Something that causes doubt

[lelinator]

Stop and think about what you just wrote, and what its implications are. If “only the tiniest fraction” was “ever available for us to look at”, then you have knowledge of these things that you never observed. That literally contradicts your assertion that “what is outside of the observable universe is, by definition, unknowable… we have no knowledge of it.”

You can see that you just asserted knowledge of things that are outside of the observable universe… right? So… either you’re wrong (about knowing about these things) or you’re wrong (about being able to know about these things).

Perhaps if you thought about this slightly differently. What if someone gave you a box filled with innumerable gifts specifically created for your edification. But it came with just one stipulation…you can never, ever look inside the box, or in any way determine what marvelous gifts it contains.

Would you really put any value in such a gift?

If so, I’ve got a box that I’d be willing to sell you.

 

[Gorgias]

Would you really put any value in such a gift?

The value in the gift wouldn’t be in my ability to use it, but in the knowledge that s/he is able to create such amazing things. Wouldn’t my heart swell two sizes, knowing that this ability exists in him/her?

If so, I’ve got a box that I’d be willing to sell you.

You’re willing to sell me a gift? Not give it? That says something disappointing…

 

[Freddy]

lelinator:

Would you really put any value in such a gift?

The value in the gift wouldn’t be in my ability to use it, but in the knowledge that s/he is able to create such amazing things. Wouldn’t my heart swell two sizes, knowing that this ability exists in him/her?

Amazing things? Who said they were amazing? You have no idea what’s in tbe box.

 

[Gorgias]

Amazing things? Who said they were amazing? You have no idea what’s in tbe box.

The thought experiment said “a box filled with innumerable gifts specifically created for your edification”. So… a box with a near infinite number of gifts? All specially created for me? And that doesn’t qualify as ‘amazing’ in your book?!?

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

Amazing things? Who said they were amazing? You have no idea what’s in tbe box.

The thought experiment said “a box filled with innumerable gifts specifically created for your edification”. So… a box with a near infinite number of gifts? All specially created for me? And that doesn’t qualify as ‘amazing’ in your book?!?

I also now notice that the thought experiment said that whatever was in tbe box was created for you. But that’s precisely one of the points that we’re arguing. All you have is a box. You don’t know what’s in it. You cannot open it. You cannot gain any knowledge of what might or might not be in there. So it cannot be for you. That’s a more accurate metaphor.

And you say that you are edified by what’s inside. That just seems odd.

 

[lelinator]

I also now notice that the thought experiment said that whatever was in tbe box was created for you.

You’re correct. I should have been more precise. Any claims about why the box was created, or any edifying powers that it may possess are purely speculative. But then again, I’m trying sell my box. Don’t go getting all technical on me.

There’s really, really great stuff in my box. Trust me.

 

[Freddy]

There’s really, really great stuff in my box. Trust me.

Yeah…about as far as I could throw it.

Warning: Crude language.

 

[Gorgias]

So it cannot be for you. That’s a more accurate metaphor.

Sooo… someone gives me a box. That’s not for me.

You sure you want to keep using this as a metaphor? At this point, you’ve stretched and pulled on it to the point of unusability.

There’s really, really great stuff in my box. Trust me.

God, I trust. You…?

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

So it cannot be for you. That’s a more accurate metaphor.

Sooo… someone gives me a box. That’s not for me.

I didn’t say it was given to you. That would imply that it was for you. With the right equipment, you and everyone else has access to this box (it represents the boundary of the observable universe). But you can’t open it so you don’t know what’s inside. So you cannot say that whatever is inside is for you. If indeed there IS anything inside. That would be nonsensical.

But you said that you are edified by it. It still sounds just as odd as when you first said it.

 

[Inquiry]

Important question: does this actually cause you doubt? Because we’ve gotten to a mangled analogy for a situation that may not even exist and it is seeming less an less helpful by the day.

 

[Freddy]

Important question: does this actually cause you doubt? Because we’ve gotten to a mangled analogy for a situation that may not even exist and it is seeming less an less helpful by the day.

Doubt what? The existence of a creator? I don’t believe there is one.

And the concept of a dissapearing universe seems to be a problem for some people. Case in point is your comment that it’s a situation that ‘may not exist’. It does exist. There’s no maybe about it. So the analogy of the box makes it a little easier to understand.

You know the box exists but you don’t know what’s inside it (if anything) and you can’t open it to check. So if there is something there it’s not for you.

How edifying. Apparently.

 

[Gorgias]

I didn’t say it was given to you.

If indeed there IS anything inside.

Both of these were part of the original thought experiment:

What if someone gave you a box filled with innumerable gifts

What’s really funny is that lelinator set up a thought experiment, expressly designed to thwart my assertions about what is “good” about parts of the universe that we can no longer observe… and twenty posts later, ya’ll are still quibbling and changing the thought experiment, because it so obviously fails to serve your objectives!

Now that edifies me!

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

I didn’t say it was given to you.

If indeed there IS anything inside.

Both of these were part of the original thought experiment:

They aren’t now. You can comment as you see fit. Or not. It’s up to you.

 

[Inquiry]

Considering I spent a while a few days ago showing that light could indeed reach a distant location even if the space between its source and the destination is increasing faster than light, I’m going to say that we are still at ‘may not exist.’

 

[Gorgias]

They aren’t now. You can comment as you see fit.

I did comment. I heckled the fact that the attempt is so laughable, that ya’ll can’t even come up with an analogy that fits it!

Let’s play along, though. Here’s the analogy that you’re now presenting:

There’s this box. (Or not. We can’t tell.)

It’s for me. (Or not. We’re not sure.)

And there’s amazing stuff in it! (Or not. We just don’t know.)

Are you edified by the box that you don’t have, that you don’t know contains anything, and you don’t even know whether you’d like the contents within?

(That’s your analogy? And you don’t expect it to get heckled?)

 

[lelinator]

I heckled the fact that the attempt is so laughable, that ya’ll can’t even come up with an analogy that fits it!

Sorry, but from my perspective you’re simply heckling yourself, and more tragically…your faith.

It’s always been my contention, that for whatever reason, people believe what they want to believe, and no amount of reasoning or evidence will change their position. Sadly, this exchange has simply served to demonstrate just how right that observation is…and for far too many people it means that self-delusion masquerades as faith. And if you get enough like-minded people together, it masquerades as religion.

 

[Gorgias]

for whatever reason, people believe what they want to believe

Can’t I make the same claim about your position, and your unwillingness to budge from it? Sauce for the gander, right…?

Here’s the thing: I think that, in defense of the position that you and Freddy hold (largely) in common, there are a couple issues that weaken the position, which you are not willing to concede. Namely:

We know the rate at which the universe is literally dissapearing. And we know how long that has been going on. For around 14 billion years. So the bit that we have been able to observe for the last few years - at the very edge of the observable universe, that which is dissapearing right now is (drum roll) the tiniest fraction that was ever available for us to see.

And that is just what we know is expanding past the boundary of our observable universe. Which is ‘leaving’ our universe. But there has ALWAYS been ‘something’ beyond that boundary from the moment of the big bang. Perhaps an infinity of ‘something’.

So, here’s the thing: from your argument, we can’t know anything. And yet, if you accept Freddy’s assertions (above), then that assertion that “we can’t know anything” is patently false! Here’s what we know:

• stuff is disappearing from our ability to observe it
• stuff has been disappearing from our ability to observe it

So, not only do we know that it’s there, but we’re observing the general condition! So, we do know that it was there, or is there, at least for a time. It’s not the “unknown box” that ya’ll are making it out to be! I mean, the fact that there are more grains of sand in the oceans than I’ll ever witness doesn’t make me any less in awe of the sublimity of the oceans!

So, I’m sorry: I don’t see it the way you do. And, I’m sorry that this makes you feel like I’m being intransigent. I’m not – I just don’t agree with your assertion. If you want to be nonplussed by the enormity of God’s creation… well, have at it! Me? I’m pretty impressed by it all.

 

[BT3241]

97% of the universe is un-accessible - even if you left at the speed of light you would not reach it - the fabric of space is expanding and will reach the speed of light and faster ( should be causality) making it un-accessible. The only area we can reach is the local group of galaxies if we can even do that . The visible universe will disappear and only the local group of galaxies will be visible which is also expected to merge into one big elliptical galaxy in the middle of blackness. But we will never know.
Must be Gods plan

 

[Inquiry]

If the space between point A and point B is growing faster than the speed of light, a photon can still travel between them. This is actually proven. There are some things that could change that calculation but recent papers cast doubt on those things being true.

 

[BT3241]

The visible universe is about 46 billion light years - we haven’t even seen a lot of the universe the light hasn’t reached us yet but with the expansion of the universe its expected to drop to 15 billion light years