Something that confuddles me about the nature of the priesthood

[thistle]

palmas85:

A very interesting thread. ** Not being a theologian, I cannot quote scripture and not being a church historian, I cannot really say with any certainty why the Church does not allow female priests, deacons, Bishops etc**. I could throw in a few ideas, but that would be all that they are. First, according to scripture the twelve were all men, sent forth to spread the word. Now I belive that, and I believe that they wrote the truth in the gospels for one compelling reason.

Ready?? The disappearance of the Lords body was discovered not by the the twelve, but by one or more of the women. It is a constant in the narratives. I accept that as the truth because it probably was a bit embarrasing for one of the twelve not to have discovered that significant fact. It probably would have been covered up had they been able to but since they could not, it was put in. That tells me more than anything else that the gospels accurately reflect what happened.

That being said, women at that time in history and in that area were underdogs? considered lesser beings perhaps, who knows? Christ did show favored treatment to women in his group. So why not use them as priests, probably because people would not have taken them seriously at the time. Nothing more and nothing less. And yes I do know that a least one and posibly two women were mentioned as being deacons in the early church.

I think that when you start breaking things down like gender equality and other things like that, you tend to lose sight of some very salient facts. One of them is simply that men and woman are different

And I mean different in many respects As an example, I am involved in Police work, and have been for well over twenty years. You will never have total gender equality in my field due to certain differences. For instance, women, by and large are much better at observation and interviewing people. Overall I would say that they make better detectives and investigators then men do. Men by and large are much better at routine arrests and arrest procedures. Those are not blanket statements and there are always exceptions, but they do reflect a significant reality.

Now can a woman do the job of a priest? Good question. I don’t know. But I have faith in the Holy Spirit and when we as a people are ready, if ever, and women are in His plans to be Priests, I’m sure that it will happen. If not, it will not.

IT REALLY ISN’T UP TO US

**CCC 1577 "Only a baptized man (vir) validly receives sacred ordination."66 The Lord Jesus chose men (viri) to form the college of the twelve apostles, and the apostles did the same when they chose collaborators to succeed them in their ministry.67 The college of bishops, with whom the priests are united in the priesthood, makes the college of the twelve an ever-present and ever-active reality until Christ’s return. The Church recognizes herself to be bound by this choice made by the Lord himself. For this reason the ordination of women is not possible.68 **

 

[daniellet]

Liberalsaved:

daniellet:

I beleive a household can be run by a single male, who would then in effect be the mother and the father.

I am talking about being a mother, not a housewife. Sure, a guy can be a housewife and run a household. So do you not see anything special or unique about motherhood? The fact that you think that being a mother is just about running a household underscores the fact that you do indeed hold a patriarchal worldview! It seems as if you think that being a priest, a leader is more important and powerful. That makes a priest superior. And it seems that you don’t see anything unique about motherhood. It is just about running a household, which anyone can do. So certainly motherhood is inferior. Motherhood is inferior and priesthood is superior so there is an inequity, and unfairness. What if the nurturing of young souls, in a uniquely feminine way, is in fact the most important role in God’s eyes? Isn’t he being unfair to the priests?

 

[Brendan]

ChemicalBean:

This indelible character of priesthood is supernatural phenomena. We can’t deduce the rules that govern the supernatural world (in which we participate by virtue of our ontological entity) by experiments; we just have to go by what God tells us. And God, through Jesus, tells us just two laws:

1.) You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, all your mind, and all your strength.
2.) You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

We certainly CAN deduce the rule on Ontological Life Fides et Ratio, Faith AND Reason.

For example, the Church know de fidethat Baptism, Confirmation and Holy Orders produce an indellible character on the soul.

The Church deduced that, with the Guidance of the Holy Spirit, using Reason.

Jesus never said that the supernatural Love of a man is of any different kind, character, or degree, than the supernatural Love of a woman. So, God could call, out of this supernatural love, any one of us, man or woman, to live out this supernatural love as a priest, because God can. And maybe God does - we don’t have absolute assurance that God doesn’t because a vocation is never discerned with 100% certainty. (Any humble priest or religious will tell you that!)

First of all, ALL Love is Supernatural. It comes from God (read Deus Caritas Est) There is litte doubt all live out Supernatural Love. But is it done in the same way?

And maybe God does - we don’t have absolute assurance that God doesn’t because a vocation is never discerned with 100% certainty. (Any humble priest or religious will tell you that!)

And if God does stir into the hearts of women the authentic call to serve as ministerial priests, and the Church willfully (even with good intentions) ignores this call, then yes - we are sinning.

You seem to be under the impression that a Call is a personal thing, a decision by the person.

A Call has two parts, and a Call only exists when both are present.

The first is an acceptance by the person of a direction in Life

The second is the acceptance by the Church of that decion.

It is a communal act, not a personal one. A person might ‘feel’ called, but there is NO authentic Call unless it is accepted by the Church.

Just because a person has a feeling about something, doesn’t make it real. Emotions do not impart reality.

So no, there is NO sin when the Church rejects a person for Holy Orders. This Authority is clear God gave the Bishops the right to choose. Paul tells Titus to ‘appoint priests in every town’. The decision clearly belong the Titus, the bishop, on who to appoint.

 

[Brendan]

Liberalsaved:

daniellet:

I beleive a household can be run by a single male, who would then in effect be the mother and the father

But would he actually BE a mother?

Livewise a woman can lead a prayer service, but would that make her ‘effectively’ a priest?

. Quite frankly, with the appalling track record of the clergy, I think that would not be something to aspire to.

Thank you. Fortunately, it’s that exact attitude that keeps ‘progressive’ men from going into the priesthood, and thus explaining all the wonderful orthodox men our Seminary is producing.

But hey, choices are choices. If a man wants to be a single father, or a woman wants to be a priest, I say let them.

You can say that all you want.

The Church of England allows women to be priests. Are they going to Hell? Of course, you guys’s answer is propbably yes…

As mentioned, the Church, and Catholics in general, make no statements on the final state of living person.

And to answer people who have preferred to attack my beleifs, I am both a spiritual and very liberal person. If you cannot reconcile the two, that’s your problem, not mine. Issues with my spirituality can be addressed to me in PM, and this thread saved for the topic at hand. Thank you.

It’s not up to me to reconcile those belifes, it up to you.

We will, however, be glad to help.

 

[Jasny]

Liberalsaved:

daniellet:

The Church of England allows women to be priests. Are they going to Hell? Of course, you guys’s answer is propbably yes…

We’ll leave hell and heaven up to God He doesn’t need any help in Judgement.

But demanding the priesthood is a dangerous road to go down,

The sacrament of Orders confers some of God’s own power to a mere mortal man. But the purpose of life is not to be powerful****, but to do God’s will.**** It is easy to want to be a priest for the wrong reason, even for men!

We read in the letter to the **Hebrews 5:1, "Every high priest is taken from among men and made their representatives before God to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins."** In both the Old Testament and the New Testament the priesthood is a special calling that originates from God. (Remember HE chose to become a Jew not a Greek or Roman for a reason. ) No one has a right to the priesthood, as the letter to the Hebrews makes clear,** „No one takes this honor upon himself but only when called by God, just as Aaron was.“  **

In the Old Testament, in the Book of Numbers chapter 16, we have the example of Korah

** ( Aaron’s cousin from the same tribe of Levi, but not a son of Aaron), who with another 250 men, protested against the special vocation of Aaron and his sons to the priesthood and wanted to take the priesthood upon themselves. What happened to them?They were burned to death by a fire that came down from heaven as they were holding their censers and offering incense**. (These are all men not women and they were playing
with fire )

                 **Form and matter problem**

Every sacrament has a form and matter if one is missing there is no sacrament,
Today there is a disordinate desire on the part of some women who want to be priests, not to know basic theology.

Suppose a bishop were to try to ordain a woman, what would happen? Nothing. Just like if at Mass, instead of using bread, the priest used a salami, and said the words of consecration over the salami, what would happen? Nothing.

Just as God decreed that bread would be the necessary element, for Him to make the Eucharist, so God decreed long ago that males would be the necessary elements to have priests.
*(Passover lamb, must be **male ** is mentioned specifically, could have said, just any lamb.)
*( First born males were spared by the lamb’s blood and therefore belonged to God  in special way and had to be bought back by the parents. Presentation)

So, if some women demand that they must be priests, even though God has made it clear and definitive through His representatives on earth that only men can be priests, then I suggest that they wear special asbestos vestments at their ordination ceremony. only kidding

Ultimatly you have to ask yourself am I infallable? if the answer is “No” then give the benifit of the doubt to 2000 years of saints both men and women on the issue.

 

[MrS]

Jennifer123:

%between%
So why aren’t there women priests? Because Jesus said so in His actions and teachings, plain as that.

Yes, He set the boundaries Himself. Those who wish to set their own boundaries are really wrong … out of bounds, so to speak.

To the innovative laity (or clergy for that matter), I can only say… “…don’t let the door hit you…”

 

[mercygate]

Liberalsaved:

The Church of England allows women to be priests. Are they going to Hell? Of course, you guys’s answer is propbably yes…

Point of distinction: Since the ordination of women, of itself, contradicts the Catholic teaching on priesthood, these women are not ordained to Priesthood at all. Even allowing that Anglican Orders might in some cases conceivably be valid (although always illicit), the mere fact of “ordaining” a woman would make that ordination invalid.

I speak as a woman who prepared for the priesthood and took the M.Div. in a seminary of the Episcopal Church.

 

[Potato1]

Liberalsaved:

daniellet:

I beleive a household can be run by a single male, who would then in effect be the mother and the father. Quite frankly, with the appalling track record of the clergy, I think that would not be something to aspire to. But hey, choices are choices. If a man wants to be a single father, or a woman wants to be a priest, I say let them.

The Church of England allows women to be priests. Are they going to Hell? Of course, you guys’s answer is propbably yes…

And to answer people who have preferred to attack my beleifs, I am both a spiritual and very liberal person. If you cannot reconcile the two, that’s your problem, not mine. Issues with my spirituality can be addressed to me in PM, and this thread saved for the topic at hand. Thank you.

Of course a liberal would bring up “Choice”

That is right, choices are choices. It is called free will. Adam and Eve had a "choice and we make choices to sin everyday. The Church and Her people have a choice to follow the format God gave us or not. I choose to stay home with my daughter, I didn’t carry her, I don’t lactate, I am not a mother. By your definition of Mother daycares are the most common mother.
You seem to be confused about gender. That is understandable in todays societey that has put women through worse things than most husbands in the fifteys. We seem to equate the priesthood with some sort of Power that women should be equal to. Be proud to be a woman!! I am so envious sometimes.
(for any guy reading this I am currently cooking a steak and I will wrestle something in a few minutes.)

Women can be priests, In other Churches. The people who follow the Church of england are in error. I don’t get to be the judge of who goes to heaven or hell. (thank goodness for you guys)
But I personally believe that God is mercyful and the gift of salvation is bestowed on many of his children (but perhaps not as many as some like to think)

You ignore facts, arguments and just go with what you think is right. And that is ok except then you complain about people attacing your beliefs. Excuse me… you posted a topic on a Catholic website, challenging Catholic teaching and you are surprised that the error that is your idea has been disagreed with?

Lots of people are spirutall, it is a very popular word nowdays. Madona is spiritual, witches are spiritual, Buddists are spiritual, Bin Ladin is spiritual, The pope is spiritual, I am spiritual. I notice you didn’t say that you are a very Catholic person, just spritual, why? One might argue that everyone is spiritual. You point out that you are liberal and spritual and that WE have trouble reconcillling that. but YOU are the one who has posted something that you DON’T reconcille to the Catholic Church so it looks as if it is YOUR problem after all. But what do I know I am a sexist, old fashioned, can’t change with the times Catholic, and You could run a better church.

 

[JimG]

Well, it’s been an interesting thread. But the fact is that the discussion is pretty much superfluous. There never have been and never will be women priests. The likelihood of that happening is about the same as the Church adding The DaVinci Code to the canon of the bible.

 

[mikew262]

Jennifer123:

It’s not a patriarchical conspiracy, “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus” (Gal. 3:28).

Your scripture quote in a way supports Liberal’s point. All are one in Christ Jesus, whether they be male or female. Kind of indirectly supports women priests.

 

[mikew262]

urbana:

Supposition. (And insulting! This argues that by virtue of being men, they cannot be trusted.)

I suspect there are alot of women who believe just that.

 

[mikew262]

Brendan:

Since He didn’t have one to send, the point is kind of moot.

I believe if God wanted to send a daughter, he would’ve sent one.

 

[mikew262]

mercygate:

Point of distinction: Since the ordination of women, of itself, contradicts the Catholic teaching on priesthood, these women are not ordained to Priesthood at all. Even allowing that Anglican Orders might in some cases conceivably be valid (although always illicit), the mere fact of “ordaining” a woman would make that ordination invalid.

I speak as a woman who prepared for the priesthood and took the M.Div. in a seminary of the Episcopal Church.

I suspect an ordained female Episcopalian priest would probably disagree with you.

 

[rwoehmke]

daniellet:

Are you male, Liberal?

Liberalsaved:

Even those who were women were influenced by the fictional idea of male superiority\QUOTE] So, if I am a woman, and don’t believe I should serve in the same roles as men, then I am just a dumb woman influenced by the fictional idea of male superiority? It seem you are the one not giving us ladies much credit. Perhap’s you don’t understand the Church’s ancient view on women. Why aren’t you here asking why men aren’t allowed to be mothers? I think the argument could be made that motherhood is perhaps the noblest calling as far as roles are concerned. A minor figure in Catholocism, Mary, comes to mind. Your viewpoint exhibits a great deal of sexism in that you believe the male roles are the superior roles, to which women should aspire. Just a mother,Danielle

Out of couriosity why is this non-issue of men can’t be mothers being dragged out? To be a biological mother or a biological father is a whole lot different than being a Priest(Father, Padre, Pierre or whatever) Seem like an apples and oranges situation. For my part, if the Pope says just can’t do it, he ain’t gonna do it and he ain’t gonna change his mind so we might as well suck it up and get on with our lives.

 

[Potato1]

mikew262:

I suspect an ordained female Episcopalian priest would probably disagree with you.

Good thing this isn’t a forum on Episcopalians.com

Every prieshood thinks itself valid. We are talking about the priesthood that Christ ordained in His Church… before the reformation.

 

[Brendan]

mikew262:

I believe if God wanted to send a daughter, he would’ve sent one.

But God is a Father, a Son, and a Holy Spirit.

So there is not daughter to send. I suppose He could have begotten a Daughter too and made it a Quadity.

But He didn’t

 

[mercygate]

mikew262:

I suspect an ordained female Episcopalian priest would probably disagree with you.

Of course she would disagree.

That very disagreement would indicate her distance from the Priesthood of the one, holy Catholic, and Apostolic Church founded by Jesus Christ.

But should she miraculously become clear-headed on the subject, she might join people like Linda Poindexter who have abandoned Anglican ordination to become “doorkeepers in the house of the Lord.”

 

[Brendan]

mikew262:

I suspect an ordained female Episcopalian priest would probably disagree with you.

Well, considering the Episcopalians don’t have valid Sacramental Orders, one could say the woman is question is ordained to something, but it certainly isn’t the Ministerial Priesthood.

 

[mikew262]

Brendan:

Well, considering the Episcopalians don’t have valid Sacramental Orders, one could say the woman is question is ordained to something, but it certainly isn’t the Ministerial Priesthood.

I’m sure in her mind she is just as ordained as our male priests. Of course, the Catholic faith says she is wrong, but since she isn’t Catholic, what the Catholic faith thinks is irrelevant to her.

God will ultimately judge whether she is right or wrong. While I’m torn on whether women clergy are a good idea, personally, I don’t think God is hung up on this. I think he welcomes anybody who is willing to take up the calling of preaching his Word.

 

[mercygate]

mikew262:

I’m sure in her mind she is just as ordained as our male priests. Of course, the Catholic faith says she is wrong, but since she isn’t Catholic, what the Catholic faith thinks is irrelevant to her.

It certainly was not irrelevant to me. Episcopalians claim that their ordinations are not to the Episcopal Church – they claim ordination to the priesthood of THE Church. Every day in Seminary, I looked up at the gilded inscription chiseled in stone around the chapel frieze and read: + TU ES SACERDOS IN AETERNUM SECUNDUM ORDINEM MELCHISEDEK + ACCIPITE SPIRITUM SANCTUM + QUORUM REMISERITIS PECCATA REMISSA SUNT EIS + QUORUM RETINUERITIS RETENTA SUNT +

Thou art a priest forever after the order of Melichizedek + receive the holy spirit + whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven + whose sins you retain, they are retained.

It finally sunk in that the Episcopal Church was disconnected from the source of all that at its very root . . .