Something I learned today

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Roseeurekacross

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Jesus, as part of God’s plan for our Salvation, was part of the original plan, by God, to become Incarnate.

Jesus was always in the plan then , regardless of the actions of Adam and Eve, or events in that garden.

Jesus came incarnate to the Glory of God
 
Roseeurekacross said:
Jesus was always in the plan then , regardless of the actions of Adam and Eve, or events in that garden.
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I don’t know that I’d say “regardless”. Rather, since God is omniscient, He knew that Adam and Eve would sin, and knew that he would send His son to be incarnate and to save humanity.
 
Hi, Rose!

…or could it be that God understood man’s limitations and inclinations and that he would fail and so He Built into Creation His Salvific Plan?

Maran atha!

Angel
 
Its an interesting discussion, one that expands my understanding of who Jesus is, and His mission. If we look at the Gospel of John, it doesnt start with the nativity narratives. It starts, John writes to tell us that Jesus is the Incarnation of God. John goes on to tell us that Jesus is the ’ true light that enlightens everyone’.
John keeps with this message, this lesson. Throughout his Gospel Jesus is described as light, the light of the world.

John teaches we can move from our darkness into the full vision of light, of Jesus. ’ what came to be through Him was this life and this life was the light of the human race
The light shines in the darkness and the darkness has not overcome it (John 1:3-5)

Themes of light vs darkness follow throughout this Gospel. The Samaritan woman, about to speak to the light of the world, does so around noon. Judas, about to walk into darkness , is described during the last supper as being discharged to do his betrayal. John then adds ’ it was night.
 
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It’s why satan rebelled and said he would not serve. The angels were told the plan, that God’s son would become human and that the angels would have to minister to and worship him. It was also satan’s fall that he had to have Our Lady as his queen. Father Ripperger teaches on this.
 
Jesus is the first and the last. He was before the Angels.
 
Hi, Rose!

I concur! There’s that funny literary theme that is actually a type of the Spiritual Battle remarked upon in Genesis 3:15 and expanded upon in Apocalypse (Revelation) 12.

…but John was a poor dramatist… he gave up the finally right from the first chapter: 'the Light (Jesus) Shines and the darkness (evil) cannot overcome Him!

Maran atha!

Angel
 
…more to the point He was the Word that Existed as God and with God from the Beginning!

Maran atha!

Angel
 
RoseofMary1 said:
The angels were told the plan, that God’s son would become human and that the angels would have to minister to and worship him. It was also satan’s fall that he had to have Our Lady as his queen.
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Is this the doctrinal teaching of the Church? (If so, do you have a citation you can share with us?)

After all, angels (including satan and the fallen angels) do not have knowledge of all things in history.
 
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I love the way John writes. He doesn’t satart with the nativity narratives or the Ministry of Jesus. He just gets right into it like the early Genesis was the Book immediately before.
Then goes on to talk about John the Baptist. He isn’t the one, but the one preparing the way.

Paul picks up on these themes a lot too, he grows spiritually through the course of his writings to a theme of Christocentric Way.

I was watching my Priest today in Mass. He is growing so much atm in Spirituality. He is putting pause, deliberately in his liturgy. And seems so full of joy.

Gorgias it’s an interesting concept. The way God planned it all to have Jesus Incarnate in the fullness of time.

That’s the next thought. What was/ is the fullness of that me
 
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Hi, Rose!

St. John’s is my favorite Gospel because of it (although I love St. Matthew’s just a little less); it seems to me that people just don’t get it… John was the disciple that Jesus loved most so, to me, it is only natural that He would choose John to make His Divinity and the Trinity Known from the get go.

I wouldn’t say that St. Paul picked up themes from any writings as these were not made readily available and Saul was hit head on by Christ’s two-zillion horse power chariot as He infused knowledge into him.

As a response to his conversion St. Paul becomes the most prolific Writer, and, I believe, the most mobile and energetic Evangelist. He complements St. John’s Revelation as the Holy Spirit Unfolds so much in his Writings.

We must pray that our Priests turn to God with humility and allow the Holy Spirit to Bless the world through their Faithful Teaching being doers of the Word, not just hearers/preachers.

Maran atha!

Angel
 
Actually, there was a big theological argument all through the Middle Ages about whether or not Jesus would have become incarnate if we hadn’t sinned, and whether or not we would have been made sons and daughters of God through Baptism, and in general a big discussion of alternate reality went on. The Franciscans tended to jump one way and the Dominicans another, which made it a bigger argument still.

There was no declaration ever made about which side was right. You can pretty much think what you like, on that subject.

As for the other question – Many of the Fathers and some Jewish people did teach that the angels fell out of pride, because they had been told that they would have to bow to Adam in his capacity of being in charge of Earth, and they refused because he was younger and less powerful than they, or because he was made out of dirt. But there are several other theories in the Fathers and in early Christian sources about why Satan rebelled, chiefly that Satan just thought he was as good as God because he was the best among the angels, and smart and good-looking; or that Satan was power-hungry and wanted to get rid of God so that he could rule. Others opine that he thought creating a material universe was a bad idea, or that he was envious of God loving newbie creatures that weren’t angels. Tolkien’s Ainulindale plays with one of the other theories, that Satan thought his ideas for Creation would be better than God’s or those of any of God’s collaborators.

There is no definitive ruling on the subject, as far as I know. Doubtless we will find out the whole story in exhaustive detail at the Last Judgment.
 
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Hi, Mintaka!

That’s the nature of the beast (argument); man’s quest for answers places him at the thresholds of fact, fiction, and God’s Revelation… he can understand and discover facts; he can bemuse about facts (known and unknowns) till the cows come home; he must accept God’s Revelation as God Decrees it… sometimes all three themes compete with each other as man must reason out God’s Decrees with his limited understanding…

It is the reason why so many have turn from the Truth (Jesus) to their personal version of the truth.

Maran atha!

Angel
 
what I learned was because Jesus is first and last,
and because He was before creation happened, and, as St Paul came to teach, we were also planned before creation , Jesus would still have become incarnate, as psrt of Gods Plan, in the fullness of time.
The Christocentric . So Jesus is the centre of the world and universe and is the primacy and predestination of and to God.

roseomary, Our Lady is Queen of heaven and earth, because she is the mother of God. She is our mother too. She, through Jesus , crushes satans head for us.

J crighton when I said StcPaul picks up on these themes in his writings, i meant he comes to this understandind as he grows spiritually, and especially during imprisonment, with the time to think and write letters. he comes to this independently.

the holy spirit at work.
 
Roseeurekacross said:
J crighton when I said StcPaul picks up on these themes in his writings, i meant he comes to this understandind as he grows spiritually, and especially during imprisonment, with the time to think and write letters. he comes to this independently.
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My big stumbling block was the Old Testament. I mistreated how it should be ‘handled’ in the bigger picture of things. I simply deceived and confused myself by placing it on equal footing as the NT because after all, it’s the ‘word of God’ and God is never changing right? Then I learned the truth is much wider than OT scripture and that MUCH of the concepts of God’s truth was given WELL in advance to the Romans and Greeks - definitely NOT the ‘Hebrews’. The OT is simply a book of future images and foreshadows. It’s nothing compared to the value of something like Platonism and the other advanced meta physical theologies which is much closer to Catholic doctrine. The NT is the Truth that no written letter in world history can compare.

One thing I can say, is we needed Mary for our salvation. And she was DEFINITELY planned. Most of the other things are smoke and mirrors and window dressing.

I personally don’t subscribe to ALL Christians being fore-chosen. I believe the smaller number of the predestined are are fore-chosen. I calculated the number was about 1 per 70 to 300 people. Paul was predestined. People should always keep this in mind:

Gal 1:15 But when God, who SET ME APART (chose me) from my MOTHER’S WOMB and CALLED ME by his GRACE, was pleased.

Judas would NOT have been pre-destined for reasons too long to get into.

The majority of humanity seem to be in the middle where we will either chose heaven or hell. I do NOT believe in full pre-destination of the good, but only a small ratio of the good (these mostly Priests, the faithful, etc). Then there are the opposite who work against Christ and are essentially condemned. These are also in small ratios. Hence the battle of good vs evil for the sheep:

“The FIGHT taking place between CATHOLICISM and FREEMASONRY is a FIGHT to the very DEATH, ceaseless and merciless.” (Grand Orient of France P. 183. 1892, and in Supreme Council No. 85, page 48.)

“TO FIGHT AGAINST PAPACY (Catholicism) IS A SOCIAL NECESSITY AND CONSTITUTES THE CONSTANT DUTY OF FREEMASONRY.” - (Masonic International Congress, Brussels 1904, pg 132 of the report).

“Our FINAL END is that of Voltaire and of the French Revolution, the DESTRUCTION FOREVER of CATHOLICISM and even of the Christian idea , which, if left standing on the ruins of ROME, would be the resuscitation of Christianity later on." (Masonic Blueprint of Alta Vendita early 19th Century)

“NOTHING that can be NAMED is MORE REPUGNANT to MASONRY than ’POPERY’ and ‘PRIESTCRAFT’, NOTHING to be more carefully GUARDED AGAINST , and this has ALWAYS been WELL UNDERSTOOD by ALL SKILLFUL MASTERS " (Freemason’s Chronicle, 1887, I. 35).

Gal 4:17 Those FALSE TEACHERS (ANABAPTISTS!) are so eager to WIN your favor, but their intentions are NOT GOOD. They are TRYING to SHUT YOU OFF from me so that you will pay attention ONLY TO THEM.
 
SnoopSword said:
I personally don’t subscribe to ALL Christians being fore-chosen. I believe the smaller number of the predestined are are fore-chosen. I calculated the number was about 1 per 70 to 300 people. Paul was predestined. People should always keep this in mind:
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Actually all people are predestined to Salvation:
8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. (Romans 5)
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All of humanity is Justified on the Cross:
1:3 Blessed be God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with all the spiritual blessings of heaven in Christ. 1:4 Before the world was made, he chose us, chose us in Christ, to be holy and spotless, and to live through love in his presence, 1:5 determining that we should become his adopted sons, through Jesus Christ for his own kind purposes, 1:6 to make us praise the glory of his grace, his free gift to us in the Beloved, 1:7 in whom, through his blood, we gain our freedom, the forgiveness of our sins. Such is the richness of the grace 1:8 which he has showered on us in all wisdom and insight. (Ephesians)
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The problem people have is with the Unfolding of this “predestination.” Allowing only man’s (name removed by moderator)ut we will fall into the Luther/Calvin or “xyz” understanding of all the predestination/double ps… yet, when we follow Scriptures we find that while all humanity is Justified not all of humanity cooperate with God to Receive His Grace:
1:11 He came to his own domain and his own people did not accept him. 1:12 But to all who did accept him he gave power to become children of God, to all who believe in the name of him 1:13 who was born not out of human stock or urge of the flesh or will of man but of God himself.
3:14 as Moses lifted up the serpent in the desert, 3:15 so that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him. 3:16 Yes, God loved the world so much that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not be lost but may have eternal life. 3:17 For God sent his Son into the world not to condemn the world, but so that through him the world might be saved. 3:18 No one who believes in him will be condemned; but whoever refuses to believe is condemned already, because he has refused to believe in the name of God’s only Son. 3:19 On these grounds is sentence pronounced: that though the light has come into the world men have shown they prefer darkness to the light because their deeds were evil. 3:20 And indeed, everybody who does wrong hates the light and avoids it, for fear his actions should be exposed; 3:21 but the man who lives by the truth comes out into the light, so that it may be plainly seen that what he does is done in God;’ (John)
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Maran atha!

Angel
 
SnoopSword said:
“The FIGHT taking place between CATHOLICISM and FREEMASONRY is a FIGHT to the very DEATH, ceaseless and merciless.” (Grand Orient of France P. 183. 1892, and in Supreme Council No. 85, page 48.)

“TO FIGHT AGAINST PAPACY (Catholicism) IS A SOCIAL NECESSITY AND CONSTITUTES THE CONSTANT DUTY OF FREEMASONRY.” - (Masonic International Congress, Brussels 1904, pg 132 of the report).

“Our FINAL END is that of Voltaire and of the French Revolution, the DESTRUCTION FOREVER of CATHOLICISM and even of the Christian idea , which, if left standing on the ruins of ROME, would be the resuscitation of Christianity later on." (Masonic Blueprint of Alta Vendita early 19th Century)

“NOTHING that can be NAMED is MORE REPUGNANT to MASONRY than ’POPERY’ and ‘PRIESTCRAFT’, NOTHING to be more carefully GUARDED AGAINST , and this has ALWAYS been WELL UNDERSTOOD by ALL SKILLFUL MASTERS " (Freemason’s Chronicle, 1887, I. 35).
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Wow!

…and “Catholics” still question whether it is wrong or not to follow freemasonry?

Maran atha!

Angel
 
jcrichton said:
3:18 No one who believes in him will be condemned; but whoever refuses to believe is condemned already, because he has refused to believe in the name of God’s only Son.
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Yeah I know what your saying about all are predestined etc… I guess my definition of predestined/foreknown and such might be different. I remember when researching the fewness of the saved I came across mentions of predestined souls. Also once one of the Saints mentioned that a love for Mary was a sign of predestination. I cant remember who said it though… Okay I just searched and found a quote:

" . . let us bear in mind that unless we are humble we shall not only do no good, but we shall not be saved. “Unless you . . . become as little children, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.” In order, then, to enter into the kingdom of heaven, we must become children, not in age, but in humility. St. Gregory says that as pride is a sign of reprobation, so humility is a mark of predestination." - St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori, Doctor of the Church

For the estimations of the numbers I used the numbers:

-For the saved: 3 out of 10 people MAXIMUM. (Numbers based on word ‘few’. Also 1/3rd angels cast out of heaven. Could be 3 out of 100 but doubtful.)
-For the predestined: 1 out of 70 to 300 (ballpark figure on liberal side. based on clergy to general population ratio in several cities/states. Numbers have dropped drastically in the past generation or two, but God might be keeping the 1:70 ratio and using the predestined out in the layity possible (church militant?). I remember 1:700 was closer to the current reality but it was too far removed from historical numbers. Although Im just going off memory.)

I considered ‘saved’ to mean those who will go to the Christian ‘part of heaven’ reserved for us. The ‘predestined’ I chose were essentially Catholic clergy. I may have chose unmarried Priests only I cant remember. I hear that these people have the most highest spot in heaven. This is where the Saints would be who are activily doing works in heaven.

Actually, The Ethiopian seems to be a type of someone predestined. Right? Philip told to go see him. He was unmarried, trusted in Philips ordination/authority, believed in the sacraments ie: baptism, and no positive impediments in the way. How many adults get baptised that doubt the baptism itself?
 
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