Something out of nothing

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PRmerger said:
Egg-zactly right, STT.

The definition of “nothing” has to change to be “something” in order for you to claim that something came out of nothing.

QED.
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Your conclusion is not correct. Can you imagine something which has no shape, color, etc.?
 
STT said:
Yes.

Particles are simply the excitation modes of zero field.

Vacuum state to me is the state of zero field.
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Well!

Imagine if I said, “I’ve discovered a new organism! This!”



You say: emm…that’s a turtle.

I say: No. I don’t view that as a turtle. To me, this is a new organism.

What would your response be?
 
STT said:
So, do you agree that we can have something out of nothing given the second definition?
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I’ll concede the point if you would agree that I could re-define this animal to be a new organism I’ve discovered.



But no intellectually honest person would do such a thing, right?
 
STT said:
That is ambiguous.
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No, it’s absolutely not ambiguous.

I think, STT, that what I’ve walked you through, socratically, is the conclusion that was evident from the very beginning: creation of something out of nothing is the trump card of the Believer.
 
PRmerger said:
No, it’s absolutely not ambiguous.
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It is because such a thing cannot exist. Why? Because there is no point before the act of creation.
PRmerger said:
I think, STT, that what I’ve walked you through, socratically, is the conclusion that was evident from the very beginning: creation of something out of nothing is the trump card of the Believer.
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I don’t think so. Lets open another line of discussion.
  1. I think we can agree upon definition of God who is the creator. Could we? Of course yes.
  2. Could we agree upon the fact that God as the creator can decide about the act of creation? Of course yes.
  3. Could we agree that there are two acts involved in creation of universe, namely the act of decision made by God and the act of creation when the second one follows the first one? Of course yes. But how such a thing is possible in timeless picture when there is no time and only one act is allowed? This means that we are left with the act of creation only since we exist. Let me know if you agree?
  4. But what is the difference between God as it is defined and Quantum Fluctuation if God cannot decide?
 
Since some time and many posts have passed since my last exchange, I’ll depart from what was said before (though there seemed to be some confusion about the definition of “caused”) and resume here, at the end of the thread.
STT said:
I don’t think so. Lets open another line of discussion.
  1. I think we can agree upon definition of God who is the creator. Could we? Of course yes.
  2. Could we agree upon the fact that God as the creator can decide about the act of creation? Of course yes.
  3. Could we agree that there are two acts involved in creation of universe, namely the act of decision made by God and the act of creation when the second one follows the first one? Of course yes. But how such a thing is possible in timeless picture when there is no time and only one act is allowed? This means that we are left with the act of creation only since we exist. Let me know if you agree?
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No, the act of creation was an act of will outside of time. There is no need for it to have been two acts at two points in time.

When God created time, He was capable of acting within time even though He is outside of time. The fact is that God sees all time at once, so all of His apparent choices in time are really just acts of His will in the eternal present (from God’s point of view).

Additionally, the only reason we can speak of God’s actions as past, present, and future, is because from our perspective, these actions occur in time. This is not how God sees it, though.
 
STT said:
It is because such a thing cannot exist. Why? Because there is no point before the act of creation.

I don’t think so. Lets open another line of discussion.
  1. I think we can agree upon definition of God who is the creator. Could we? Of course yes.
  2. Could we agree upon the fact that God as the creator can decide about the act of creation? Of course yes.
  3. Could we agree that there are two acts involved in creation of universe, namely the act of decision made by God and the act of creation when the second one follows the first one? Of course yes. But how such a thing is possible in timeless picture when there is no time and only one act is allowed? This means that we are left with the act of creation only since we exist. Let me know if you agree?
  4. But what is the difference between God as it is defined and Quantum Fluctuation if God cannot decide?
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God is “outside” time.
 
dshix said:
No, the act of creation was an act of will outside of time. There is no need for it to have been two acts at two points in time.
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You didn’t get my point so I repeat it again: There are two acts involved in creation of universe, act of decision and act of creation. God cannot possibly act without deciding. Could he?
dshix said:
When God created time, He was capable of acting within time even though He is outside of time. The fact is that God sees all time at once, so all of His apparent choices in time are really just acts of His will in the eternal present (from God’s point of view).
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That I know.
dshix said:
Additionally, the only reason we can speak of God’s actions as past, present, and future, is because from our perspective, these actions occur in time. This is not how God sees it, though.
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That I know too.
 
STT said:
That I know and that is the problem. You didn’t get my point.
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I do get it.
I don’t think you understand the ramifications of God not being subject to time.
It renders the questions a little bit moot.
 
God didn’t so much decide so much as He knew and willed and acted. All of that was one, for within God knowledge, will, and power all refer to the same thing, not separate faculties. He doesn’t think or process or even know in the way human’s do. There are no such functions within God. There was no time period over which a decision was made.
 
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