Sometimes I don't know where I stand

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Saint_wannabe

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I feel divided many times on who I should be listening to. Sometimes I struggle with things I read in Scripture as well. Is it okay to feel the way I do? I think its a good thing to question most things, but sometimes I feel like I’m walking a fine line, and I don’t want to be on the wrong side. Let me give you all a few examples.
  1. Do any of you feel like the Catholic Church sometimes oversteps its boundary lines? I say this having a great love for the Catholic Church, and knowing that I’m a sinner in need of God’s mercy just like everyone else, but some things just bother me sometimes. God gives severe warnings in both the New and Old Testaments about being careful about following man made rules too closely, and at the same time, setting aside the Commandments of God. I wonder if we as Catholics are guilty of doing that sometimes.
Iv’e listened to many Catholic media outlets and Iv’e heard many priests talking about the fact that we as Catholics need to protest the weddings of our friends, if they are getting married outside of the Catholic Church. Didn’t Jesus perform his first miracle at a wedding feast? Does it say in Scripture that everyone there was a good and righteous person? Aren’t we supposed to love the sinner but hate the sin? Are we supposed to forsake a relationship just because one of our friends gets married outside of the Catholic Church? I can’t help but find that very ironic, especially when I hear the media reporting that our current Pope recently celebrated and honored a Bishop at a Mass, who was responsible for hiding many pedophilia priests who should have been turned over to the authority’s to face justice. How do you all feel about this?

Is there humility in thinking that we as Catholics have all of the answers and everyone else is just wrong? Weren’t many Pharisees and hypocrites in Scripture wrong when they laughed at many of the Prophets including Jesus Himself, because they thought that they had all of the answers?
  1. There are a few things in Scripture that bother me as well, and I think its okay and healthy that I discern these things, what do you all think?
Sometimes I find myself feeling sorry for Judas. Scripture tells us that after he realized what he had done, he went out and hung himself because he felt so badly. Scripture also tells me that he is condemned, because Jesus tells him, “It would be better if that person were never born.” How am I supposed to feel about that? Don’t we all make some pretty big mistakes that we all regret? If it wouldn’t have been Judas, it would have been someone else, because the Scriptures needed to be fulfilled.

I have other thoughts on these matters as well, but I’ll just post these for response purposes to get this thread going, and I don’t want this to turn into a million word rant.

I love the word of God, I love the Catholic Church as well, but I also think that its okay to discern these things. I think God wants our love and praise, but I also think that He wants us to be real with him. I don’t think God wants a bunch of butt kissers. How do you all feel about this? What contradictions do you have? What advise if any would you offer?
 
Ah my friend, and my brother in Christ, I can see your mind is wandering literally everywhere.

Let me first open with a couple Bible passages
“Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me(Jesus).”- John 14:1
"I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.- John 14:18

Now it seems to me that you are worrying too much. But thats ok, dont we all:o
  1. Do any of you feel like the Catholic Church sometimes oversteps its boundary lines?
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Over the course of history, the Church has done many things that are very controversial like, the crusades, and the inquisition, etc. Some of them were necessary, but others were beyond good intentions. But what you must realize is that the Church militant (The Church o Earth) has asked for forgiveness time and time again. I think that When jesus said *“The gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” Matthew 16:18
  • im pretty sure he was referring that the Church at some times will at times suffer much persecution, but also error (NOT in the ways of dogma or theology, etc). I was almost as if Christ was saying in a polite way: "Ok look, dont get too comfortable because you will have to protect my Church at all costs from those who seek to destroy it. And believe me, there will come at least one time where the Church will ‘cross the line.’
God gives severe warnings in both the New and Old Testaments about being careful about following man made rules too closely, and at the same time, setting aside the Commandments of God. I wonder if we as Catholics are guilty of doing that sometimes.
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Please remember that God punishes those who he loves. But when a Father chastises his children, he doesn’t do it out of reproach or anger or hate, but out of love, and concern for his children’s well being. And Im guessing that by ‘Catholics’ you are using a generalization. Yes Catholics throughout the world tend to be scruple. Thats all I can tell you regarding this
Is there humility in thinking that we as Catholics have all of the answers and everyone else is just wrong? Weren’t many Pharisees and hypocrites in Scripture wrong when they laughed at many of the Prophets including Jesus Himself, because they thought that they had all of the answers?
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There is no humility in thinking this…the Church doesn’t hold all the answers to the universe no. But when it comes to say for example, the dignity of human life I believe the Church will do all in it’s power to admonishes the errors of the world, as well as justify what God himself has said regarding this issue. THIS is NOT boasting, but rather in a way submitting itself under obedience to a God who has been rejected. THAT is indeed humility.
What advise if any would you offer?
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Pray. As Padre Pio said “Pray hope, and don’t worry” indeed it is in our human nature to try and find answers to everything. Remember God understands our frailty. He doesnt expect you to understand everything. indeed just by confessing to God “Lord, I do not understand this.” Is a sign of pure faith simply because A. You acknowldged God, and B. you went to him first with childlike confidance in his will.
indeed, I can tell you have a ‘pure faith’ in God. Just hang in their buddy God will answer you in due time :console:
 
Out of the two responses that Iv’e received so far, nobody has had the guts (for lack of a better word) to step up and answer some of the more important questions that are bothering me. I know that the secular media is on a witch hunt against the Catholic Church, but I can’t call everything I see a witch hunt. When I recently heard that our current Pope was honoring a bishop and celebrating a Holy Mass with this man who was responsible for hiding many pedophile priests, it made me very angry. How can the Pope do that? Does a good and loving God want you and I to go too jail for breaking a simple law, but wants pedophile priests hidden from prosecution at the same time? I find that hard to believe. If I were to drive my car drunk, or drive my car uninsured, unlicensed, etc, I would deserve to be thrown in jail. How much more for a man who molests an innocent child and scars that child for life? I don’t understand why the Pope would honor someone who helped hide & relocate many of these priests, and then in some cases, they went out and did it again. And I especially don’t understand why the Pope would think its a good idea to celebrate a Holy Mass with a man like this.

I also don’t understand why I hear priests telling people that they shouldn’t attend a wedding ceremony if its not Catholic. I know many people who have been married outside of the Catholic Church, and I consider many of them better people than I am. Didn’t Jesus attend a wedding feast? I would understand if the marriage was satanic or pornographic in nature, but otherwise I don’t. We as Catholics are supposed to forsake relationships because someones not getting married in a Catholic Church? Again, I think on both of these issues, the church is stepping over the line. What do you think a good and loving God would be more angry about? Do you think He would be more angry about someone attending a wedding where a Catholic is married thats outside of the church, or would he be more angry about child molesters being hidden, and a man being honored for doing so?

Also the other question that everyone has stayed away from: We as Catholics are not to assume that anyone is burning eternally in hell, but doesn’t Scripture tell us that Judas was condemned? Didn’t Jesus Himself say of Judas who betrayed him, “It would be better off for that man if he were to never be born.”? Should I feel sorry for Judas? Should I suppose that God changed his mind? What about all of the times Iv’e betrayed Jesus with all of my sins? How should I feel? I can’t help but to feel sorry for Judas sometimes, because in Scripture, it says that he regretted what he did and then he went out and hung himself.
 
Saint_wannabe said:
Out of the two responses that Iv’e received so far, nobody has had the guts (for lack of a better word) to step up and answer some of the more important questions that are bothering me.
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Maybe you could prioritize your questions for us.
 
I am going to answer your wedding question a bit.

The Church does not forbid or discourage us from attending weddings in other churches **if **the persons getting married are not Baptized Catholics. The Church does recognize the validity of other faiths’ wedding ceremonies. If you have two friends who are both, oh, let’s say, Lutheran, you are certainly permitted to go to the Lutheran Church where your friends are getting married!

The Catholic Church does, however, discourage us from attending the wedding of a Catholic person whose wedding is not held in a Catholic Church. That is to prevent the appearance that you are agreeing Marriage is not a Sacrament of the Catholic Church. If you do agree Marriage is a Sacrament for Catholics, the wedding must be within a Catholic Church.

There are certain allowances to this - but those must be addressed by the Bishop and permission to marry outside the Church (Catholic) be given to the couple. That would be in the instance of a Catholic marrying outside his/her faith, for instance.

Also, I know that if the wedding does have one Catholic person, but the wedding is not held in a Catholic Church, you may attend the wedding if there would be a serious reason to go - such as the decision to not attend would create serious disharmony in your own marriage. One should ask a priest beforehand to make certain of the situation in mind.

Yes - Jesus went to at least one wedding - the wedding at Cana - and performed His first miracle there. But the wedding feast was Jewish and Jesus wasa Jewish Man. This has no true bearing on whether we should attend weddings of Catholics who have the ceremony outside the Church.

I do also love the Word of God and my Catholic faith. I also think it is fine to do private discernment. But I do not believe it is ok to “discern” for oneself to he point one behaves outside of what the Church tells us to do. I feel that way because the “discernment” of the particular matter was already done by persons whose experience, education, and relationship with God I trust to be my guidance. Otherwise, why belong to any church at all? If you or I can “discern” everything for ourselves, then we do not need a church at all!

I do not mean this to say that I blindly follow what things the Church tells me as some sort of a robot. But it means that in important matters of faith, I do follow where the Church leads. The Church is my Mother and I do believe my Mother will not lead me astray and She knows what is best for me.
 
Razz(name removed by moderator) said:
I am going to answer your wedding question a bit.

The Church does not forbid or discourage us from attending weddings in other churches **if **the persons getting married are not Baptized Catholics. The Church does recognize the validity of other faiths’ wedding ceremonies. If you have two friends who are both, oh, let’s say, Lutheran, you are certainly permitted to go to the Lutheran Church where your friends are getting married!

The Catholic Church does, however, discourage us from attending the wedding of a Catholic person whose wedding is not held in a Catholic Church. That is to prevent the appearance that you are agreeing Marriage is not a Sacrament of the Catholic Church. If you do agree Marriage is a Sacrament for Catholics, the wedding must be within a Catholic Church.

There are certain allowances to this - but those must be addressed by the Bishop and permission to marry outside the Church (Catholic) be given to the couple. That would be in the instance of a Catholic marrying outside his/her faith, for instance.

Also, I know that if the wedding does have one Catholic person, but the wedding is not held in a Catholic Church, you may attend the wedding if there would be a serious reason to go - such as the decision to not attend would create serious disharmony in your own marriage. One should ask a priest beforehand to make certain of the situation in mind.

Yes - Jesus went to at least one wedding - the wedding at Cana - and performed His first miracle there. But the wedding feast was Jewish and Jesus wasa Jewish Man. This has no true bearing on whether we should attend weddings of Catholics who have the ceremony outside the Church.

I do also love the Word of God and my Catholic faith. I also think it is fine to do private discernment. But I do not believe it is ok to “discern” for oneself to he point one behaves outside of what the Church tells us to do. I feel that way because the “discernment” of the particular matter was already done by persons whose experience, education, and relationship with God I trust to be my guidance. Otherwise, why belong to any church at all? If you or I can “discern” everything for ourselves, then we do not need a church at all!

I do not mean this to say that I blindly follow what things the Church tells me as some sort of a robot. But it means that in important matters of faith, I do follow where the Church leads. The Church is my Mother and I do believe my Mother will not lead me astray and She knows what is best for me.
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Thank you for your honest & heart felt reply, it means more than you know. I wasn’t trying to just go on a rant against the church, but I’m afraid not everyone here may have taken it that way. 😦 I try to give advice where I can on here, but I also look for advice on here as well, knowing fully well that I damn sure don’t have all the answers. 🙂

A brief side note on this rant of mine. (for lack of a better word) When I heard the news about the Pope celebrating a Mass & honoring a bishop who was responsible for hiding many pedophile priests, I almost left Catholic websites like CAF, 4Marks, and the Catholic Church altogether. I was seriously ready to go new church shopping at that very moment.

My wife has since talked some sense into me. The way my wife put it to me made allot of sense. She told me first of all, we don’t live in Rome or the Vatican, we live in Illinois and this is our community, & we have many friends in the church.

Secondly and most importantly, she told me that we don’t go to church to worship the Pope. 🙂
 
Saint_wannabe said:
Thank you for your honest & heart felt reply, it means more than you know. I wasn’t trying to just go on a rant against the church, but I’m afraid not everyone here may have taken it that way. 😦 I try to give advice where I can on here, but I also look for advice on here as well, knowing fully well that I damn sure don’t have all the answers. 🙂

A brief side note on this rant of mine. (for lack of a better word) When I heard the news about the Pope celebrating a Mass & honoring a bishop who was responsible for hiding many pedophile priests, I almost left Catholic websites like CAF, 4Marks, and the Catholic Church altogether. I was seriously ready to go new church shopping at that very moment.

My wife has since talked some sense into me. The way my wife put it to me made allot of sense. She told me first of all, we don’t live in Rome or the Vatican, we live in Illinois and this is our community, & we have many friends in the church.

**Secondly and most importantly, she told me that we don’t go to church to worship the Pope. :)/**QUOTE]

(The bolding was by me.)

That was the exact thing I told my husband when he got really angry at one of our parish priests a few years ago. He was like you - he wanted to stop going to Church and drop being a Catholic because of one dumb (and I mean it with love!) priest! Isn’t it nice that we wives keep you guys behaving yourselves! LOL

I seem to recall reading that the Pope had accepted that priest’s heartfelt apology and heard his confession.

Anyway - I am happy you are still a member of our Holy Catholic Church!

BTW: Since your request to friend, I took a look at my profile and updated it. It was quite old.
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Out of the two responses that Iv’e received so far, nobody has had the guts (for lack of a better word) to step up and answer some of the more important questions that are bothering me.
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Wannabe:

It would be great to be able to look at the present day Church and at the Church throughout history and find no faults, no failings amongst its members or leaders. Obviously, that’s not the way it goes. We all originate from dust and that’s all we’re made of I’m afraid: that includes the pope, the bishops, and all the saints.

Much of what the leadership of the Church has done over the years is positively scandalous. You cite Pope Benedict honouring a bishop who protected predator priests. I am not familiar with this story, myself, but if it is true, it is a scandal. And the current pope shouldn’t necessarily be regarded as saintly simply because he’s current. The wicked popes of the past were once the current pope, too.

We’ve had a few doozies in the Chair of Peter over the centuries. One immediately thinks of Alexander VI and his mistresses and his illegitimate children. I recently read that one of the many Popes John–which one I no longer recall–wrote a recipe book for various concoctions for contraception while he was a bishop. Another pope (again, which I cannot recall) was apparently into the occult. The current Pope as a young man chose not to valiantly refuse to participate in a Nazi youth organization. Sure it was mandatory, but he could have said no and been jailed or even martyred for it. But he didn’t. I probably wouldn’t have, either, were I in his shoes. Human beings aren’t always strong. A number of our popes were unchaste, many were temporally ambitious, and all of them were made of dust, like you and me.

The Church may be infallible, but it is by no means impeccable. The first pope denied Christ three times, didn’t he? Another of the original Apostles, chosen by Christ, himself, betrayed Our Lord for money, as you’ve already pointed out. We human beings are a bunch of rotters and the things we sometimes do are appalling. That goes for you and me, and it goes for the pope and the bishops…even for the Apostles.

Look at the Inquisition. Look at the scandalous sack of Constantinople. Look at the Spanish slaughter of Native Americans. Look at the current abuse crisis. We suck. Humanly speaking, the leaders of the Church are worse than useless sometimes.

Despite all of this I retain my faith in the Church…because she is Jesus Christ’s Church, because of her Head and despite her members.

But, yes, that faith can be shaken by the bad examples of the Church’s members and her leaders. I don’t blame you for having doubts and concerns. We all do. None of us likes to see bishops and priests behaving in a scandalous manner. But it’s important, at those times, to bear in mind the Divinity of the Church, when faced with horrible examples of the Church’s humanity.

It isn’t wrong to look at the Church today, to point to things that are wrong, and to call the Church on the carpet. The example you offered about the pope honouring a bad bishop may be a case in point, I don’t know. As I say, I’m not familiar with that report. But if it is as black and white as you present it, then it was wrong, and the pope will have to answer for it.

Don’t be bothered that you can see right from wrong and that you are frank enough to acknowledge the wrong you see. Our purpose is not to duck our heads in the sand in denial and refuse to accept that the human Church can err. Nobody is called to behave that way. Quite the contrary, in fact.

I would caution, however, that not everything you see or every story you read is necessarily black and white. Before being appalled by something, just be sure you’ve got all the details, and every side of the story. Sometimes things seem scandalous which, if we had all the details, are actually not.

But other times, what we see is just what’s going on. And in those circumstances, it’s not at all wrong to point the finger and say: “Your Holiness, that’s wrong!” or “Father, that’s evil.”

Stay vigilant!
 
Pregustator: What a wonderful response! Thank you! I am glad that SaintWannabe asked what he did.
 
Personally, I really struggled with similar questions for quite a while. In fact, I was away from Catholicism for about 20 years before my search finally led me back. Like Pregustator said, infalible doesn’t mean impeccable. Realizing that helped me a lot.

Recently I heard a priest talking about folks that stay away from Church because of “all the hypocrites.” He tells them, “Come on in! There’s room for one more!” 😃

I’ve also heard it said that if there was a “perfect” (impeccable) church, as soon as you walked in it would cease to be so. 😃

Don’t lose heart. Ultimately, we don’t put our faith in popes or bishops but in God.

Like Pregustator said, stay vigilant! We are to expect wolves among the sheep. And never leave Peter because of Judas. 🙂
 
Recently I heard a priest talking about folks that stay away from Church because of “all the hypocrites.” He tells them, “Come on in! There’s room for one more!”
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Great quote. Love it!
And never leave Peter because of Judas.
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Love that one, too!
Ultimately, we don’t put our faith in popes or bishops but in God.
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Remember that it was Catholic bishops who burned St. Joan of Arc at the stake! Yet despite being burned by the Church–literally–she remained a faithful Catholic until death.

As far as the Church overstepping her bounds, that too. The pope, remember, took for himself the Roman Emperor’s pagan title of “Pontifex Maximus” and surrounded himself in imperial splendour: ostrich feather fans, armed and uniformed guards, portable thrones, and all! He became something of an emperor of the West, in fact, himself; no longer merely the bishop of Rome and shepherd of the Universal Church, but a temporal political power. One could argue that there was no justification for that development, and that it damaged, rather than glorified, the Church.

Was Peter meant to rule the world, or to stand against it? To me, the answer is clear.
 
Pregustator said:
Wannabe:

It would be great to be able to look at the present day Church and at the Church throughout history and find no faults, no failings amongst its members or leaders. Obviously, that’s not the way it goes. We all originate from dust and that’s all we’re made of I’m afraid: that includes the pope, the bishops, and all the saints.

Much of what the leadership of the Church has done over the years is positively scandalous. You cite Pope Benedict honouring a bishop who protected predator priests. I am not familiar with this story, myself, but if it is true, it is a scandal. And the current pope shouldn’t necessarily be regarded as saintly simply because he’s current. The wicked popes of the past were once the current pope, too.

We’ve had a few doozies in the Chair of Peter over the centuries. One immediately thinks of Alexander VI and his mistresses and his illegitimate children. I recently read that one of the many Popes John–which one I no longer recall–wrote a recipe book for various concoctions for contraception while he was a bishop. Another pope (again, which I cannot recall) was apparently into the occult. The current Pope as a young man chose not to valiantly refuse to participate in a Nazi youth organization. Sure it was mandatory, but he could have said no and been jailed or even martyred for it. But he didn’t. I probably wouldn’t have, either, were I in his shoes. Human beings aren’t always strong. A number of our popes were unchaste, many were temporally ambitious, and all of them were made of dust, like you and me.

The Church may be infallible, but it is by no means impeccable. The first pope denied Christ three times, didn’t he? Another of the original Apostles, chosen by Christ, himself, betrayed Our Lord for money, as you’ve already pointed out. We human beings are a bunch of rotters and the things we sometimes do are appalling. That goes for you and me, and it goes for the pope and the bishops…even for the Apostles.

Look at the Inquisition. Look at the scandalous sack of Constantinople. Look at the Spanish slaughter of Native Americans. Look at the current abuse crisis. We suck. Humanly speaking, the leaders of the Church are worse than useless sometimes.

Despite all of this I retain my faith in the Church…because she is Jesus Christ’s Church, because of her Head and despite her members.

But, yes, that faith can be shaken by the bad examples of the Church’s members and her leaders. I don’t blame you for having doubts and concerns. We all do. None of us likes to see bishops and priests behaving in a scandalous manner. But it’s important, at those times, to bear in mind the Divinity of the Church, when faced with horrible examples of the Church’s humanity.

It isn’t wrong to look at the Church today, to point to things that are wrong, and to call the Church on the carpet. The example you offered about the pope honouring a bad bishop may be a case in point, I don’t know. As I say, I’m not familiar with that report. But if it is as black and white as you present it, then it was wrong, and the pope will have to answer for it.

Don’t be bothered that you can see right from wrong and that you are frank enough to acknowledge the wrong you see. Our purpose is not to duck our heads in the sand in denial and refuse to accept that the human Church can err. Nobody is called to behave that way. Quite the contrary, in fact.

I would caution, however, that not everything you see or every story you read is necessarily black and white. Before being appalled by something, just be sure you’ve got all the details, and every side of the story. Sometimes things seem scandalous which, if we had all the details, are actually not.

But other times, what we see is just what’s going on. And in those circumstances, it’s not at all wrong to point the finger and say: “Your Holiness, that’s wrong!” or “Father, that’s evil.”

Stay vigilant!
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Thank you and God bless friend. I’m glad to see that people realize I wasn’t looking for validation, but just explanations. I really appreciate you taking the time to write all of that, and to realize that I wasn’t just trying to be a ranting lunatic.
 
TommyWommy said:
Personally, I really struggled with similar questions for quite a while. In fact, I was away from Catholicism for about 20 years before my search finally led me back. Like Pregustator said, infalible doesn’t mean impeccable. Realizing that helped me a lot.

Recently I heard a priest talking about folks that stay away from Church because of “all the hypocrites.” He tells them, “Come on in! There’s room for one more!” 😃

I’ve also heard it said that if there was a “perfect” (impeccable) church, as soon as you walked in it would cease to be so. 😃

Don’t lose heart. Ultimately, we don’t put our faith in popes or bishops but in God.

Like Pregustator said, stay vigilant! We are to expect wolves among the sheep. And never leave Peter because of Judas. 🙂
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Thank you as well friend. 🙂
 
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