forgiveness is called for! We are definitely in agreement there! Repentance is called for. Repentance from all the trappings of our nature, good as it is. Repentance means following the 10 commandments and more, repentance means being in control of our God-given appetites.

The king needed to repent! The king was enslaved by his own resentment, and was acting out cruelly. This was also the sin of the pharisees, they were so ensnared by their own consciences, seeking to punish those who sinned, including Jesus the “blasphemer”. The pharisees needed to repent from their resentment. What does repentance from resentment look like? Here we go, back to forgiveness.

-Yeah, lots of them; me. I could tell myself that I didn’t really know, but ya know that one doesn’t work that well as the years go by, it’s the darndest thing but somehow we do know, and if we know, how much more must God know?

Here’s the thing, though. “Knowing what we are doing” is considered equal to knowing right from wrong, but that is only part of the picture. Is torture wrong? Of course it is, we say. In Jesus’ day, though, it was just fine to torture people. The government did it all the time. So, did the crowd who hung Jesus “know” what they were doing was wrong? Perhaps not. What is just as important, if not more important, is “did the crowd know the value of the person being hung?”. Absolutely not. They resented Jesus, and when we resent someone, that person’s value appears less than that of a mosquito. This is the working of our conscience.

Please try, brumano. In light of the last paragraph, can you think of a single case of someone who committed a sin and knew what they were doing? Pick any example.

 

[brumano]

I thought I already did; okay, just this morning i premeditatively lied to someone, i already knew I was going to and I went ahead and did it. Let’s see how your system works.