Something is nagging me

[angell1]

i used to think that God created souls and then decided who went to heaven or hell based on what happened during our lives.

now i realize that that doen’st subscribe omniscience to God at all because if he is omniscient, he would know who would be going to which place even before he created each soul.

this concept makes me a bit uncomfortable since it’s like he created people knowing they wre going to reject him anyways.

which means he created adam and eve knowing that would disobey him 100%. not just the possibility of it happening but he had no doubt it would happen.

anyone have any insight, i am struggling with this. the only parallel i can think of is that perhaps, God has the power to limit parts of his own knowing and see how we do at the end of our earthly trial. kind of like jesus saying that only the father knew when he would return and he didn’t, even he is God himself. he somehow managed to limit his knowledge in this regard. though maybe that was just because he was in human form.

i have heard the free will argument many times also but that just seems better to fit the possibility of people going to hell. not, mrs. smith across is going to hell for sure and he knew that before even creating her.

i’m not saying we’re predestined to go there but he does know the outcome. kind of lime having a child that you knew absolutely was going to commit suicide or do some other bad thing. or making a machine that you knew wouldn’t work in the end

 

[Della]

While free will certainly plays a part, it’s not the whole story, as you say. The answer lies in God’s gift of life. As each of us comes into being he certainly knows us through and through, but this does not mean he willed us to be evil or did nothing while we go wrong. He acts on our behalf all through our lives, calling us to repentance, hoping we will respond before we harden ourselves into people who can no longer recognize his call or even want to hear it. Should he withdraw his gift of life because we abuse it? Should he not love us even if we don’t want him to? We have to take responsibility for our own actions when God reaches out to us in creation, through the Church, through family and friends, etc. He gives and gives and we take and take, but do we acknowledge his gifts and do we make good use of them? That is the real question, I think.

 

[DCNBILL]

i used to think that God created souls and then decided who went to heaven or hell based on what happened during our lives.

Correct, but more on what they do with their lives.

now i realize that that doen’st subscribe omniscience to God at all because if he is omniscient, he would know who would be going to which place even before he created each soul.

Correct.

this concept makes me a bit uncomfortable since it’s like he created people knowing they were going to reject him anyways.

Again correct.

which means he created adam and eve knowing that would disobey him 100%. not just the possibility of it happening but he had no doubt it would happen.

Once more correct, Jesus was plan A to begin with, kind of like; Creation for the sake of salvation. (aint that a kick in the head)

anyone have any insight, i am struggling with this. the only parallel i can think of is that perhaps, God has the power to limit parts of his own knowing and see how we do at the end of our earthly trial. kind of like jesus saying that only the father knew when he would return and he didn’t, even he is God himself. he somehow managed to limit his knowledge in this regard. though maybe that was just because he was in human form.

I do not think that God can hide anything from Himself, that would be absurd. He actually did create beings that He knew would reject Him and His love, it was the only way He could create beings that would accept Him and His love.

i have heard the free will argument many times also but that just seems better to fit the possibility of people going to hell. not, mrs. smith across is going to hell for sure and he knew that before even creating her.

yep

i’m not saying we’re predestined to go there but he does know the outcome. kind of lime having a child that you knew absolutely was going to commit suicide or do some other bad thing. or making a machine that you knew wouldn’t work in the end

Well as stated above the only way that God can create beings that love Him freely is to create them with the possibility of rejecting Him. Wow, that is Love, true self giving and creating love. I know how I feel when I am rejected by someone I love and I have never created any of them.

 

[Euwe]

i used to think that God created souls and then decided who went to heaven or hell based on what happened during our lives.

now i realize that that doen’st subscribe omniscience to God at all because if he is omniscient, he would know who would be going to which place even before he created each soul.

this concept makes me a bit uncomfortable since it’s like he created people knowing they wre going to reject him anyways.

which means he created adam and eve knowing that would disobey him 100%. not just the possibility of it happening but he had no doubt it would happen.

anyone have any insight, i am struggling with this. the only parallel i can think of is that perhaps, God has the power to limit parts of his own knowing and see how we do at the end of our earthly trial. kind of like jesus saying that only the father knew when he would return and he didn’t, even he is God himself. he somehow managed to limit his knowledge in this regard. though maybe that was just because he was in human form.

i have heard the free will argument many times also but that just seems better to fit the possibility of people going to hell. not, mrs. smith across is going to hell for sure and he knew that before even creating her.

i’m not saying we’re predestined to go there but he does know the outcome. kind of lime having a child that you knew absolutely was going to commit suicide or do some other bad thing. or making a machine that you knew wouldn’t work in the end

Each individual by their own choice chooses their eternal destiny.
Their eternal destiny being hell or heaven.

God’s knowledge of their choice in no way influences that individual decision.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I don’t really get too bogged down in a mere mortal trying to figure out an omni-whatever God.

But I did click on this thread because from the title I thought my wife was bothering you.

 

[angell1]

Each individual by their own choice chooses their eternal destiny.
Their eternal destiny being hell or heaven.

God’s knowledge of their choice in no way influences that individual decision.

well in a way it does, because the one thing they didn’t choose was to be made in the first place

 

[Mumbles140]

Look at it in the light of why God created us - His Love was so infinite, He created beings to reflect His Love. However, love without choice is not love, so He bestowed on man free will, with the full knowledge that many would betray His Love. But, by giving man free will, the love that was reflected by those who strove to return His Love was far greater than the betrayal by the others, and so God offered up Himself so that those who shared in His Love and followed His Word would receive everlasting joy.

I’m not sure if you are a parent, but imagine the decision a parent must make today about having a child. On a global level, there is a risk that child can be hurt, or even hurt others, regardless of all the instruction and help you offer them. There is also the risk that they will direct that hurt at you specifically. You know all of these risks, but are still considering having a child. Then you think about all the greatness they can achieve, how they can fulfill all of their dreams using the tools and guidance you provided for them. How much they will love you for all the love you gave to them, and how they can pass that love on to their spouse and their children. Doesn’t that sound like a pretty amazing thing?

 

[angell1]

Correct, but more on what they do with their lives.

Correct.

Again correct.

Once more correct, Jesus was plan A to begin with, kind of like; Creation for the sake of salvation. (aint that a kick in the head)

I do not think that God can hide anything from Himself, that would be absurd. He actually did create beings that He knew would reject Him and His love, it was the only way He could create beings that would accept Him and His love.

yep

Well as stated above the only way that God can create beings that love Him freely is to create them with the possibility of rejecting Him. Wow, that is Love, true self giving and creating love. I know how I feel when I am rejected by someone I love and I have never created any of them.

well it’s more the possibility of rejecting, he has full knowledge of the fact even before he does it. like, “i’m going to create jane even though i know she will choose to reject me and will go to hell, but i’m going to do it anywyas”

 

[angell1]

Look at it in the light of why God created us - His Love was so infinite, He created beings to reflect His Love. However, love without choice is not love, so He bestowed on man free will, with the full knowledge that many would betray His Love. But, by giving man free will, the love that was reflected by those who strove to return His Love was far greater than the betrayal by the others, and so God offered up Himself so that those who shared in His Love and followed His Word would receive everlasting joy.

I’m not sure if you are a parent, but imagine the decision a parent must make today about having a child. On a global level, there is a risk that child can be hurt, or even hurt others, regardless of all the instruction and help you offer them. There is also the risk that they will direct that hurt at you specifically. You know all of these risks, but are still considering having a child. Then you think about all the greatness they can achieve, how they can fulfill all of their dreams using the tools and guidance you provided for them. How much they will love you for all the love you gave to them, and how they can pass that love on to their spouse and their children. Doesn’t that sound like a pretty amazing thing?

that’s what i used to think but i relized that it’s not really the same comparison. yes, there is a risk but we are finite beings, we don’t actually have that knowledge. if we were God, it would be like “my third child james is going to become a murderer 100% but i’ll just bring him in to the world anyways”

 

[angell1]

While free will certainly plays a part, it’s not the whole story, as you say. The answer lies in God’s gift of life. As each of us comes into being he certainly knows us through and through, but this does not mean he willed us to be evil or did nothing while we go wrong. He acts on our behalf all through our lives, calling us to repentance, hoping we will respond before we harden ourselves into people who can no longer recognize his call or even want to hear it. Should he withdraw his gift of life because we abuse it? Should he not love us even if we don’t want him to? We have to take responsibility for our own actions when God reaches out to us in creation, through the Church, through family and friends, etc. He gives and gives and we take and take, but do we acknowledge his gifts and do we make good use of them? That is the real question, I think.

except that he knew that when he created mike, for example, that he would ultimately reject him. it’s not like “i’ll create him knowing that he might reject me” now, he absolutely knew it would happen. or just adam and eve, even before he made them he must have known they were going to sin for sure. it wasn’t like “well, let’s just try and see how it goes”

 

[Mumbles140]

that’s what i used to think but i relized that it’s not really the same comparison. yes, there is a risk but we are finite beings, we don’t actually have that knowledge. if we were God, it would be like “my third child james is going to become a murderer 100% but i’ll just bring him in to the world anyways”

So if your first child John would cure cancer and your second child Joe would be a martyr for the faith, would you choose to have children at all?

 

[angell1]

So if your first child John would cure cancer and your second child Joe would be a martyr for the faith, would you choose to have children at all?

no, because as God, you are also controlling the ones you create, he could just say, “i’ll create them and see how it goes” except it’s not exactly like that. that’s more like what parents go through while having kids, you don’t know exactly how they will turn out but you hope for the best. as God, he already knows the choice before it’s even been made

 

[Mumbles140]

no, because as God, you are also controlling the ones you create, he could just say, “i’ll create them and see how it goes” except it’s not exactly like that. that’s more like what parents go through while having kids, you don’t know exactly how they will turn out but you hope for the best. as God, he already knows the choice before it’s even been made

My hypothetical meant if you had full knowledge of the three, would you still have children? I get you are not omniscient, but pretend you are. Would you have children if one is a healer, the other is a martyr, and the third is a killer?

 

[Euwe]

well in a way it does, because the one thing they didn’t choose was to be made in the first place

Their biological parents made that choice for them.

No one makes the choice to exist. Their parents make that choice.

 

[angell1]

My hypothetical meant if you had full knowledge of the three, would you still have children? I get you are not omniscient, but pretend you are. Would you have children if one is a healer, the other is a martyr, and the third is a killer?

if i knew what order they would happen in, then perhaps there would be no need for the killer. anyways, i guess it’s a question no one has the answer to. what about evangelization though? what’s if the point if people are going to accept or reject god regardless and there’s nothing we can do to change that

 

[Euwe]

no, because as God, you are also controlling the ones you create, he could just say, “i’ll create them and see how it goes” except it’s not exactly like that. that’s more like what parents go through while having kids, you don’t know exactly how they will turn out but you hope for the best. as God, he already knows the choice before it’s even been made

God knows the outcome of the choice, the choice that they individually made.

You’re trying to connect knowledge of the choice to the making of the choice

Knowledge of the choice and deciding to make whatever the choice is, are mutually exclusive.

 

[angell1]

Their biological parents made that choice for them.

No one makes the choice to exist. Their parents make that choice.

isn’t God the one who plants the soul at conception though? as far as i know, that’s not passed on biologically

 

[angell1]

God knows the outcome of the choice, the choice that they individually made.

You’re trying to connect knowledge of the choice to the making of the choice

Knowledge of the choice and deciding to make whatever the choice is, are mutually exclusive.

but he’s the one who controls everything. isn’t it a bit like predestination if he knows someone will end up in hell before ven making them?

 

[Euwe]

but he’s the one who controls everything. isn’t it a bit like predestination if he knows someone will end up in hell before ven making them?

Actually He doesn’t control everything.

If He did control everything, Man would not have access to free will.

 

[Nita]

Their biological parents made that choice for them.

No one makes the choice to exist. Their parents make that choice.

Human parents do not generate a human soul. God does. Only the infusion of a human soul enlivens the body conceived in the womb. If God does not make a human soul and infuse it into the fertilized ovum, no child results.