Something i would like to share

[xmydreamsfadex]

not sure if this belongs here…
i’m friends with a church of christ pastor and he usually sends me his weekly emails that he has written and wanted to share something he wrote in it this week. the title of his paper this week is ‘do elders have authority?’
this is what he wrote: The other extreme warns us that disobeying or disagreeing with elders is on par with disobeying God since they supposedly exercise God’s authority on earth. Can you say the Pope?
i’m pretty upset that he would even send me this. so how many catholics here agree that if you disagree with the Pope you disagree with God?

 

[bluerose]

It depends on what we’re disagreeing about. If it’s an ex cathedra statement (like the Immaculate Conception) or a moral teaching that has been in place since the beginning (such as the Church’s teacihng on ABC and abortion), then yes, God speaks to His Church through his Vicar, the Pope.

But in matters like legalized gambling, gun control, and drinking (to name a few) Catholics can agree or disagree with the Pope.

I also have friends who belong to the Church of Christ and the funny thing is, I personally have noticed that VERY few of them dare to differ with their pastors on such matters (esp. the drinking and the gambling… most won’t even** look** at a deck of cards, much less play a game of canasta!) Maybe that varies according to WHICH Church of Christ they belong to, I don’t know.

All I know is that if the Pope ever makes an ex cathedra statement that Catholics should not support the Dallas Cowboys, my husband’s soul would be in serious jeopardy!

Just my two cents’ worth. Hope it helps!

 

[brotherhrolf]

When the Holy Father speaks ex cathedra, we must believe. The Holy Father speaks on a wide variety of subjects as they have done throughout history. I certainly take into account what the Holy Father says but unless he pronounces something as a matter of faith - ex cathedra, none of us are obliged to believe his thoughts as coming with the authority of God.

This is a classic misunderstanding of the authority of the Pope. American history is replete with this misunderstanding. It was one of the primary obstacles that JFK had to overcome in the presidential elections of 1960.

 

[Seminarian_Matt]

I doubt that a protestant like the “pastor” would understand that we must only believe what the Pope speaks ex cathedra. Maybe you should send him some reading material too and just maybe he will be sitting at a pew in Sunday Mass in the future.

 

[xmydreamsfadex]

i asked if he believes the Pope to have no authority and he wrote:
I do not find a position of pope in the Bible, therefore how could he have authority?

what should i tell him? that the idea of the trinity isn’t in the bible? that the earliest christians agree that there is a visable head of the Church beginning with Peter? that not everything we are supposed to believe could be found in the bible but in the traditions of the church?

 

[Seminarian_Matt]

Tell him to read the early Church Fathers. All of them believed in the papacy.

CCC:

1. “The Lord made Simon alone, whom he named Peter, the ‘rock’ of his Church. He gave him the keys of his Church and instituted him shepherd of the whole flock. [Cf. Mt 16:18-19; Jn 21:15-17] ‘The office of binding and loosing which was given to Peter was also assigned to the college of apostles united to its head.’[LG 22 # 2.] This pastoral office of Peter and the other apostles belongs to the Church’s very foundation and is continued by the bishops under the primacy of the Pope.”.

1. “The Pope, Bishop of Rome and Peter’s successor, ‘is the perpetual and visible source and foundation of the unity both of the bishops and of the whole company of the faithful.’[LG 23.] 'For the Roman Pontiff, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church has full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered.”.

1. “The college or body of bishops has no authority unless united with the Roman Pontiff. Peter’s successor, as its head.” As such, this college has “supreme and full authority over the universal Church, but this power cannot be exercised without the agreement of the Roman Pontiff.”

1. “The Pope enjoys, by divine institution, supreme, full, immediate, and universal power in the care of souls.”.

Something that I have previous written:

In the Acts of the Apostles, Peter is the spokesmen and always speaks for the group. People would lay in the streets just wanting Peter’s shadow to fall on them (Acts 5:15). We clearly see that St. Peter was given a higher authority than the other disciples. My priest said he was the most worthy to be Pope. Why? Because Peter, before he knew Jesus, said, “Depart from me, Lord, for I am a sinful man” (Lk 5:8). Humility is the answer to following God. Through humility we are raised up and can hope to be perfect in Christ. For Jesus said, “You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is Perfect” (Matthew 5:48). This perfection is complete only through humility and St. Peter achieved it.

St. Peter was the first pope - the one that Christ founded His Church upon (Matthew 16:18-20).

 

[mchium]

You could also buy him a copy of the book: Jesus, Peter & The Keys / A Scriptural Handbook On The Papacy

If he actually read it, you’d have him!

:tiphat:

 

[Unitas]

i asked if he believes the Pope to have no authority and he wrote:
I do not find a position of pope in the Bible, therefore how could he have authority?

what should i tell him? that the idea of the trinity isn’t in the bible? that the earliest christians agree that there is a visable head of the Church beginning with Peter? that not everything we are supposed to believe could be found in the bible but in the traditions of the church?

You got it.

There’s a glaring double-standard you need to expose.

So which is the sole final authority on christianity? The bible or the church elders? He could just as well turn the question around to the pope, but Catholics don’t hold the bible to be the sole authority as protestants do.

If you need elders to interpret scripture for you then the bible obviously isn’t the sole authority. If the perspicuity of scripture is the sole authority then you don’t need elders.

Hypocritical? I think so.

 

[Pope_Noah_I]

It depends on what we’re disagreeing about. If it’s an ex cathedra statement (like the Immaculate Conception) or a moral teaching that has been in place since the beginning (such as the Church’s teacihng on ABC and abortion), then yes, God speaks to His Church through his Vicar, the Pope.

But in matters like legalized gambling, gun control, and drinking (to name a few) Catholics can agree or disagree with the Pope.

I also have friends who belong to the Church of Christ and the funny thing is, I personally have noticed that VERY few of them dare to differ with their pastors on such matters (esp. the drinking and the gambling… most won’t even** look** at a deck of cards, much less play a game of canasta!) Maybe that varies according to WHICH Church of Christ they belong to, I don’t know.

All I know is that if the Pope ever makes an ex cathedra statement that Catholics should not support the Dallas Cowboys, my husband’s soul would be in serious jeopardy!

Just my two cents’ worth. Hope it helps!

So technically, I don’t have to agree with Theology of the Body?

 

[bear06]

Pastor Aeternus lays out where our obedience lies and “no” it’s not just in ex-cathedra pronouncements. It’s also not in the Pope’s choice of breakfast foods so please don’t make this straw argument. It’s annoying.

ewtn.com/faith/teachings/papae1.htm

 

[THurifer2]

The pope is dead wrong on at least one thing and I totally disagree with him about it.

What is it that I think he is wrong about? Well, I saw a picture of B-16 drinking a glass of wheat beer. I have heard that he says wheat beer tastes good… HE IS DEAD WRONG and I find it scandalous that a German such as himself would defy the brewing German purity law which infallibly states that beer can only be made of Barley, water and yeast. Its almost as if he has gone Richard McBrein on his taste in Beer.

 

[Seminarian_Matt]

Let’s look at Scripture. Point this out to the “pastor”. What is the pillar of truth? Is it the Scriptures? No.

Then, what is the pillar of truth? Well it is the Church!! “But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth” (1 Timothy 3:15).

 

[Nita]

So technically, I don’t have to agree with Theology of the Body?

No Noah, you don’t have to agree with Theology of the Body. It’s not “infallible” teaching. But it’s wonderful teaching on the Pope’s part and a gift to all who are willing to receive it.

Nita

 

[Unitas]

The pope is dead wrong on at least one thing and I totally disagree with him about it.

What is it that I think he is wrong about? Well, I saw a picture of B-16 drinking a glass of wheat beer. I have heard that he says wheat beer tastes good… HE IS DEAD WRONG and I find it scandalous that a German such as himself would defy the brewing German purity law which infallibly states that beer can only be made of Barley, water and yeast. Its almost as if he has gone Richard McBrein on his taste in Beer.

1. BLESSING OF BEER

P: Our help is in the name of the Lord.
All: Who made heaven and earth.
P: The Lord be with you.
All: May He also be with you.

Let us pray.
Lord, bless + this creature, beer, which by your kindness and
power has been produced from kernels of grain, and let it be a
healthful drink for mankind. Grant that whoever drinks it with
thanksgiving to your holy name may find it a help in body and in
soul; through Christ our Lord.
All: Amen.

It is sprinkled with holy water.

The Roman Ritual just doesn’t say which kind though.

 

[Bishopite]

i asked if he believes the Pope to have no authority and he wrote:
I do not find a position of pope in the Bible, therefore how could he have authority?

what should i tell him? that the idea of the trinity isn’t in the bible? that the earliest christians agree that there is a visable head of the Church beginning with Peter? that not everything we are supposed to believe could be found in the bible but in the traditions of the church?

That’s a good start. He is playing semantic games here it seems by using the the words not in the Bible argument even though he himself would admit that he believes certain words not found in the Bible. He would, I’m sure, conveniently admit that the words Trinity, incarnation, hypostatic union, Bible and original sin aren’t in the Bible either, so does that make them false??
Note: Some Church of Christ members don’t accept original sin, some do, so he may or may not believe in that theological concept either; so much for sola scriptura, eh?
Just because a word isn’t in the Bible doesn’t make that word false; we ALL use specific words which explain theological truths (i.e., Trinity) even though the words themselves are found specifically in the Bible; Pope is no different.

Ask him, since the word Pope isn’t found in the Bible and according to him that is the criteria which makes something wrong, then why does he adhere to Scripture alone (sola scriptura) even though those words are NOT found in the Bible?

 

[Bishopite]

1. BLESSING OF BEER

P: Our help is in the name of the Lord.
All: Who made heaven and earth.
P: The Lord be with you.
All: May He also be with you.

Let us pray.
Lord, bless + this creature, beer, which by your kindness and
power has been produced from kernels of grain, and let it be a
healthful drink for mankind. Grant that whoever drinks it with
thanksgiving to your holy name may find it a help in body and in
soul; through Christ our Lord.
All: Amen.

It is sprinkled with holy water.

The Roman Ritual just doesn’t say which kind though.

Ah…I’m having a beer as I type. And thanks for the words of blessing…burp sorry! God bless the Fundamentalists (of which I was once one), for they know not what they miss.

 

[Randy_Carson]

i asked if he believes the Pope to have no authority and he wrote:
I do not find a position of pope in the Bible, therefore how could he have authority?

what should i tell him?

Peter, The Rock and the Keeper of the Keys

"When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?” They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?” Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” (Matthew 16:13-19)

• Peter’s understanding that Jesus was the Son of God did not come from working it out on his own. Instead, God the Father infused this revelation into Peter’s mind thus imprinting His seal of approval upon this humble fisherman. Jesus recognized that Simon had already been anointed by His Father in this way and declared, “Blessed are you.” The Father had blessed Simon with knowledge of the Son.
• Jesus gave him the name, “Kepha”, an Aramaic word that means “rock”. In the original, the passage would read, “You are kepha, and on this kepha I will build my church.” Jesus also announces the establishment of His Church, and clearly delineates Kepha as its leader. Although Jesus spoke Aramaic, the New Testament was written in Greek, and “Kepha” would have been translated into the Greek words for “rock” which are “petra” or “petros”. “Petra” is the feminine form of the masculine word, “petros”. Petros is more suitable for a man. Therefore, from “petros” we derive the English name, “Peter”. For us modern readers then, Jesus’ pronouncement reads, “You are rock and upon this rock I will build my church.” What is it about Peter’s character that caused Jesus to compare him to something as solid as rock. Isn’t this the same Peter who Jesus called “Satan” just a few verses later? (cf. Mt 16:23) Isn’t this the same Peter who would deny the Lord three times after his arrest? (cf. Lk 22:34) Surely this unstable character is anything but solid rock upon which a Church could be built; yet, Jesus sees something deeper in Peter’s character, and His choice would be vindicated when Peter ultimately received a martyr’s crown via crucifixion.
• The Church to be built was not of human origin. Jesus did not say, “You are Peter, and upon this rock you must build a church.” He said, “I will build my church.” Inaugurated by the Father, built by the Son and led by the Holy Spirit, the Church is a human institution of divine origin.
• For this reason, “the gates of Hell will not overcome” the Church, and for over 2,000 years the Church, lead by the Apostolic Successors of Peter, has faithfully born witness to the gospel.
• Jesus gives to Peter “the keys of the kingdom of heaven”. This alludes to the prophecy of Isaiah that reads, "In that day I will summon my servant, Eliakim son of Hilkiah. I will clothe him with your robe and fasten your sash around him and hand your authority over to him. He will be a father to those who live in Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. I will place on his shoulder the key to the house of David; what he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open.” (Isaiah 22:22) In ancient times, a king might choose a second in command or prime minister who literally wore a large key as a symbol of his office and who spoke with the authority of the king. Jesus gives Peter the authority to speak in His name and extends his authority beyond the earthly realm when he gives Peter the “keys to the kingdom of heaven.”
  (cont.)

 

[Randy_Carson]

• Finally, Jesus reveals the infallible nature of the Church when he declares, “whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." What does this passage mean? There are two possible interpretations. First, if God reciprocates the binding and loosing of Church on earth with an identical binding or loosing in heaven, then the binding and loosing done on earth must of necessity be free from all error. If this were not so, God would have put himself in the impossible situation of affirming that which is not true. A second interpretation would be that the authority of the church is to carry out the will and decisions of God upon earth as they have been established in heaven. This is in perfect accord with the way Jesus instructed us to pray: “Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven” (Matthew 6:10). Thus, the Church must either be prevented from teaching error in order that God may ratify its decisions in heaven or the Church must be proclaiming here below those things that are already true in heaven. Either way, the decisions and actions of the Church can be seen to be infallible with regard to matters of faith and morals. Anything less would make Jesus a liar for He also declared, “But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth” (John 16:13) and “I am with you always till the end of the world.” (Matthew 28:20)

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[Randy_Carson]

Matthew 16:18-19
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

---

Luke 22:31
“Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift youa] as wheat. 32But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers.”

a]The Greek is plural; Satan wanted to test all the Apostles. In verse 35, Jesus states that he has prayed for Simon alone (the Greek is singular) that Simon might strengthen the others. This is another example of Peter’s primacy within the Church.****

John 21:15-19
When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon son of John, do you truly love me more than these?” “Yes, Lord,” he said, “you know that I love you.” Jesus said, “Feed my lambs.” Again Jesus said, “Simon son of John, do you truly love me?” He answered, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” Jesus said, “Take care of my sheep.” The third time he said to him, “Simon son of John, do you love me?” Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, “Do you love me?” He said, “Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you.” Jesus said, “Feed my sheep. I tell you the truth, when you were younger you dressed yourself and went where you wanted; but when you are old you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go.” Jesus said this to indicate the kind of death by which Peter would glorify God. Then he said to him, “Follow me!”

Is Jesus the Good Shepherd?

Did he just give the responsibility for caring for and feeding the flock to Peter?

There is one flock and one shepherd. Peter was left in charge.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[runandsew]

The pope is dead wrong on at least one thing and I totally disagree with him about it.

What is it that I think he is wrong about? Well, I saw a picture of B-16 drinking a glass of wheat beer. I have heard that he says wheat beer tastes good… HE IS DEAD WRONG and I find it scandalous that a German such as himself would defy the brewing German purity law which infallibly states that beer can only be made of Barley, water and yeast. Its almost as if he has gone Richard McBrein on his taste in Beer.

I think that you are dead wrong here, B-16 is representing the whole world wide church, not just the church of Germany.
Therefore it would be correct of him to drink a hefeweizen, since it is the best beer in the world. And we should only offer the best to God.

As to that pastor, why does he believe that everything a christian believes is only found in the bible?
You might not see the title “Pope” in the bible, but you see Peter being singled out by Jesus, and being the leader of the Apostles in the book of Acts.