Something to Ponder at Christmas

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So I’m not sure what I should be pondering?

Nor do I see any relevance this story has to Christmas… Christmas celebrates the birth of Christ and is meant as a day to meditate and take part in the joys that God has bestowed upon us all. If we look at the life of Jesus, we observe the dedication that Jesus had for His Father: everything that Jesus did was to fulfill the will of the Father. He loved his neighbors, healed the sick, preached the Word, debated heretics, went through great temptation, and suffered immensely so that our sins would be forgiven; all of which corresponds to the Will of God the Father.

Now looking at the story from Mercedes, a common one, yes, I do not feel that we should be throwing a pity party for this poor soul. From the sounds of it, she herself seems like she has turned her back on God. Let me emphasize “seems” because I nor anyone else know what her relationship is like. However, God throws EVERYONE some sort of hardship in this life that we must deal with. Sometimes it is more difficult than others, sometimes not, but either way we can make “good” decisions or “bad” decisions. Mercedes seems to be making poor decisions in that she has abandoned her family, she went through with her gender change, and is currently living and “probably” having relations with her partner. Each one these seems to contradict any Christian idealism. Also, I’m not saying that it is entirely her fault because the way one grows is not entirely their choice… her parents may have had ill effects on her life, especially growing up as a boy. When the father figure fails to be a true father, problems arise. But either way, gender issues are in the same category as homosexuals in that they don’t follow modern day “norms” but doesn’t mean that they should indulge in their emotions. Just like the human desire to kill or have adulterous sex or argue or hate or anything sinful, gender issue is something that CAN be controlled with the help of Christ, not through denial, but acceptance. Catholics are VERY accepting of the gay community, and a large portion of priests are openly gay. Doesn’t mean it is still morally lawful to have sex with the same partner, but rather a way to live a chaste life free from sex and worldly obligation.

Now looking at the story about the “Soup Kitchen” I’m just as boggled as to what i ought to be pondering… One of the biggest disagreements with this article is the idea that “privilege is something you don’t know you have until you lose it.” I would partially agree in that the easiest way to realize our privileges is losing them; however, if we look at our day, we realize all the “privileges” that most of us have. The ability to take a shower each morning is a privilege, same with sleeping in my full size bed, the ability to have internet and type this, the ability to respond to this post, the food on my table, my cellphone, my nice clothes, my ability to choose my clothes, the ability to sit with people at a soup kitchen, and the list is ever so infinite in the finite world. But looking closely, i named both physical and emotional privileges. We have the privilege to choose our friends, not our family. We have a privilege to choose who we marry, not our children. And most importantly we have the privilege to life. God has given us life and God can take it away. You want to know the biggest privilege is? Eternal salvation. We have absolutely every opportunity to spend eternity in Heaven, but so few of us realize it is a privilege, not something given to us.

I can tell that Mercedes is/was Christian, so she is well aware of this choice. She should also be well aware of her paths and that her choices are far from wise. Also, her mother sounds like she wants what’s best for her “son” but at the same time, she too is mislead because televangelists don’t provide a single bit of salvation nor does endless and mindless giving. (Not saying giving is bad, but sending money without knowing the facts is not the most rational imo) Anyways, if I’m missing a key point to these articles, I’d appreciate it if it was more blunt, otherwise I see no point. I don’t support the gay movement, nor the trans-gender movement or anything other than the will of God. We are to serve Him in all conditions, and these movements destroy any sense of religious and spiritual presence.

I pray that Mercedes and all those others who have strayed from the path of God, and that everyone has had a wonderful and sincere celebration of Christ our Lord. God bless and may the privilege of salvation be known to all!
 
I pray that Mercedes and all those others who have strayed from the path of God
Are you so sure that she has?
How many lives have you saved recently?
At Christmas time, did you serve at a soup kitchen, or minister to the sick?

By their fruits shall ye know them.

I didn’t, by the way. I have a family - and this year, I wasn’t on watch on the emergency line, to help those whose rejection causes them suicidal ideation. My first break in three years.

I don’t claim to be anyone special, nor is my record especially admirable. But I don’t believe that this path I’m on is away from God. I rather think He approves of such as Monica and Mercedes.

Thank you very much for taking the time to read those articles. That’s the important thing to me, not the conclusions that you reached, so much as that you actually thought about the issues.

Merry Christmas. Gaude te, Gaude te, Christus est Natus, ex Maria Virgine, Gaude Te!
 
Are you so sure that she has?
How many lives have you saved recently?
At Christmas time, did you serve at a soup kitchen, or minister to the sick?
Hmmm, I kind of find that to be a fairly personal question because no matter what I do on this Earth, there is still going to be more that I can do, so do I go around counting my good deeds? Of course not. Only through pride do we flaunt our works. Have I had my share of assisting the less fortunate, yes, I have. Can I do more, of course. If you honestly want me to start listing off these things to prove something, I will, but otherwise i see no relevance in doing so.
I have a family - and this year, I wasn’t on watch on the emergency line, to help those whose rejection causes them suicidal ideation. My first break in three years.
So I’m absolutely curious, why would there be a suicide hot-line for gender change rejection?? (If that’s the emergency hotline you are talking about…) If gender change is such a great thing, why are people having issues with it?? I’m going to throw my neck out there and say that maybe these transgenders are not fulfilling the will of God, so it would only make sense that these folk are falling into a depression… I’ve never heard of a truly devout Christian consider suicide… maybe a Christian heretic, but not a sincere one. But of course, I’m not God, so to that extent, what do I know…
But I don’t believe that this path I’m on is away from God. I rather think He approves of such as Monica and Mercedes.
I find it quite interesting the idea of sin: Venial and Mortal. So many sincerely find their paths to be Holy, but why is it that everyone’s path is so incredibly different?? To tell you the truth, I believe that Mercedes and Monica and all those out their sincerely believe what they are doing is right and almighty, and maybe even for God’s will, but sorry to say this, but the Bible doesn’t support their actions…

Anyways, I wish you and your family a very merry Christmas. And I pray that through your works, you can bring your victims closer to the one and only Jesus Christ our savior and King!
 
So I’m absolutely curious, why would there be a suicide hot-line for gender change rejection?? (If that’s the emergency hotline you are talking about…)
Sort of. I’ll explain below.
If gender change is such a great thing, why are people having issues with it??
I don’t know. Most people just find the subject distasteful, icky, embarrassing, so don’t want to be reminded of it. If need be, by eliminating the problem. Trans people can feel the same way too, of course, and they have medical and legal problems too. But the majority of people who have real issues with it aren’t trans.

It is concerned with gender change rejection - but the rejection by others, not they themselves.

When a 15 year old trans boy has his 4 month old labrador puppy poisoned and dying in his lap at 3am - because the neighbours don’t approve of what he’s doing - then he’ll need someone to talk to. (Call in August 2005 - that one still haunts me)
When a trans woman gets reminded that she’ll never see her children again, as the Judge forbade all further contact - then they need someone to talk to. (Last one like that was 2 months ago.)
Rape survivors of course - raping a trans woman isn’t really rape, is it? I mean, they ask for it with their immoral lifestyle. (That one was last week)

I don’t know why people have such issues with it that trans people have 17 times the rate of being murdered in the USA as do most people. But they do.
I’m going to throw my neck out there and say that maybe these transgenders are not fulfilling the will of God, so it would only make sense that these folk are falling into a depression… I’ve never heard of a truly devout Christian consider suicide… maybe a Christian heretic, but not a sincere one. But of course, I’m not God, so to that extent, what do I know…
I know plenty of trans people who have been commanded by their priests, pastors and especially parents to commit suicide. You’ll find the first-hand accounts of some of these people on other threads in the forum, and published articles by trans people in magazines and newspapers. For those who are devout Christians, to be told by their spiritual advisor that the best thing they can do for everyone else is to kill themselves, immediately… is pretty devastating. Some don’t take that advice, and seek second opinions. Others do.
To tell you the truth, I believe that Mercedes and Monica and all those out their sincerely believe what they are doing is right and almighty, and maybe even for God’s will, but sorry to say this, but the Bible doesn’t support their actions…
Chapter and verse please, because that’s not the view of most of those familiar with the subject.

Start with Matthew 19:12 - the first line, which deals with intersexed people.The last line has been used as an argument, but it’s clear from the context that this really means celibacy, not castration.

Then look at the evidence that trans people are all anatomically - not “spiritually” or “psychologically” but physically and biologically intersexed. Some parts of their body are masculinised, others feminised. We can’t prove they all are - just all that have ever been examined, hundreds of them.

Then look at Isaiah 56:3-5.

Now what scriptural evidence do you adduce? Or is it something that “everybody knows” without any actual evidence?
Anyways, I wish you and your family a very merry Christmas. And I pray that through your works, you can bring your victims closer to the one and only Jesus Christ our savior and King!
Many thanks. Good wishes are always appreciated. Actually, I try to delay the meeting, rather than hasten it. I suspect that’s not what you meant though. You are a person of goodwill.

I’m not trans, I’m Intersexed by the way. One of the rare varieties that causes a natural sex-change, to over-simplify. The existence of people like me tends to give many theologians conniptions, they’d really rather we not exist.

See cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/12/17/gaza.gender.id/ for an example. That one’s 17BHDD, (17beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase-3 deficiency).
 
I know plenty of trans people who have been commanded by their priests, pastors and especially parents to commit suicide.
Sadly, there is a great deal of corruption in this world. I would never support a priest, pastor, parent, or anyone who would command or allow another person to commit suicide. It is a hypocrisy that a priest/pastor would do such a thing, and they are not doing the will of God.

Additionally, you talked about suicide… I still firmly believe that the STRONGEST suicide hotline is through a relationship with God. If their relationship with Him is not strong enough, then sure, the suicide hotline is the next best thing because God works through ALL His children.
Rape survivors of course - raping a trans woman isn’t really rape, is it? I mean, they ask for it with their immoral lifestyle.
Of course it is rape! All these hate crimes against transgenders (and homosexuals) are preposterous and immoral in itself. It is not our will to do justice on these people, but rather God’s duty, whatever that may be…
Start with Matthew 19:12 - the first line, which deals with intersexed people.The last line has been used as an argument, but it’s clear from the context that this really means celibacy, not castration.

Then look at the evidence that trans people are all anatomically - not “spiritually” or “psychologically” but physically and biologically intersexed. Some parts of their body are masculinised, others feminised. We can’t prove they all are - just all that have ever been examined, hundreds of them.

Then look at Isaiah 56:3-5.
I think you got me wrong on my last post… I never said that these people were evil, because I agreed and still do agree that they are born this way and cannot control it. I’m very glad and now enlightened by those two passages you gave, and I agree with it wholeheartedly. Also, after reading many versions of that passage, I got the gist that eunuchs (or anyone with a physical sex birth “defect”) should stay celibate for the Kingdom of Heaven. Thus, I believe that these eunuchs should NOT castrate or mutilate their bodies to become more worldly, but rather stay in their natural state as God has always intended. As you mentioned, it is “physical and biological” not “spiritual” or “psychological” so why need to change one’s body when their thoughts and emotions are kept in high psychological spirits?? Of course it is different than society’s norms, and will be difficult on the “victim” but that is the whole point! As Isaiah points out, eunuchs will have a special place in a Kingdom of Heaven… they will certainly go through more suffering here on Earth (whether it be social rejection or not) but they will be greatly rewarded in Heaven. That’s why it’s important that they don’t change themselves to try and fit in, but rather accept who they are. All the Martyrs, early Christians, and even Jesus were condemned, persecuted, and often killed for doing the will of God, despite the disagreements with the worldly people. Should society be more accepting of these natural eunuchs? Yes. Should eunuchs be more informed and accepting of themselves? Yes. Sadly, in this world filled with good and evil, we will never see an end to persecution. And it is up to the good to try and create True justice amongst the nations. (not killing!)
Many thanks. Good wishes are always appreciated. Actually, I try to delay the meeting, rather than hasten it. I suspect that’s not what you meant though. You are a person of goodwill.
Heh, nah, what I meant to say was that i pray you can lead your victims closer to Jesus Christ… here on Earth and in the spiritual sense! 😃

God bless and thanks for further enlightening me on this issue… 🙂
 
  1. When a 15 year old trans boy has his 4 month old labrador puppy poisoned and dying in his lap at 3am - because the neighbours don’t approve of what he’s doing - then he’ll need someone to talk to. (Call in August 2005 - that one still haunts me)
  2. When a trans woman gets reminded that she’ll never see her children again, as the Judge forbade all further contact - then they need someone to talk to. (Last one like that was 2 months ago.)
  3. Rape survivors of course - raping a trans woman isn’t really rape, is it? I mean, they ask for it with their immoral lifestyle. (That one was last week)
  4. I don’t know why people have such issues with it that trans people have 17 times the rate of being murdered in the USA as do most people. But they do.
  5. I know plenty of trans people who have been commanded by their priests, pastors and especially parents to commit suicide. You’ll find the first-hand accounts of some of these people on other threads in the forum, and published articles by trans people in magazines and newspapers. For those who are devout Christians, to be told by their spiritual advisor that the best thing they can do for everyone else is to kill themselves, immediately… is pretty devastating. Some don’t take that advice, and seek second opinions. Others do.
  1. I’ll take your word for it that killing the puppy was due to the gender issue, not, say leaving the puppy outside yapping below a neighbor’s baby’s bedroom window all night… (been there, was TEMPTED to toss a D-con meatball myself…). Such behavior is horrible and unChristlike. See summary at bottom for the cause here.
  2. I suspect there is more to the story here. Surely if she was able to conceive and bear children, she does not have the same physical sexual dysfunctionalism that you typically point to in posts.
  3. Rape is never justified regardless of who the victim is. Each and every human being is created by God and can never be demeaned by another this way. This is basic christian teaching (which is not to say that all thsoe who call themselves ‘christians’ live by it as they should).
  4. Again, murder is always wrong regardless of who the victim is.
  5. I almost cannot believe such a thing could be true. But priests are, indeed human (see below). If you ever DO hear of such a thing, please try to determine who said priest was by name and report him to the Diocesan Bishop. Suicide is grave matter and potentially a mortal sin in Catholicism.
Summary and Theme
Each of these examples of yours show people behaving badly Humans are that way. We all need a Savior. Even when we manage to hold onto the goodness God created into us and restrain our base inclinations, we sometimes twist even that into sinfulness by ridiculously harsh reactions against what we perceive to be the sins of others. Jesus pointed out the absurdity of this in the parable of the indebted servant. The master had mercy and commuted sentence for the indebted servant. The forgiven servant was released and immediately went out and tormented those who owed HIM far lesser sums! But the fact that people have sinfully unjust reactions against sinful behavior does not mean that we should abandon moral standard. Some things are evil. But you don’t overcome evil with evil. That applies to your side as much as to ours on this issue. Evil can only be overcome by virtue aided by Grace. And Grace comes only from one place…
 
  1. I’ll take your word for it that killing the puppy was due to the gender issue, not, say leaving the puppy outside yapping below a neighbor’s baby’s bedroom window all night… (been there, was TEMPTED to toss a D-con meatball myself…). Such behavior is horrible and unChristlike. See summary at bottom for the cause here.
  2. I suspect there is more to the story here. Surely if she was able to conceive and bear children, she does not have the same physical sexual dysfunctionalism that you typically point to in posts.
  3. Rape is never justified regardless of who the victim is. Each and every human being is created by God and can never be demeaned by another this way. This is basic christian teaching (which is not to say that all thsoe who call themselves ‘christians’ live by it as they should).
  4. Again, murder is always wrong regardless of who the victim is.
  5. I almost cannot believe such a thing could be true. But priests are, indeed human (see below). If you ever DO hear of such a thing, please try to determine who said priest was by name and report him to the Diocesan Bishop. Suicide is grave matter and potentially a mortal sin in Catholicism.
Summary and Theme
Each of these examples of yours show people behaving badly Humans are that way. We all need a Savior. Even when we manage to hold onto the goodness God created into us and restrain our base inclinations, we sometimes twist even that into sinfulness by ridiculously harsh reactions against what we perceive to be the sins of others. Jesus pointed out the absurdity of this in the parable of the indebted servant. The master had mercy and commuted sentence for the indebted servant. The forgiven servant was released and immediately went out and tormented those who owed HIM far lesser sums! But the fact that people have sinfully unjust reactions against sinful behavior does not mean that we should abandon moral standard. Some things are evil. But you don’t overcome evil with evil. That applies to your side as much as to ours on this issue. Evil can only be overcome by virtue aided by Grace. And Grace comes only from one place…
With all you said, please show us where ZOe is proosing the use of evil to overcome evil! Somehow I think a very important point was missed here.
 
Thank you, I should clarify. Zoe has made quite a number of posts related to transgender issues. Over time I’ve developed the distinct impression that her purpose here is to appeal to catholics innate sense of decency in order to ‘legitimize’ sex change operations and overall trans-gender behaviors and lifestyles. If I’m mistaken in this impression, I sincerely apologize and look forward to constructive correction.

I’ll admit that she has stumped me personally in the cases of some whose genetic gender is, in fact, difficult to determine medically. But as an engineer, I’m not exactly an expert on such matters and trust that folks like the National Catholic Bioethics Center has people who ARE to advise the bishops on such matters.

So my point was that as human beings we are as in peril of sinning by harsh over-reactions against other sinners as we are from falling into sin ourselves. They key is to recognize that BOTH are a hazard, not just one or the other.

Sometimes it seems to be a vocabulary issue as well. The CNN link Zoe made sounds a LOT like those boys were ALWAYS boys, but had a birth defect that hid their genitals inside the abdomen. That isn’t inter-sexed! It says nothing about them having a vagina, for example. They were just mis-identified as girls because the doctor/midwife didn’t see male genitals. I think it may be misleading to call their operation a “sex change” operation too. Sounds like all that happened was that the doctor relocated the genitals that already existed. That’s demonstrably NOT a ‘sex-change.’
 
Just to clarify: I in no way support the notion of transgender operations nor do I think any Christian should support it. All I was saying is that people are born with many physical disabilities, but it does not mean they should go about changing it in an immoral way or changing who they are as a person…
 
Thank you, I should clarify. Zoe has made quite a number of posts related to transgender issues. Over time I’ve developed the distinct impression that her purpose here is to appeal to catholics innate sense of decency in order to ‘legitimize’ sex change operations and overall trans-gender behaviors and lifestyles. If I’m mistaken in this impression, I sincerely apologize and look forward to constructive correction.

I’ll admit that she has stumped me personally in the cases of some whose genetic gender is, in fact, difficult to determine medically. But as an engineer, I’m not exactly an expert on such matters and trust that folks like the National Catholic Bioethics Center has people who ARE to advise the bishops on such matters.

So my point was that as human beings we are as in peril of sinning by harsh over-reactions against other sinners as we are from falling into sin ourselves. They key is to recognize that BOTH are a hazard, not just one or the other.

Sometimes it seems to be a vocabulary issue as well. The CNN link Zoe made sounds a LOT like those boys were ALWAYS boys, but had a birth defect that hid their genitals inside the abdomen. That isn’t inter-sexed! It says nothing about them having a vagina, for example. They were just mis-identified as girls because the doctor/midwife didn’t see male genitals. I think it may be misleading to call their operation a “sex change” operation too. Sounds like all that happened was that the doctor relocated the genitals that already existed. That’s demonstrably NOT a ‘sex-change.’
Please read this
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4899507&postcount=136

Obviously the church okayed some sex changes.
 
Just to clarify: I in no way support the notion of transgender operations nor do I think any Christian should support it. All I was saying is that people are born with many physical disabilities, but it does not mean they should go about changing it in an immoral way or changing who they are as a person…
It doesn’t change who they are as a person, it clarifies who they are as a person. Read this.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4899507&postcount=136
 
But as an engineer, I’m not exactly an expert on such matters and trust that folks like the National Catholic Bioethics Center has people who ARE to advise the bishops on such matters.’
In a word… no.

They deal with the ethics of euthanasia, stem cell research, abortion, contraception, organ donation, and hospital administration.

Not a single member belongs to the World Professional Association for Transgender Health. I doubt that they even know such an organisation exists.
John M. Haas is the President of The National Catholic Bioethics Center… Dr. Haas received his Ph.D. in Moral Theology from The Catholic University of America and his S.T.L. in Moral Theology from the University of Fribourg, Switzerland. He also has a Master of Divinity degree and has studied at the University of Munich and the University of Chicago Divinity School.
Dr. Furton serves in an active dual role at the NCBC as one of the Center’s four ethicists and also as Director of Publications…He received his master’s and doctoral degrees in philosophy from The Catholic University of America, Washington, D.C.
Director of Bioethics and Public Policy Dr. Hilliard holds graduate degrees in Maternal-Child Health Nursing, Religious Studies, Canon Law and Professional Higher Education Administration
Staff Ethicist Dr. Stephen Napier received his doctorate in philosophy from Saint Louis University. His dissertation was on virtue epistemology
Director of Education Fr. Tadeusz Pacholczyk is a priest of the diocese of Fall River, Massachusetts. As an undergraduate he earned degrees in philosophy, biochemistry, molecular cell biology, and chemistry, and did laboratory research on hormonal regulation of the immune response. He later earned a Ph.D. in Neuroscience from Yale University, where he focused on cloning genes for neurotransmitter transporters which are expressed in the brain. He also worked for several years as a molecular biologist at Massachusetts General Hospital/Harvard Medical School. Fr. Tad studied for 5 years in Rome where he did advanced work in dogmatic theology and in bioethics, examining the question of delayed ensoulment of the human embryo.
Between the 5 of them, they know as much about the issue as I do about the delayed ensoulment of the human embryo.

As ethicists though… one would be hard-pressed to find as stellar a collection of formidable intellect anywhere on the planet.
 
As I mentioned, I’m an engineer with little to no education in medicine or biology. It should be no surprise to anybody that I’m not personally able to refute charges and claims on a complex level. Zoe, you don’t seem to have noticed that I used the word “like” the NCBC. My perception and experience is that when the catholic hierarchy takes a stance on things, they don’t do so in a bubble. They consult with experts in the field to be educated on the scientific side of things.

I confess I have never heard of the organization you cite either. But you must admit that an awful lot of the field of sexual science and psychology is awfully politicized these days, no? My suspicion of secular scienctists on the matter comes from the highly politicized way the APA has taken positions on homosexuality based on shaky science performed by the likes of Kinsey and apparently ignores studies showing contrary findings by the likes of Dr. Joseph Nicolosi.

Zoe, I had a hard time comprehending the CNN article you linked to earlier. Would you clarify if you consider those two subject discussed in the article as “trans-gendered” or if they were simply males all along with a physical defect that caused the doctor/midwife at birth to misidentify them as female? I guess in my mind there is a big difference between someone who has genuine female sexual genitalia and gets a “sex change” operation and someone who simply has a birth defect that caused his male genitalia to be hidden at birth.
 
As I mentioned, I’m an engineer with little to no education in medicine or biology.
Oddly enough… so am I. I’m entirely self-taught, from a standing start in May 2005.

See why I’m so disturbed that I’m now looked on by genuine, credentialled experts in the field, Diamond, Italiano etc as having done some good work in the area, that according to them, I too am an “expert”?

OK, I had a very, very compelling reason to study the area.
My perception and experience is that when the catholic hierarchy takes a stance on things, they don’t do so in a bubble. They consult with experts in the field to be educated on the scientific side of things.
Indeed they do - or did. They consulted Dr Paul McHugh, who is about as reliable on the subject of transsexuality as Von Daniken is on extraterrestrial extremophiles. His “relaxed” view of paedophilia is at least partly responsible for the mess that the Church finds itself in too. Rather than rely on the far more competent internal scientists of the Society of Jesus, they brought in an outside expert. I’m sure you’ve been victimised by the phenomenon of the “consultant” who’s an incompetent quack in the problem domain, no matter how good he may be in other areas.

I may have disagreed with some of Fr Navarre SJ’s conclusions, but I can’t fault his scientific integrity.
I confess I have never heard of the organization you cite either. But you must admit that an awful lot of the field of sexual science and psychology is awfully politicized these days, no? My suspicion of secular scientists on the matter comes from the highly politicized way the APA has taken positions on homosexuality based on shaky science performed by the likes of Kinsey and apparently ignores studies showing contrary findings by the likes of Dr. Joseph Nicolosi.
My opinion of Dr Nicolosi is not very high I’m afraid, He continues to quote as gospel the works of Cameron, an admitted fraud who’s been thrown out of a dozen professional societies because of his penchant for making up stuff to fit his predetermined conclusions.
Oh yes, and has been caught committing perjury in court.

Dr Nicolosi’s opinions on the issue of transsexuality are based on a single work of 40 years ago, studying 3, yes, 3, Trans children, with no controls. Later studies showed no difference from controls. Genuine committed christian researchers in the area, such as Dr Warren Throckmorton, have nothing to do with NARTH and Dr Nicolosi now. They did in the past, until NARTH’s complete lack of scientific integrity, hunting for evidence to fit theologically permitted conclusions, drove them away.

As regards politicisation of professional institutions… um… er… well… OK, nolo contendare. I won’t attempt to defend the indefensible, and WPATH is not much different. Not in the same league as NARTH though, who have no actual scientists on board, and a complete monoculture of thought. Whatever WPATH may be, a monoculture it’s not.
Would you clarify if you consider those two subject discussed in the article as “trans-gendered” or if they were simply males all along with a physical defect that caused the doctor/midwife at birth to misidentify them as female?
Neither. I don’t subscribe to the umbrella definition of “transgender” which includes transvestites, transsexuals, the intersexed, drag queens, “political lesbians” and the like.

These four people are Intersexed. I call them boys and men based on their apparent neurology, though at least one appears to be bigendered, and could probably function in a female role if he had to.

Some people with 17BHDD are women, and desperately seek medical treatment to prevent the male puberty that would naturally occur. Some are men, who just as desperately seek surgical “finishing touches” to transform somewhat masculinised apparent female genitalia into somewhat feminised actual male genitalia. The “natural sex change” can vary, you see. In some cases, it just makes a somewhat masculinised apparent female a bit more masculinised. In others, it makes an almost normal-looking female genitalia into a definitely masculine set with few anomalies.

And some just go with the flow. This is described in some detail in Peggy Cohen-Ketternis’ work Gender change in 46,XY persons with 5alpha-reductase-2 deficiency and 17beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase-3 deficiency.

Note this critique from Prof Italiano though, chief scientist of Organisation Intersex International:
Dear Zoe, You mentioned the study by Cohen-Kettenis on 5 Alpha Reductase 2 deficiency and 17 Beta HSD 3 deficiency. I might add that this study was in the infamous ASB journal and Cohen-Kettenis seems to be adversely influenced by some of those people. For instance, she noted that some individuals develop a male gender identity and some develop a female gender identity in each of the two conditions and that this is independent of the severity of the mutation. She cites the noted endocrinologist Jean D. Wilson and his research on this. She then goes on to attribute the difference in the gender outcomes which are independent of the severity of the mutation to social factors, while completely OMITTING that Dr. Wilson suggested that the difference in gender identity outcomes which are independent of the severity of the mutation, are the result of variations in the compensation of alternative enzymatic pathways.
Sorry, don’t want to either blind you with science, or baffle you with BS. The point is, that about 1 in 3 are women, 1 in 3 men, and 1 in 3 able to function with adequate (not necessarily equal) facility in either gender role. Biology is messy.
(contd)
 
I guess in my mind there is a big difference between someone who has genuine female sexual genitalia and gets a “sex change” operation and someone who simply has a birth defect that caused his male genitalia to be hidden at birth.
Working with Intersex people, you’ll see that while most people are obviously male or obviously female, in some cases whether genitalia is “genuinely” male or “genuinely” female is a matter of some debate. There’s more to sex than genitalia. Or chromosomes, for that matter.

Example - one I know well:

I had testes that were partly functional for about 3 years of my life. I also probably had ovarian tissue that was vestigial at best, and was removed at age 20 without my knowledge or consent. I went in for a standard gallbladder removal, and awoke with a wound from bikini-line to breastbone, where my entire abdominal cavity had been worked on.

I had what appeared to be a standard microphallus, but which atrophied to become an enlarged masculinised clitoris at puberty. Genitally, I was closer to male norms than female ones, even after a female puberty. I didn’t look it, as the greatly atrophied (and dysfunctional) testes had retracted into the abdomen, but an expert examination would have picked up the telltale signs. Basically, I probably looked a lot like these cases of BHDD before their puberty.

My endocrine system on the other hand… 100% normal female. The masculinisation of the clitoris strongly resembled that of 46xx women with Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia, and ultrasounds showed anomalies in the adrenals consistent with that. The atrophied testes showed signs of behaving more like ovaries than anything else, and when removed, my levels of estrogen plummeted, while testosterone stayed the same.

At the time, this was inexplicable. Recent (as in, in the last few weeks) research on the FOXL9 and SOXL2 genes, showing that there’s a single switch that controls whether a gland will behave as a testis or ovary (hormonally anyway) provides a very plausible explanation.

See how complex it is? Now in terms of my sex identity (usually called gender identity), I was female. A tomboy, sure. All girls with CAH are. But I’d picked the new name “Zoe” at age 10.

I had genital reconstruction surgery. Technically not sex reassignment surgery, as by then I’d been diagnosed as female not male, but called by everyone sex reassignment surgery anyway. These boys and men are in a mirror image situation. I wouldn’t call the procedure “sex reassignment” surgery, just genital reconstruction. But call it SRS anyway, because that’s the common term, even if inaccurate. It’s one even laypeople can understand.

Feel free to ask questions, manualman

Zoe
 
I had genital reconstruction surgery. Technically not sex reassignment surgery, as by then I’d been diagnosed as female not male, but called by everyone sex reassignment surgery anyway. These boys and men are in a mirror image situation. I wouldn’t call the procedure “sex reassignment” surgery, just genital reconstruction. But call it SRS anyway, because that’s the common term, even if inaccurate. It’s one even laypeople can understand.

Feel free to ask questions, manualman

Zoe
You’re extremely brave to share your personal struggles so freely. As you say and obviously prove, biology is messy. I still boggle at why you would so freely surrender to the “sex reassignment surgery” terminology if you are (if I comprehend you correctly) convinced that the operation is NOT a “sex change” but at least a partial correction of a part of the anatomy that developed incorrectly (not following norms).

My (admittedly laymen) perspective is that by using incorrect terminology you start off discussions at a handicap of misunderstanding. And I should admit that I’m just a civil engineer, we do the easier stuff. Our motto: If what we designed moves, we screwed up! Y’all GOTTA be the ChemE variety!

I’ll be gone a few days, but I appreciate your perspective. Happy new year!
 
I still boggle at why you would so freely surrender to the “sex reassignment surgery” terminology if you are (if I comprehend you correctly) convinced that the operation is NOT a “sex change” but at least a partial correction of a part of the anatomy that developed incorrectly (not following norms).
Because with these guys, in a legal sense it is sex reassignment surgery.
They are currently legally female, and cannot have that designation changed until the surgery is performed.

In cases of severe intersex, such as mine, the exact same operation can be regarded as sex reassignment or genital reconstruction, depending upon the proportion of the cells with 46xx, 46xy, 47xxy, and 45x chromosomes, and no other factor. Disregarding the neuro-anatomy, the same person can be considered more biologically male, or more biologically female, depending entirely on whether they’ve had a blood transfusion or not!

Which is why I use neuro-anatomy, and the consequent sense of self as male or female, as the touchstone. This just minimises, but doesn’t prevent, the problem. Because neurology can also be ambiguous. In that case, the kindest thing to do is what was done by the Church in the Middle Ages: you ask them what sex they are.

One difference - I’d extend that principle, so that whenever the neuro-anatomy is obviously male, or obviously female, you disregard the rest of the criteria. Because the sex identity, the neuro-anatomically caused sense of self, is invariant, even in the face of somatic changes such as in this case. All the rest (yes, even chromosomes - as in a bone marrow transplant, or cell turnover in the case of mosaics and chimerae with multiple cell lines) can change due to entirely natural causes.

The Church is right when it says that such external changes are superficial. They’re incorrect when they use arbitrary criteria, such as a coin-toss, to decide what sex someone is. And that happens to intersexed people - they get assigned a gender depending on superficial appearance at birth, or quite literally in cases of severe ambiguity by a coin-toss, or what the parents would most like, or which technique the available surgeon has most experience in.

Transsexuals are an extreme form of this. They appear to be normal, but the exact opposite of the gender dictated by their neurology. This contradiction causes severe distress, so bad it’s usually fatal in the long term unless the body is made congruent with the neurology.

5 years ago, I was to all intents and purposes a transsexual woman. One with a mild intersex condition, as many transsexual women have. Chromosomally, psychologically, and in every respect but one (a minor genetic glitch - we think) the same as all other transsexual women.

Yet just because I had an ill-understood syndrome that caused a female puberty, and so forced me to transition, I’m supposed to get a moral “pass” for my condition, while other women are condemned for getting it treated voluntarily rather than dying from it.

Sorry, but that condemnation is wrong. It’s not just incorrect, it’s cruel. Either condemn all, or condemn none. I refuse to let my peculiar situation excuse my state, and if I’d had the courage, I would have voluntarily sought treatment long ago. Rather than being in a morally superior position to transsexuals, I am morally their inferior.

I still haven’t worked out why someone so as unworthy as I, even more unworthy than others, got a miracle cure, when those who deserved it far more, who prayed to all the saints in heaven, did not. I’m not even Christian, let alone Catholic!

Why me, Oh Lord? Why was I blessed, and why does everyone congratulate me for “carrying a cross” while others with real crosses to bear get no sympathy, only contempt?

So I do what I can to help, out of a sense of moral outrage at the injustice of it all.

And that brings me back to the original post that started this thread.
 
Thank you, I should clarify. Zoe has made quite a number of posts related to transgender issues. Over time I’ve developed the distinct impression that her purpose here is to appeal to catholics innate sense of decency in order to ‘legitimize’ sex change operations
Sort of. I’m not telling people what to think, as I’m not sure myself. I wish to lay the facts before them. The “appeal to catholics inate sense of decency” is exactly what I’m doing. My own views on the morality are questionable, my objectivity hopelessly compromised. So I’m here to listen, as much as teach.
and overall trans-gender behaviors and lifestyles. ’
There I honestly don’t know. I’m a very conservative person, so when it comes to “lifestyles”, areas where there is true moral choice - I try to judge not, lest I be judged. Few make the distinction between festishistic transvestites and myself, I suffer the same persecution they do.
Yes, I’m being a moral coward here.
If I’m mistaken in this impression, I sincerely apologize and look forward to constructive correction.
Close enough for government work 🙂

Zoe
 
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