Something we take for granted in the Gay Marriage and Contraception debate

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I realize than many Christians assume that the family is the the nucleus of a society, and rightly so! But I think we forget that today many people do not believe or even necessarily understand that. Today the thinking of the average person is that the individual is the nucleus of society. To us, government is an extension of the family (and thus respecting it’s authority falls under the Commandment to honor our parents) but to them the government is literally a bunch of individuals watching out for a bunch of other individuals.

So, let’s work back to the roots of discussion on these matters - namely communitarianism vs. individualism.
 
Once we take it back to a communitarian level it’s easier to understand the Church’s opposition to gay marriage, because it no longer seems a struggle over the rights of individuals but rather a concern about the common good. I’m certainly not the only person to realize that many of the issues that are called “rights” issues these days are rather focused on individualism instead of the greater good. Hence the reasoning behind people supporting abortion, contraception, the relaxation of drug laws, and the general “loosening of the fetters” of the individual in modern day debates.
 
Interesting point. No time to comment now, but I’ll be back later.

I agree that the family seems to be giving way to individualism these days. But I’m just an old lady with old fashioned values.🤷
 
I think maybe the current trend might have something to do with the increasing urban society structure. When people were scattered with less means of communication/interaction, they had only their family to rely on. They needed each other to provide basic commodities, furnish the home, prepare meals etc. In our ‘technologically enhanced’ society, while we are still dependent on others (factory workers, farmers, etc) we don’t actually come face to face with one another in those needs. That coupled with the increase of texting, emailing, social networking, et al… it becomes ever more commonplace to never interact with others except when necessary.

Even in our religions we seem to be drawing away from a communal faith, and attempting to relegate it to only a ‘personal relationship’ with God. While I agree that we do indeed need to know God personally, we are also a community of believers. Our ‘parent’ faith was very much about the community, and clearly the early church followed that same pattern. A few days ago a young lady contacted me on facebook and shared an email with me from one of her church members. That church member told her she should avoid going to church and instead stay home and watch preachers on TV, that she would get a lot more out of her ‘personal’ relationship with Christ if she’d stay away from people. People would just confuse her.

I think that sort of mentality is starting to creep into many of the denominations out there. Yet, how can we truly live the gospel alone? Ignoring all of the rest of society? How can we love our brother if we never see him, don’t even know where he is or what if he’s even still alive?
 
Basically the present generation of parents (having children of marriageable age) and the parents of the current generation of parents are to be blamed for this. In their enthusiasm to provide the best for their kids for a comfortable life ended by creating islands rather than communities. This compounded by the new secular education system encouraging competition (cut throat) leading to single parenting, children from outside the institution of marriage, living in relationship with no strings, etc. and now the end result same sex marriage and all such **** in the name of individual freedom and right.
 
This compounded by the new secular education system encouraging competition (cut throat) .
I have always viewed our current system in America to actually discourage competition. ‘Everyone is a winner.’ ‘Everyone get’s a trophy’. Etc. In a world where we penalize children and remove them from games because they excel compared to their counterparts, it seems to me competition is discouraged. Recently I read an article where one child was only allowed to play for part of the game, because he was scoring too much and the other kids weren’t getting to score.
 
Once we take it back to a communitarian level it’s easier to understand the Church’s opposition to gay marriage, because it no longer seems a struggle over the rights of individuals but rather a concern about the common good.
That analogy worries me, since it would hold true that while the common (‘averaged’) good might be advanced, it might be done so on the basis of an individual suffering harm. It seems like a ‘relativistic’ theory to me, and I’m pretty sure the Church doesn’t like that sort of thing.

I see the direction of the argument, but the specifics of it don’t work for me.
 
That analogy worries me, since it would hold true that while the common (‘averaged’) good might be advanced, it might be done so on the basis of an individual suffering harm. It seems like a ‘relativistic’ theory to me, and I’m pretty sure the Church doesn’t like that sort of thing.

I see the direction of the argument, but the specifics of it don’t work for me.
True. I saw the potential for that problem to arise in my argument. I don’t know how to put it together any better though. I guess you could say that there’s a whole lot of other contingencies to deal with here.

Reminds me of some of the things that were going on during the Crusades. You couldn’t have heretics preaching willy-nilly and “harming the greater good”… but they had the opposite problem of having to defend the rights of the heretics too because vigilantes were whacking them!
 
Grace & Peace!
I’m certainly not the only person to realize that many of the issues that are called “rights” issues these days are rather focused on individualism instead of the greater good.
I agree whole-heartedly with this–we have a fundamental misconception of what a right is. I’m a big fan of Simone Weil’s book outlining a possible reconstruction of France after WWII (called “The Need for Roots”) in which she begins with a discussion of rights and responsibilities. She writes that if we lived in a vacuum, we would have no rights, but we would still have responsibilities, if only to ourselves. Rights are not intrinsic to our humanity, therefore, but responsibilities are. This leads her to an idea of rights as formed in community but as stemming from the concept of responsibility–in other words, what I perceive as your rights are my responsibilities to you. An individual, therefore, cannot claim any rights for him or herself, but can only acknowledge that he or she has a duty to others. Weil conceives of an other-oriented society in which the ideal is that everyone will meet each other’s needs because they recognize their various responsibilities to each other.

The moment that we consistently cease to follow through on our duties to each other is the moment that a right becomes divorced from the life of a community, becomes something to be policed, little more than a legal concept that comes to us from outside community, outside our shared life together and is thus alienated from us, transformed into a sign of state power. A right then becomes a claim on an exercise of that power, and potentially a burden on our common life together, particularly when the “right” is illegitimate (which is to say, it does not legitimately arise from an acknowledgement of human dignity and our responsibilities to it, or from the legitimate and real needs of the community in question). Community becomes lost because we begin to lose each other–we begin to rely on the state to enforce rights rather than on each other.

In a culture such as ours, steeped as it is in an ethic of competition, an ethic of us against them rather than us for them, a culture of acquisition rather than a culture of the gift, all rights to one extent or another have become the property of the state and alienated from us. The way we conduct our lives, the way we allow ourselves to be governed, the way we transact our business, all of it indicates that we have abdicated our responsibilities to each other because we fear that others will not meet their responsibilities to us. Our fear is not unjustified, but it is nonetheless corrosive; it continues to erode the fabric of our common life together. Rights once seen as inalienable (because they arise out of our common responsibilities to our common humanity) become negotiable. “Things fall apart, the center cannot hold,” as Yeats wrote.

Re: marriage–there’s a lot of individualist baggage over the past couple centuries that has moved it from being a clearly social institution to being a kind of “seal of approval” on a particular couple’s romantic relationship. Gay marriage wouldn’t be a question if that movement hadn’t been made first. There’s a lot of work that would need to be done in this arena in order to rehabilitate marriage…and I imagine that many of us would find what’s needed to be more than a little distasteful (like a willingness to welcome and support arranged marriages, for instance).

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!
 
A few words from Pope Benedict:

"Pope Benedict XVI goes on to say:
Code:
"We are moving toward a dictatorship of relativism which does not recognize anything as for certain and which has as its highest goal one’s own ego and one’s own desires. The church must defend itself against threats such as “radical individualism” and “vague religious mysticism”. [emphasis added]
Source: practicalcatholic.wordpress.com/2011/04/19/pope-benedict-xvi-on-society-and-truth/

Peace,
Ed
 
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