Something that confuddles me about the nature of the priesthood

[Brendan]

mikew262:

I’m sure in her mind she is just as ordained as our male priests.

Just because it’s in her mind makes it factually true?

Does every other thing in her mind become factually true as well, or just an ordination?

 

[tdandh26]

tdandh26:

The Catholic Church is the perfected form of the old Jewish religion.

When God instituted the priesthood with Aaron and his sons, do you think God was being biased? Jesus perfected the priesthood, while keeping the sacrefices (which are now unbloody). Jesus replaced sin sacrefices with confession. All the duties of the priests today were in some way represented by the male priests of the old Jewish religion.

God does not change and Jesus did not come to abolish but to fulfill. There are many other reasons why a woman cannot be a priest but some of those have been covered.

To follow your direction of reasoning though, I guess we males (who are not priests) should be upset since we cannot become brides of Christ by becoming nuns. :crying:

 

[Evan]

At the time of Christ, may religions had women priests. It would not have been a scandel to appoint some to the Church.

Christ never avoided contriversy, yet this action would not have been contriversial.

The authors of Holy Scripture were certainly men, but they knew that there were many women priests in other religion so would not have found it totally objectionable to see the Son of God decide to appoint women to the priesthood.

A nice discussion show the two points of view can be found in the article in first things. firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0304/articles/ferrarawilson.html

They both went to a Lutheran seminary, and both were ordained Lutheran ministers. Now one is Catholic and the other has remained Lutheran. So they come from similar backgrounds when they approach the question of ordination of women into the True Church founded by Christ.

 

[BlackKnight]

See any girls in the list of apostles?
See any in the accounts of the evangelists in Acts?
See any traditional and historical documenst that tell us there were any?

If your answer is no then you are not alone since the Pope and the Magisterium couldn’t either.
Nuff said.

 

[Liberalsaved]

Um…did I hear Brendan right? Being pissed off when the clergy does something blatantly wrong or illegal is good because it keeps liberal priests out?

 

[Liberalsaved]

JimG:

Well, it’s been an interesting thread. But the fact is that the discussion is pretty much superfluous. There never have been and never will be women priests. The likelihood of that happening is about the same as the Church adding The DaVinci Code to the canon of the bible.

Are you trying to say things have never changed since the church formed? You may want to not extend your assurances beyond what you can know.

 

[Liberalsaved]

mercygate:

Point of distinction: Since the ordination of women, of itself, contradicts the Catholic teaching on priesthood, these women are not ordained to Priesthood at all. Even allowing that Anglican Orders might in some cases conceivably be valid (although always illicit), the mere fact of “ordaining” a woman would make that ordination invalid.

I speak as a woman who prepared for the priesthood and took the M.Div. in a seminary of the Episcopal Church.

You know, ours is not the only way of seeing God. Like it or not, this is true, nor are catholics the only ones who beleive as passionately.

 

[Liberalsaved]

daniellet:

Liberalsaved:

I am talking about being a mother, not a housewife. Sure, a guy can be a housewife and run a household. So do you not see anything special or unique about motherhood? The fact that you think that being a mother is just about running a household underscores the fact that you do indeed hold a patriarchal worldview! It seems as if you think that being a priest, a leader is more important and powerful. That makes a priest superior. And it seems that you don’t see anything unique about motherhood. It is just about running a household, which anyone can do. So certainly motherhood is inferior. Motherhood is inferior and priesthood is superior so there is an inequity, and unfairness. What if the nurturing of young souls, in a uniquely feminine way, is in fact the most important role in God’s eyes? Isn’t he being unfair to the priests?

You’re putting words in my mouth again using the old reliable “so you think” trick.

 

[Liberalsaved]

palmas85:

A very interesting thread. Not being a theologian, I cannot quote scripture and not being a church historian, I cannot really say with any certainty why the Church does not allow female priests, deacons, Bishops etc. I could throw in a few ideas, but that would be all that they are. First, according to scripture the twelve were all men, sent forth to spread the word. Now I belive that, and I believe that they wrote the truth in the gospels for one compelling reason.

Ready?? The disappearance of the Lords body was discovered not by the the twelve, but by one or more of the women. It is a constant in the narratives. I accept that as the truth because it probably was a bit embarrasing for one of the twelve not to have discovered that significant fact. It probably would have been covered up had they been able to but since they could not, it was put in. That tells me more than anything else that the gospels accurately reflect what happened.

That being said, women at that time in history and in that area were underdogs? considered lesser beings perhaps, who knows? Christ did show favored treatment to women in his group. So why not use them as priests, probably because people would not have taken them seriously at the time. Nothing more and nothing less. And yes I do know that a least one and posibly two women were mentioned as being deacons in the early church.

I think that when you start breaking things down like gender equality and other things like that, you tend to lose sight of some very salient facts. One of them is simply that men and woman are different

And I mean different in many respects As an example, I am involved in Police work, and have been for well over twenty years. You will never have total gender equality in my field due to certain differences. For instance, women, by and large are much better at observation and interviewing people. Overall I would say that they make better detectives and investigators then men do. Men by and large are much better at routine arrests and arrest procedures. Those are not blanket statements and there are always exceptions, but they do reflect a significant reality.

Now can a woman do the job of a priest? Good question. I don’t know. But I have faith in the Holy Spirit and when we as a people are ready, if ever, and women are in His plans to be Priests, I’m sure that it will happen. If not, it will not.

IT REALLY ISN’T UP TO US

You are quite the scholar even if you have never touched a theology book in your life.

 

[twiztedseraph]

Liberalsaved:

And it can be summed up like this.

It is well-known that Jesus included several women in his closest followers. It is also known that those who wrote these stories down were highly biased, being almost exclusively male. Even those who were women were influenced by the fictional idea of male superiority. As a result, it’s likely the women in his group were full further apostles with the same importance, no more or no less (so this isn’t a Da Vinci Code thing) as the men.

So, given Jesus’s own acceptance of women into his closest inner circle, exactly what is the problem of other biblical people and especially the modern Church, which ought to know better, with women being in the clergy. It seems there is no better authority as to how a Christian should behave than Jesus. And yet the Church position doggedly contradicts his acceptance of women as equals to men. They could have even been greater, as the Bible tells of how the women waited faithfully for him to rise while the men almost exclusively gave up hope until they actually saw him again.

It makes no sense. It is completely irreconcilable with the Church’s ancient view on women.

What’s with this topic? Honestly, can someone please put a bullet in its head and put it out of it’s misery already.
Look its not that the Church is being mean, the Church in modern times is very image conscious, but she cannot change divine truth in order to appease the world’s sense of “equality”

Its an impossibilty to ordain women. There I said it

Even if ALL the Apostles and Bishop Saints throughout the ages, went to a woman and placed hands on her head, said the words of consecration, nothing would happen (except the Sin of Sacrilage, but they, being saints wouldn’t do it anyway).
Its an impossibility, nothing can make it happen!

Want proof? As Catholics we are bound to submit to Infallible teachings of the Pope and the Councils as well as those contained in Scripture and Tradition. Well take a looksy at this:

Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church’s divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful

That sirs, is an infallible statement. Trust me, I even asked a Doctor of Theology from the Gregorian University. The way it is set out leaves no room for any other conclusion, but complete submission.

It may not make sense now, but it will one day, lets just trust.

In his Ordinatio Sacerdotalis John Paul II

 

[Potato1]

Liberalsaved:

daniellet:

You’re putting words in my mouth again using the old reliable “so you think” trick.

Are you trying to say things have never changed since the church formed? You may want to not extend your assurances beyond what you can know

Are you trying to say things have never changed since the church formed? You may want to not extend your assurances beyond what you can know.

I expect so. Let’s just hope I don’t get any "So you’re saying"s…

It is quite interesting that you call people on using a poor debating tactic that you yourself use. Oh the hypocrisy oh the hypocrisy. Do you have any facts or just innuendo and inflamitory statements?

 

[Beaver]

Brendan:

But God is a Father, a Son, and a Holy Spirit.

So there is not daughter to send. I suppose He could have begotten a Daughter too and made it a Quadity.

But He didn’t

Christ is the giver of the gift as is God the Father, therefore He could not be the reciever of the gift.

 

[Jennifer123]

mikew262:

Your scripture quote in a way supports Liberal’s point. All are one in Christ Jesus, whether they be male or female. Kind of indirectly supports women priests.

Hi-

I think that if you would have read my post after the quote, and put into context within the conversation at hand, you’d see the point I was trying to make. Sorry if you missed that, sometimes I’m not as eloquent as I’d like to be so I’ll quickly make my point again.
The point of the scripture is that men and women are equal under Christ, so no, there is no conspiracy by Jesus to keep women in “bondage” or subservient.
The point after the scripture is then why aren’t women priests? I think, at least I’m pretty sure, I and others made salient cases as to why there can’t be women priests. I hope you can get my point from reading my posts.
Thanks

 

[Jennifer123]

Liberalsaved:

You know, ours is not the only way of seeing God. Like it or not, this is true, nor are catholics the only ones who beleive as passionately.

John 18:37: Pilate said to him, “So you are a king?” Jesus answered, “You say that I am a king. For this I was born, and for this I have come into the world, to bear witness to the truth. Every one who is of the truth hears my voice.”
38: Pilate said to him, “What is truth?” After he had said this, he went out to the Jews again, and told them, "I find no crime in him.

Pilate’s words echo today - What is truth?

A truth can not be true and untrue. Either Jesus instituted a priesthood for men and women, or for men only. It cannot be both ways, it cannot be true and untrue.

Here’s to hoping you find the truth, not “your truth”, but the real, unchanging truth.

 

[JimG]

Liberalsaved:

Are you trying to say things have never changed since the church formed? You may want to not extend your assurances beyond what you can know.

Some things have changed. Some haven’t. This thing hasn’t changed, and never will. I’m waiting for the oddsmakers in Vegas to open a line on it. What would the odds be? Could be money to be made here.

 

[mominne]

Liberalsaved:

daniellet:

You’re putting words in my mouth again using the old reliable “so you think” trick.

Well, then can you please answer my contention that your view of priest=superior actually stems from a patriarchal view of the world?

Danielle

 

[Beaver]

Liberalsaved:

daniellet:

I beleive a household can be run by a single male, who would then in effect be the mother and the father. Quite frankly, with the appalling track record of the clergy, I think that would not be something to aspire to. But hey, choices are choices. If a man wants to be a single father, or a woman wants to be a priest, I say let them.

The Church of England allows women to be priests. Are they going to Hell? Of course, you guys’s answer is propbably yes…

And to answer people who have preferred to attack my beleifs, I am both a spiritual and very liberal person. If you cannot reconcile the two, that’s your problem, not mine. Issues with my spirituality can be addressed to me in PM, and this thread saved for the topic at hand. Thank you.

*Christ is the giver of the gift as is God the Father, therefore He could not be the reciever of the gift. *

 

[the-3rd-parent]

It is well-known that Jesus included several women in his closest followers.

It was also known that the women held distinct roles from the men.

It is also known that those who wrote these stories down were highly biased, being almost exclusively male.

So in other words, you are arguing against the Divine authority of the Scriptures. You are arguing that they are not the Word of God, that they are not Divine Revelation but merely historical documents to be looked at for philosphical reflection such as the writings of Aristotle.

Any Catholic who believes that isn’t in a position to teach the Catholic faith. That Catholic needs to learn the faith.

Even those who were women were influenced by the fictional idea of male superiority. As a result, it’s likely the women

There is absolutely no historical or biblical evidence of the sort that the women were Apostles. There are specifically 12 Apostles as they replace the 12 tribes of Judah from the Old Testement. And each one of the Apostles is specifically named in order.

Moreover, had this been an anti-woman work, there would have been more men at the cruxifiction. If the four gospel writers were willing to fabricate the names of men under the listing of Apostles, they would have been willing to fabricate much more to the story that would likely have excluded women from the picture a lot more strongly.

It makes no sense. It is completely irreconcilable with the Church’s ancient view on women.

The priesthood is a fatherhood. The priest is a father to his parish and the parishioners are his spiritual children. He assists them in their spiritual development as a biological father assists development and fulfilling of the needs of his children. I doubt any woman would be satisfied attempting to substitute fatherhood for motherhood, while they are types of parenthood, they hold distinctions from each other that deal more with the capacities and strengths God has instilled in us.

If a woman became a priest, her instinct would be to act as a mother to the parish. Each woman would be different of course in how she mothers. It may not at all be apparent that it is much different from how the male priest does it as the dinstinctions between biological mother and father are not always as clear either, but still she would lack the ability to be a priest just as she would lack the ability to be a biological father, when in fact she was the mother.

The primary role of the priest is to be a minister of the sacraments. The concecration of the Eucharist and the administration of the sacrament of penance are the two penacle services they offer us laity, and in both cases they become images of Christ and having a female say the prayers of concration would be like depicting Christ as female in a peice of artwork. He also speaks on behalf of Christ when he says the prayers of absolution in the confessional.

The role is not that of a Protestant Preacher nor of a Protestant minister. He doesn’t stand before the podium for an hour spouting out his interpritation of one line of scripture. He is given time for a homily which tends to be a five minute talk and explanation of the gospel for that week (a gospel which he does not choose but which is guided by the Church’s calender. Every parish reads the exact same readings on the exact same day).

And if you want to talk ministers, women in Catholicism are not prevented from becoming ministers. I happen to be a Youth Minister at my parish and the entire youth program is run by my friend, Mary. They also aren’t prevented from becoming theologians as I was taught Catholic theology by a female doctor of theology. Even St. Therese of Leusix is considered a doctor of the Church and she’s had more influence over the Church and its teaching than any average priest priest offers simply through his “profession.”

I recommend the book: “Free, Feminine and Faithful.” catholicfreeshipping.com/Products/cfs_gensym-227.html

I also recommend Pope JP II’s “The Genius of Women.”

 

[Liberalsaved]

mominne:

Liberalsaved:

Well, then can you please answer my contention that your view of priest=superior actually stems from a patriarchal view of the world?

Danielle

I never said that. You did. I said women should be allowed to be priests and you somehow twisted that into “Males are superior”.

 

[daniellet]

Liberalsaved:

mominne:

I never said that. You did. I said women should be allowed to be priests and you somehow twisted that into “Males are superior”.

No, I said that viewing a leadership role as “superior”, is a patriarchal point of view. Do you believe that the priesthood is a “superior” role or not? Isn’t that why you think women should be priests? I would agree with you if I thought that priesthood=superiority, but I don’t. (And I don’t agree with you because I accept the wisdom of Christ and the Church. Dumb woman.)