Sometimes lost in the Church

  • Thread starter Thread starter nr1985
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
N

nr1985

Guest
I have been really struggling lately in the Church with the abuses I see, the lack of reverence, the watered down teaching and what feels like betrayal from some bishops.

I am a revert; and have in the space of two years come to the ‘traditional’ end of the church; well, from my studies and research; I’d call it the authentic end. However the internet is a dangerous place, and it’s easy to come across dissenters, as I did this week.

It’s quite easy to despair, and fall out of the church entirely. I’m thinking of the sedevacantist position, for example. It did worry me- what if it’s true…?

But I realised while reading a sedevacantist forum; they themselves have a lot of dispute within as regards to who is validly ordained…which bishop ordained them…was he even validly ordained? To locate and belong to “The Church” is like finding a needle in a haystack.

The divine office this morning reads, from Jn 7:37; “If any man is thirsty, let him come to me and drink.”
Where is Jesus today? How do we find Him, in order to go to Him, and drink? If we thirst for the truth, where do we look?

He is united to the mystical body of the Church. Through the authentic magisterium, we fund truth. If the Church is not clearly recognizable in the world today, we;d have nowhere to turn but to ourselves and our own interpretations (which is counter to Christ’s establishment of a hierarchical teaching body); or to splinter, breakaway groups.

While there are problems in the Church today, I see this is a kind of purification. Not the mark of a false Church. Christ gave his power to the Church, and promised it would prevail.

When I see groups who, themselves, cannot identify, truly, the true Church, I can’t understand how Hell hasn’t prevailed - at least in these cases.

Thanks for reading. I just wanted to share a progression of thoughts which lead me out of a mire. It might be helpful to someone.

Please keep me in your prayers.
 
I think you will find a lot of people have the same thoughts.

One of the wonders of the Internet is that it allows a group which may be small in any given geographical area to connect with others of similar belief throughout the nation or world.

Thanks for posting.
 
I am also a revert.
While there are problems in the Church today, I see this is a kind of purification. Not the mark of a false Church. Christ gave his power to the Church, and promised it would prevail.
Click to expand...
I have seen the good, the bad and the profane. It makes you pray. Our Lady, Queen of Heaven wants us to pray.
 
nr1985 said:
I have been really struggling lately in the Church with the abuses I see, the lack of reverence, the watered down teaching and what feels like betrayal from some bishops.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately there are some poor Shepherds out there. I don’t even know the exact number of good ones vs bad ones, but, remember: we have really good ones as well, like Bishop Schneider and Cardinal Sarah!
nr1985 said:
I am a revert; and have in the space of two years come to the ‘traditional’ end of the church; well, from my studies and research; I’d call it the authentic end. However the internet is a dangerous place, and it’s easy to come across dissenters, as I did this week.

It’s quite easy to despair, and fall out of the church entirely. I’m thinking of the sedevacantist position, for example. It did worry me- what if it’s true…?
Click to expand...
I’ve engaged with one Sede before, and I tried to walk through his logic with him. I asked him how he would rectify the supposed problem? He said that a conference of bishops would probably be needed to elect a valid Pope. I then asked him if he had notified HIS bishop of our Catholic Church being supposedly leaderless. He claimed that this responsibility did not rest on the laity. At that point, I KNEW that I would never be a Sede (Thank God, they clearly lack the essential theological virtue of hope - despite all their knowledge of Canons, doctrines, and dogmas).
nr1985 said:
But I realised while reading a sedevacantist forum; they themselves have a lot of dispute within as regards to who is validly ordained…which bishop ordained them…was he even validly ordained? To locate and belong to “The Church” is like finding a needle in a haystack.
Click to expand...
Amen! Thank God we have the Pope.
nr1985 said:
Where is Jesus today?
Click to expand...
The Eucharist! The Catholic Church has the Eucharist! I think St. Padre Pio had a quote regarding this… Something like, Cling tightly to the Catholic Church, for She has the Eucharist. I’m paraphrasing, but a more knowledgeable Catholic will be able to quote it for you.
nr1985 said:
While there are problems in the Church today, I see this is a kind of purification. Not the mark of a false Church. Christ gave his power to the Church, and promised it would prevail.
Click to expand...
I interpret this as a contraction of the faithful. Does anybody see this similarly…?

God bless!
 
Unfortunately there are some poor Shepherds out there. I don’t even know the exact number of good ones vs bad ones, but, remember: we have really good ones as well, like Bishop Schneider and Cardinal Sarah!

Yes! Two fantastic bishops!

Quote:
Originally Posted by nr1985 View Post
While there are problems in the Church today, I see this is a kind of purification. Not the mark of a false Church. Christ gave his power to the Church, and promised it would prevail.
I interpret this as a contraction of the faithful. Does anybody see this similarly…?

…That’s what I meant, yes. People seem to be exiting in droves whereas faithful parishes are getting stronger.

Ratzinger wrote about this when he was still a priest … I can’t remember the book title but he mentions a much smaller church, but more faithful?
 
I know how you feel. I really really do.

The Church needs you as much as you need it. Truthfully. The answer is NOT to run off and desert her; the answer is to hold fast to the Faith and be faithful to it (cf: 2 Thess. 2:15), thus setting the example for others to follow.

God bless you.
 
Don’t gauge the Christian Faith in accordance with the behavior of Christians. Christ came to call sinners and Christianity is full of them. From the time of Saint Peter and Paul much of their writing and efforts were spent trying to keep wayward Christians in line and Christ himself often rebuked his followers and others for their hair brained ideas. That is the struggle we all face along the way, trying to bring our worldly attitudes and behaviors in line with Christ’s teachings. It is a life long struggle for us and the Church.

We don’t follow a religion because we’re holy, we follow it because were not! The Faith is perfect, the “faithful” are not. As the only part of God’s creation we are unique in that we are combination of body and spirit. We live in both worlds material and spiritual and there is a struggle in all of us between worldly things and heavenly or spiritual things. The only constant is truth and the Church is the pillar and bulwark of Truth on earth.

So you can expect on this site and in all Christian churches, to hear error and old-self notions being expressed but don’t let that discourage you from seeking truth. Christ warned us about this struggle and about wolves in the sheepfold. I ask God’s forgiveness for when my opinions have been a little wolfish and when I haven’t been a good light for others.
 
nr1985 said:
Ratzinger wrote about this when he was still a priest … I can’t remember the book title but he mentions a much smaller church, but more faithful?
Click to expand...
He used the term “simpler, more spiritual” in the article that Casilda linked to. I’ve heard that transmogrified to “smaller, purer” but to me that means just “smaller” because no matter where you put humans, be it in a big Church or a little one, human foibles will ensure that we drift away from the Gospel message. This has been happening since the Fall.

I can’t speak for your situation but only about my own experience as a revert. Whether we revert, or convert, we start out on fire for the faith, expecting all our questions to be answered, expecting black-and-white roadmap to heaven, and thinking that our faith will cure all of our own spiritual ills and sins through sheer force of the will by following the “rules”.

This was me 19 years ago.

I went through my own personal dark night of the soul where I realized that I was extremely naive. I still caved into the same temptations as before, still tried to mask them with ego, and realized that I wasn’t alone. Priests too, struggle with their faith. Being close to the monastic world, I have seen monks leave because of the same basic human foibles we all struggle with; I have seen monks once on fire with the faith succumb to acedia. I’ve seen them struggle within the monastery with the same petty jealousies and conflicts that we all have. I’ve actually come to love them more because of it, because they helped me understand as one of my favourite monks says, “the monastery is a hospital for sinners, not a resort for the righteous; I’m here because I am a poor Christian and without the monastery I could never become a good one”.

What I came to eventually realize is that nobody is responsible for my faith journey, and my conversatio morum (inner conversion, part of my oblate promise) but myself. We do have shepherds that help us on the journey. Some are more attentive than others. It’s my responsibility to seek out those who are attentive and helpful.

All these problems aren’t going to magically disappear. Being in the Church does not make one suddenly righteous. In fact there are many Catholics, including her clergy, that are very far from righteous.

The one thing that truly helped me was developing a regular prayer routine using the Liturgy of the Hours. It helped me learn that “it’s not all about me”. Moreover in that prayer we pray for the entire Church: those hurting, those joyful, those lost, those erring on the journey, the saints, the sinners, and of course my own miserable sinner’s soul.

If one approaches the Church looking for all the answers, humans will invariably let us down and we will end up sorely disappointed, as I was until I discovered the Benedictines. If one approaches the Church as a journey of conversion that we share with all her members regardless of where they are on the spectrum of righteousness and orthodoxy, then the Church becomes an effective means of growing spiritually through sacramental grace.

So don’t be discouraged. If you are in the same position I was, what I probably just said won’t have much impact. But if you are, your own “dark night of the soul” will be transformative and trust me will result in a much healthier spiritual journey where you put all your trust in Christ.
 
nr1985 said:
I have been really struggling lately in the Church with the abuses I see, the lack of reverence, the watered down teaching and what feels like betrayal from some bishops.

I am a revert; and have in the space of two years come to the ‘traditional’ end of the church; well, from my studies and research; I’d call it the authentic end. However the internet is a dangerous place, and it’s easy to come across dissenters, as I did this week.

It’s quite easy to despair, and fall out of the church entirely. I’m thinking of the sedevacantist position, for example. It did worry me- what if it’s true…?

But I realised while reading a sedevacantist forum; they themselves have a lot of dispute within as regards to who is validly ordained…which bishop ordained them…was he even validly ordained? To locate and belong to “The Church” is like finding a needle in a haystack.

The divine office this morning reads, from Jn 7:37; “If any man is thirsty, let him come to me and drink.”
Where is Jesus today? How do we find Him, in order to go to Him, and drink? If we thirst for the truth, where do we look?

He is united to the mystical body of the Church. Through the authentic magisterium, we fund truth. If the Church is not clearly recognizable in the world today, we;d have nowhere to turn but to ourselves and our own interpretations (which is counter to Christ’s establishment of a hierarchical teaching body); or to splinter, breakaway groups.

While there are problems in the Church today, I see this is a kind of purification. Not the mark of a false Church. Christ gave his power to the Church, and promised it would prevail.

When I see groups who, themselves, cannot identify, truly, the true Church, I can’t understand how Hell hasn’t prevailed - at least in these cases.

Thanks for reading. I just wanted to share a progression of thoughts which lead me out of a mire. It might be helpful to someone.

Please keep me in your prayers.
Click to expand...
I am a convert. I see many of the same problems but I also see so much more.

This is what I see: Ruth, 86 years old. Faithful to the Church. She took care of her husband who suffered with Alzheimer disease for 15 years. She has seen many members of her family die at young ages including her daughter and grand daughter. Always in Church. Always with a smile on her face.

I see: the Priest from Columbia. Far away from home struggling to speak better English. Obeying his superiors and loving us in spite of ourselves.

I see: the musicians. Although not perfect they are faithfulling doing their best every Sunday.

I see: the home bound ministers who faithfully visit the homebound each week bringing the Precious Body and Blood to the sick, the home bound and those in nursing homes.

I see: the deacon who visits those in prison and takes flack from our home grown complainers.

I see: the young parents doing their best to raise their children in a very hostile world.

I see Marilyn, Mary, Margaret and others feeding families who have lost their loved ones.

I see the Knights of Columbus working in the community.

I see: teachers working with children the youth of our Church

I see: leaders of Bible Study groups

I see: people arranging picnics and dinners to celebrate life in the Church

I see: Love, Struggles, Fears, Hopes, Life and Death

Most of all I see Christ.

So, I will ask this question. What do people see when they see you?
 
HelenRose said:
I am a convert. I see many of the same problems but I also see so much more.

This is what I see: Ruth, 86 years old. Faithful to the Church. She took care of her husband who suffered with Alzheimer disease for 15 years. She has seen many members of her family die at young ages including her daughter and grand daughter. Always in Church. Always with a smile on her face.

I see: the Priest from Columbia. Far away from home struggling to speak better English. Obeying his superiors and loving us in spite of ourselves.

I see: the musicians. Although not perfect they are faithfulling doing their best every Sunday.

I see: the home bound ministers who faithfully visit the homebound each week bringing the Precious Body and Blood to the sick, the home bound and those in nursing homes.

I see: the deacon who visits those in prison and takes flack from our home grown complainers.

I see: the young parents doing their best to raise their children in a very hostile world.

I see Marilyn, Mary, Margaret and others feeding families who have lost their loved ones.

I see the Knights of Columbus working in the community.

I see: teachers working with children the youth of our Church

I see: leaders of Bible Study groups

I see: people arranging picnics and dinners to celebrate life in the Church

I see: Love, Struggles, Fears, Hopes, Life and Death

Most of all I see Christ.

So, I will ask this question. What do people see when they see you?
Click to expand...
👍👍👍
 
Do they see a person that the Church survives in spite of or a person who is showing forth the love of Christ?
 
Polycarp1 said:
Don’t gauge the Christian Faith in accordance with the behavior of Christians. Christ came to call sinners and Christianity is full of them. From the time of Saint Peter and Paul much of their writing and efforts were spent trying to keep wayward Christians in line and Christ himself often rebuked his followers and others for their hair brained ideas. That is the struggle we all face along the way, trying to bring our worldly attitudes and behaviors in line with Christ’s teachings. It is a life long struggle for us and the Church.

We don’t follow a religion because we’re holy, we follow it because were not! The Faith is perfect, the “faithful” are not. As the only part of God’s creation we are unique in that we are combination of body and spirit. We live in both worlds material and spiritual and there is a struggle in all of us between worldly things and heavenly or spiritual things. The only constant is truth and the Church is the pillar and bulwark of Truth on earth.

So you can expect on this site and in all Christian churches, to hear error and old-self notions being expressed but don’t let that discourage you from seeking truth. Christ warned us about this struggle and about wolves in the sheepfold. I ask God’s forgiveness for when my opinions have been a little wolfish and when I haven’t been a good light for others.
Click to expand...
No error or hint of wolf there… thank you for the good advice.
 
Thanks for the link Casilda- and thank you for the insightful post Helen.

You make a good point.

Obviously all of these are very important and very good to behold.

We should probably mention though, that although Christ is present in these activities; he must be at the centre. What you describe could be seen in another faith community or even secular community with a few changes in wording.

We’re all about the truth and I think that was the point of my first post- we seem to have rot in many places and unfortunately those activities which you mention- they come out of that core which, sometimes (or often) has had rot set in.

I don’t mean to be pessimistic - but those wonderful things are all spokes coming out of a central point- which must be Truth. A lot of those spokes come undone when we put Truth in the middle unfortunately. E.g. I was reading about the Exodus of Catholics to the baptist church where much of what you describe is happening but where they obviously lack the fundemental Truths of the Faith. Some of the ‘hard sayings’) to quote the banner I’m looking at!)
 
" I am convinced that the crisis in the Church that we are experiencing today is to a large extent due to the disintegration of the liturgy, which at times has even come to be conceived of etsi Deus non daretur: in that it is a matter of indifference whether or not God exists and whether or not He speaks to us and hears us.

But when the community of faith, the world-wide unity of the Church and her history, and the mystery of the living Christ are no longer visible in the liturgy, where else, then, is the Church to become visible in her spiritual essence?

Then the community is celebrating only itself, an activity that is utterly fruitless. And, because the ecclesial community cannot have its origin from itself but emerges as a unity only from the Lord, through faith, such circumstances will inexorably result in a disintegration into sectarian parties of all kinds - partisan opposition within a Church tearing herself apart. This is why we need a new Liturgical Movement, which will call to life the real heritage of the Second Vatican Council. "
  • Cardinal Ratzinger, 1997
 
nr1985 said:
Thanks for the link Casilda- and thank you for the insightful post Helen.

You make a good point.

Obviously all of these are very important and very good to behold.

We should probably mention though, that although Christ is present in these activities; he must be at the centre. What you describe could be seen in another faith community or even secular community with a few changes in wording.

We’re all about the truth and I think that was the point of my first post- we seem to have rot in many places and unfortunately those activities which you mention- they come out of that core which, sometimes (or often) has had rot set in.

I don’t mean to be pessimistic - but those wonderful things are all spokes coming out of a central point- which must be Truth. A lot of those spokes come undone when we put Truth in the middle unfortunately. E.g. I was reading about the Exodus of Catholics to the baptist church where much of what you describe is happening but where they obviously lack the fundemental Truths of the Faith. Some of the ‘hard sayings’) to quote the banner I’m looking at!)
Click to expand...
If all these things I mentioned are not seen by the original poster and all that he sees is pessimistic, he will not be able to correct anything.

The way to bring back the beauty that has been lost is to present beauty as beautiful.

I am a convert from a very evangelistic background. I love music, I love Latin and I am a musician. When my husband and I first began using Latin on the first Sunday of each month, we got a lot of flack from a certain group in my Church. There were very few people who sang the Latin with my husband and I. But, we have nice voices, we are friendly, we did not force this on everyone every Sunday. We enjoyed what others had to offer. We did not engage in holier than thou and isn’t this terrible rhetoric. We just loved what we were doing.

With the exception of a few die-hards, everyone now loves the first Sunday of the Month. It is the “Special Mass” and you would be surprised how many people now sing with us.

Beauty brings out the beautiful but complaining, moaning and sulking does not.
 
HelenRose said:
I am a convert. I see many of the same problems but I also see so much more.

This is what I see: Ruth, 86 years old. Faithful to the Church. She took care of her husband who suffered with Alzheimer disease for 15 years. She has seen many members of her family die at young ages including her daughter and grand daughter. Always in Church. Always with a smile on her face.

I see: the Priest from Columbia. Far away from home struggling to speak better English. Obeying his superiors and loving us in spite of ourselves.

I see: the musicians. Although not perfect they are faithfulling doing their best every Sunday.

I see: the home bound ministers who faithfully visit the homebound each week bringing the Precious Body and Blood to the sick, the home bound and those in nursing homes.

I see: the deacon who visits those in prison and takes flack from our home grown complainers.

I see: the young parents doing their best to raise their children in a very hostile world.

I see Marilyn, Mary, Margaret and others feeding families who have lost their loved ones.

I see the Knights of Columbus working in the community.

I see: teachers working with children the youth of our Church

I see: leaders of Bible Study groups

I see: people arranging picnics and dinners to celebrate life in the Church

I see: Love, Struggles, Fears, Hopes, Life and Death

Most of all I see Christ.

So, I will ask this question. What do people see when they see you?
Click to expand...
:amen::clapping::yup::bounce:
 
I’m sorry I only read the first post. Where do you attend Mass? I go to the FSSP and other Latin Masses by priests in union with Rome, and its brought me a lot of peace. I don’t see the liberal side much and I don’t read too much online nowadays. I think sometimes its good to just retreat from all that and just concentrate on our spiritual life. These parishes and less internet have helped me to do that. If you don’t have access to the Latin Mass, a more conservative Novus Ordo would be better than a more liberal one.
 
nr1985 said:
I have been really struggling lately in the Church with the abuses I see, the lack of reverence, the watered down teaching and what feels like betrayal from some bishops.
Click to expand...
I see that and I suffer from PTSD. With PTSD, I have “triggers” which make me angry, sometimes on the inside and sometimes it creeps out.

I am bothered by the people who talk out loud before Mass and during Mass, making it hard for me to pray. People are chatting in the local adoration chapel, where it is specifically posted to not talk ! I spoke to the lady in charge and she told me it is very quiet from 1 a.m. to 5 a.m. (“right” I think to myself – I am the problem.)

I waste time and gas driving there only to find that the chapel has been overtaken by people who don’t want to follow the rules for respecting others.

Aside from being ordinarily upset about these abuses, my PTSD makes me confrontational. That was the last time I went to Mass, about 3 months ago. (I have a letter from my bishop saying I don’t have to confess if I can’t attend Mass – well, how do I know until I go there and see what’s happening?) Then, when I go there, and see what I find, I get push back from other people who quickly conclude that it’s my problem. They have no awareness of Canon 1205 which deals with appropriate conduct in ‘sacred places.’ I am “right” but I lose the battle.

It’s like in the book of Judges, every man does pretty much what he wants to. There’s mostly retired people at the two churches in my parish, and age/death will empty the pews in time. I would think the older people would have more respect but it isn’t so.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top