Something that causes doubt

[tafan2]

But i don’t believe in intelligent design. I don’t believe that life was put on earth by God ( a one time miracle ), but rather life itself arose through the natural order that God created.

I also do not believe in intelligent design, but I would say life, including us, arouse through the natural order because God ordained it to do so as part of His plan.

 

[MPat]

I was thinking, here we have the Bible, and the way that Bible is written, while it might not strictly say it, makes it seems like we have the world where we are, down here, and God, up there. It doesn’t make it sound like there is much else outside that, and yet we know that are many other planets orbiting around a sun in our solar system and even other suns and planets orbiting around them in the universe in general.

So, as in Psalm 8:4-5?

"For I will behold thy heavens, the works of thy fingers: the moon and the stars which thou hast founded.

What is man that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man that thou visitest him?"

That is a reason to wonder, to thank God, not to panic. Yes, Bible does not refer to any other planets directly. But then, Bible does not refer to much of Earth’s surface directly either - it does not directly refer to America, Australia, China, Russia… And yet, it does not mean that God had no plan concerning them. For that matter, there were uninhabited areas as well, for example, Antarctica. And that is not a reason to panic either.

 

[tafan2]

I 100 percent believe that life exists on other worlds

Rational beings such as ourselves? How can you be so sure. We have zero evidence of other beings created in God’s image. Zero.

Now, we do have a two purely philosophical arguments that are simply based on the universe’s size, but that is all. If one is a believer in a creator, the argument is: why would God created such a vast universe just for humans?. If one is a materialist, the argument is based on a flawed idea of probability. Or one can hold both arguments.

But those arguments are utterly unconvincing to me. I fully accept we might not be alone, it’s within God’s power to create billions of other planets with intelligent beings. But I do not think He did.

 

[tommy37]

I am a convert to Christianity and then to Catholicism so this was at one time a point of doubt for me as well. The size of our universe is for some a strike against the biblical worldview. How dare we think this is all for us! How arrogant!

In time, I came to learn a few things. We have to remember that according to the Big Bang theory of the beginning of the universe it wasn’t always so big. In fact, according to the scientists, in the beginning, the universe was the size of an atomic nucleus! You think the current size of the universe blows your mind? What about the idea of it coming from a single atom? Billions of stars and galaxies all coming from a single atom that expanded into what we have now. That’s crazy!

There seems to be a very mysterious connection between the really big and the really small. Hold your hands together as if you’re holding a basketball. There was a time when our universe was the size of a basketball. Does it seem too big now? If anything, it seems too small, right? But that’s the mystery of it!

I can remember years ago reading that, according to scientists, our universe had to be as big as it is in order for a planet like ours to exist. Scientists are amazed to find an uncanny amount of “fine-tuning” that exists in the world. There are hundreds of physical laws that seem “set up” in just the right way to allow life on our planet to exist.

For instance, just to name a few, the level of oxygen on Earth, the distance of the sun from the Earth, and the rate of the expansion of the universe. If any of these and many other factors were slightly different, such as the sun being just a little closer to us or further away, life could never have come to exist. This phenomenon has caused many scientists to come to believe in an intelligent Mind that must have started it all.

There’s just so much wisdom present throughout the natural world for them to conclude that it was somehow all an accident. That’s why the famous physicist Freeman Dyson could say:

“The more I examine the universe and the details of its architecture the more evidence I find that the universe in some sense must have known we were coming.”

Many other influential scientists such as Charles Townes and Allan Sandage came to believe in Christianity. So maybe it needed to be as big as it is for us to be here.

Julian of Norwich recounts a vision she had where she was holding a hazelnut in her hand. She wondered “What is this?” God told her that this was all that was made! To us, the size of the universe is a big deal and we think: “Whoa, how can this be?” But to God it’s not really a big deal at all…just about the size of a nut to him. And of course, that brings us right back to the beginning with the universe starting out at the size of an atom and expanding into our immeasurably huge universe. (I often think of Jesus holding our universe in the palm of his hand.)

continued…

 

[tommy37]

continued…Sorry for the length…

Are we the only ones in the universe? Who knows? There could be others somewhere out there that God has contacted. I once read that it’s ok for Catholics to think that there might be other intelligent creatures out there as long as we hold that Christ’s sacrifice atoned for them as well. (I don’t remember where I read that.) I personally doubt that there are other creatures out there. I tend to see the rest of the universe as a type of “cosmic leftovers” that God allows to exist for awhile while we work out our salvation here on earth. In reality, most of it is just made up of rocks, gases, dust and burning orbs. Although it’s beautiful to look at!

Anyway, I hope this helps! God Bless!

 

[tafan2]

I once read that it’s ok for Catholics to think that there might be other intelligent creatures out there as long as we hold that Christ’s sacrifice atoned for them as well.

That would be poor theology IMO.

 

[Polak]

For instance, just to name a few, the level of oxygen on Earth, the distance of the sun from the Earth, and the rate of the expansion of the universe. If any of these and many other factors were slightly different, such as the sun being just a little closer to us or further away, life could never have come to exist.

Yes but non believers hit back at that with their monkeys with typewriters argument don’t they, that it may have been trial and error until it was eventually just right to create life.

 

[IWantGod]

I also do not believe in intelligent design, but I would say life, including us, arouse through the natural order because God ordained it to do so as part of His plan.

Just as God ordained that a planet needed to be in the Goldilocks zone before life could be an actuality. I think a natural process preceded life just as God ordained, rather than the idea that God decided to insert life into an environment.

But whether you agree with this or not will depend on what you think the importance of a natural order is in God’s Plan. I personally don’t think it makes much sense for there to be a natural order if he did not ordain from eternity that particular natures and forms with particular activities would arise within the activity of natural processes according to the laws of physics.

I don’t see creation as a sandbox in which life has been inserted, but rather i see creation as an out-pouring of possibilities which all function according to God’s plan.

 

[tafan2]

Just as God ordained that a planet needed to be in the Goldilocks zone before life could be an actuality. I think a natural process preceded life just as God ordained, rather than the idea that God decided to insert life into an environment.

Of course there were natural processes that preceeded life. All evidence points towards that.

 

[IWantGod]

Of course there were natural processes that preceeded life. All evidence points towards that.

What i mean to say is that life arises naturally from a process. It is not an intervention.

 

[tafan2]

I agree that its not an invention, God does not invent/design, He creates. Now, I am, for the most part a theistic evolutionist, but I cannot say one way or another if life started on its own via a natural process. We certainly have little idea how the most basic cell could have evolved from lifeless matter.

 

[nfinke]

I’ve thought of this before.

Eventually I came to the conclusion that God is infinite.

That means that He could have made us as small as atoms, or as large as galaxies, and we would still be infinitesimally small in comparison to Him. With that I’m mind, our size in relation to the universe God put us in isn’t really relevant, any more than the fact God made us smaller than a mountain is relevant. The important aspect of creation is our relationship to God, who by necessity is infinitely bigger than us. So you can’t really take our tiny-ness as contrast to how important God sees us. I don’t see this as a source of doubt anymore.

Also, God definitely could have different races on other planets, and designed the universe to such a size that contact between the various peoples just isn’t possible, so He didn’t bother to mention it in the Bible. Or maybe not. Maybe the reason God made all the (Essentially) junk in the universe is for some unknowable reason. But I don’t see how not knowing the inner workings of God’s mind should be a source of doubt either, especially on something as unrelated to morals as the number of stars in the sky.

 

[meltzerboy2]

An argument of a different sort may be how do we know that life elsewhere in a distant galaxy is based on the same biological and chemical conditions as it is on Earth? Can we assume that all (intelligent) life must be oxygen-based and so on?

 

[HomeschoolDad]

I once read that it’s ok for Catholics to think that there might be other intelligent creatures out there as long as we hold that Christ’s sacrifice atoned for them as well. (I don’t remember where I read that.)

That is sheer speculation and does not bind us to believe. It could be true — if they exist, they are as much part of creation as we are, and I’ve heard it said (don’t remember where) that the sin of Adam and Eve corrupted all creation. That may be true, or it may not be. Or they could never have sinned. Or they could still be in their own original sin and have not been redeemed. Or Christ could have come to their planet, incarnate as one of them, died for them in some way, and have then been resurrected. (Whether they would have anything resembling a Eucharist is unknowable.) The possibilities are endless.

Our Lord did tell us that He had other sheep who are not of this flock.

 

[tafan2]

Or Christ could have come to their planet, incarnate as one of them,

Is it not an article of faith that God the Son has two nature’s, human and divine? That’s two, not millions or billions,

 

[Isearch]

Ultimately, God creates these because He is free to do so. This is because there is nothing intrinsic in Him that requires Him to create at all.

 

[Isearch]

Intelligent life on other planets would still be considered humans in the classical definition of being human: a rational animal.

 

[Dan_Defender]

here we have the Bible, and the way that Bible is written, while it might not strictly say it, makes it seems like we have the world where we are, down here, and God, up there. It doesn’t make it sound like there is much else outside that, and yet we know that are many other planets orbiting around a sun in our solar system and even other suns and planets orbiting around them in the universe in general.

So? The Bible is not a catalog of the universe, not even a catalog of this earth. What is written there is what is necessary to know for our salvation, that’s all. There are no dinosaurs in the Bible, no China is ever mentioned, no octopuses… the list goes on

 

[HomeschoolDad]

Or Christ could have come to their planet, incarnate as one of them,

You make an excellent point that did not occur to me.

Perhaps his “human” nature would be the same nature as would exist in any mortal, incarnate ensouled rational being. In other words, “little green men” and us might both be “human” where the economy of salvation is concerned. A word or words other than “human” might need to be adopted to describe this nature — “rational ensouled incarnate nature”, perhaps? Too much of a mouthful?

 

[Freddy]

Polak:

here we have the Bible, and the way that Bible is written, while it might not strictly say it, makes it seems like we have the world where we are, down here, and God, up there. It doesn’t make it sound like there is much else outside that, and yet we know that are many other planets orbiting around a sun in our solar system and even other suns and planets orbiting around them in the universe in general.

So? The Bible is not a catalog of the universe, not even a catalog of this earth. What is written there is what is necessary to know for our salvation, that’s all. There are no dinosaurs in the Bible, no China is ever mentioned, no octopuses… the list goes on

When the bible was written it gave the impression that we were all that existed. It made sense. We were chosen. There was no need of anything else. Just a world and a sun. It was made for us. It served a purpose.

If that had actually been the case then that view would have been promoted as evidence for God. That He created us to love Him and why would we need anything else than planet earth. It would literally make no sense to have planets we couldn’t know. To have galaxies that we couldn’t even see. To have areas of existence that are forever beyond our reach.

It still makes no sense. God has created that which serves no purpose whatsoever.