Somome please help me,i have been asked a question and do not know how to asnwer!?

  • Thread starter Thread starter godsent
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Huh?

Are you going to continue to maintain that the Jews are
“shattered” by the foreshadowings?
How about the article I referrenced?
aish.com/rabbi/ATR_brows…f=tqak&offset=2

I’ll bet I could take Dostoyevsky’s The Brothers Karmozov
and find “foreshadowings” of an event that took place
2000 years* earlier*!

When an individual looks for something specific, that
individual usually finds something to employ as a
“parallel.” IMHO
What of those specifics about Messiah that are not
found?
aish.com/rabbi/ATR_brows…f=tqak&offset=2
Not foreshadowings, specifics?

And how about a definition of “assertion”, please?

Thanks,
reen12
 
What you see here, reen, are only a teeny, teeny tiny portion of the foreshadowings. Some of the foreshadowings are so strong, they are like a fist in the face. E.g. Absalom “King of Peace”] with his hair tangled in branches “crown of thorns”] as he hangs from a tree “Christ hanging from the cross”] after he rides to his death on a mule “Christ riding an *** to his death in Jerusalem at the time of his messianic entry”] is stabbed in the side by a soldier as he hangs from the tree “Christ stabbed on the cross by a soldier as he hangs from the cross”] and is then buried under rock “Christ buried in a cave”]. See 2 Samuel 18:9 et seq.

My in-laws are all Jewish. Believe me, they can’t even begin to listen to this kind of analysis. The concept, that these Christians who have been abusing and murdering them for 1,700 years might be the new “Jews,” seems philosophically impossible – it is just too, too much.
 
Hi, BibleReader,

Oh, I think I get it. Are you saying that the Church is the
new Israel?

Best,
reen12
 
40.png
reen12:
quote:BibleReader

Not “shattering”- rather*, “unconvincing.”*

As to the assertion of a “fact” - that is your belief, stated
as a “fact.” It may even be true. Still, it is a matter of
faith.
“Blessed are they who have not seen, yet believed.”

A Christian can provide the basis of his/her assertion,
as evidence of “fact”, but the hearer has to come to
see this evidence as true…which is* faith*, [accepting
an event and words spoken, 2000 years ago.]

If it were a fact, in the way that the circumference of the
equator is a “fact”, there’d be no need for faith.

In my experience, it is more credible to say:
“My belief is…” or “Our belief is…” and then live
in such a way, as to make those beliefs credible
to those around us.

The thing I am in sympathy with, in terms of Judaism,
is that it is* not* a prosyletizing faith. It draws people
to God by it’s way of life and it’s sense of the sacred.

Judaism will continue to say:
“Hear, O Israel…” whether I believe God to be a “fact”
or not. I think it is their disinterest in “convincing” me
of the “truth” of their faith, that makes that faith so
believable to me.

Christians, on the other hand, have been commanded to
“Go into the whole word, and preach the Good News.”

quote**:BibleReader**

The difficulty is, I do know what you are talking about,
and I disagree with your position entirely.
Will you please provide me with your definition of the
word “assertion.”?

Many thanks,
reen12
Click to expand...
Hi reen,

Yes, the LORD describes Himself as One, yet in Genesis he says “Let us make man in our image”. Who is the “us” and the “our” referring to if the LORD is not One divine being in three co-eternal persons (or are you calling God a liar)? The Trinity maintains that the Christ and the Holy Spirit existed together with the Father since before the beginning of time and in this sense are truly one. I hope you are not implying that Christianity is a polytheistic religion? Also, in the OT, God Himself says He will offer HIMSELF as lamb offering. Christ is the begotten co-eternal son of God the Father and the Holy Spirit proceeds (not created) from the Father and the Son. It is 1x1x1, not 1+1+1 🙂
 
A Jew will tell you that refers to angels. The arguements are decently good.

I don’t say “arguements” in a non-Christian way. I mean it in the sense of the way Jews interpreted the passage before Christ was born ( and obviously still do today).
 
40.png
Lazerlike42:
A Jew will tell you that refers to angels. The arguements are decently good.

I don’t say “arguements” in a non-Christian way. I mean it in the sense of the way Jews interpreted the passage before Christ was born ( and obviously still do today).
Click to expand...
Only God is the Creator though, no? So now the angels had to help God create humans?
 
To both a Jew and a Christian, yes.

Compare to Genesis 11 where God says “Let us go down” and confuse their speach. This has always been taken by Christians and Jews to mean God was going down with angels.
 
40.png
Lazerlike42:
To both a Jew and a Christian, yes.

Compare to Genesis 11 where God says “Let us go down” and confuse their speach. This has always been taken by Christians and Jews to mean God was going down with angels.
Click to expand...
You can’t refute the one where God Himself states He will offer Himself as a lamb offering. In OT times, Jews would definitely interpret this as a sacrificial offering. Or where the Messiah will be called the “Mighty God”, “Everlasting Father” and “Wonderful Counselor”, etc.
 
Semper Fi:
You can’t refute the one where God Himself states He will offer Himself as a lamb offering. In OT times, Jews would definitely interpret this as a sacrificial offering. Or where the Messiah will be called the “Mighty God”, “Everlasting Father” and “Wonderful Counselor”, etc.
Click to expand...
lol ohhh they have a way to refute everything. Not all of them are convincing, but they try.
 
Isaiah 53 is powerful stuff:

Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
 
40.png
reen12:
Hi, BibleReader,

Oh, I think I get it. Are you saying that the Church is the
new Israel?

Best,
reen12
Click to expand...
Yes, and we, in the Church are, individually, the current Jews, as God intends them.

I have to add, however, that I heard that Ratzinger, I think, was behind a statement by the Vatican, a few years ago, to the effect that because God never revokes a covenant, the Old Covenant – and therefore Judaism – are still valid.

I have to add to that position, however, that, properly understood, Judaism is thoroughly pre-Christian. As I infer above, even the very structure of the rituals and stories of Judaism say, "Christ, Christ, CHRIST, CHRIST!"
 
40.png
BibleReader:
Yes, and we, in the Church are, individually, the current Jews, as God intends them.

I have to add, however, that I heard that Ratzinger, I think, was behind a statement by the Vatican, a few years ago, to the effect that because God never revokes a covenant, the Old Covenant – and therefore Judaism – are still valid.

I have to add to that position, however, that, properly understood, Judaism is thoroughly pre-Christian. As I infer above, even the very structure of the rituals and stories of Judaism say, "Christ, Christ, CHRIST, CHRIST!"
Click to expand...
We are not the “new” Israel - Israel never ceased to exist. The Catholic Church is the fulfillment.
 
Semper Fi:
Isaiah 53 is powerful stuff:

Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
Click to expand...
you’re right, but Jews argue that this chapter refers to the nation of Israel, not Jesus.

Also, they will say that Psalm 22:16, which says,

“Psa 22:16 For dogs have surrounded me; a gang of evildoers has closed in on me; they pierced my hands and my feet.”

Actually says, “For dogs have surrounded me; a gang of evildoers has closed in on me; like a lion, my hands and feet.”

See here: christian-thinktank.com/ps22cheat.html

and here: christian-thinktank.com/bad53.html
 
40.png
Lazerlike42:
you’re right, but Jews argue that this chapter refers to the nation of Israel, not Jesus.

Also, they will say that Psalm 22:16, which says,

“Psa 22:16 For dogs have surrounded me; a gang of evildoers has closed in on me; they pierced my hands and my feet.”

Actually says, “For dogs have surrounded me; a gang of evildoers has closed in on me; like a lion, my hands and feet.”

See here: christian-thinktank.com/ps22cheat.html

and here: christian-thinktank.com/bad53.html
Click to expand...
So now Israel is the Savior and not God? From reading Sacred Scriptures, I always thought that only God could heal, bare sin, justify many, etc. (Not arguing with you personally, just coming up with another Christian perspective to make the convo interesting).
 
Hi, SemperFi,

Are you familiar with the royal “we…”
As in, “We [king or queen] think it good for the nation…”
Yes, the LORD describes Himself as One, yet in Genesis he says “Let us make man in our image”. Who is the “us” and the “our” referring to if the LORD is not One divine being in three co-eternal persons (or are you calling God a liar)?
Click to expand...
Judaism wrote Genesis, for heaven’s sake!
Are you suggesting that it took 3500 years for Israel
to recognize the words “us” and “our”.?
As in:
"Say, fellows, it’s 800 B.C. Isn’t it time we investigated
why Genesis says “us” and “our”?’
This, in a faith that says 2 or 3 times daily:
Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One ?

The “…(or are you calling God a liar)?” approach, is
one of the reasons Judaism stands out in dignity
for me.
Judaism calls people to the One God by example.
It does not prosyletize.

If “defending” Christianity’s view of 3 Persons in One God
requires asking a person “…[or are you calling God a liar?]…”
I want no part of it.

Please give thought to the imperial, or regal “we.”
The Holy Father uses it all the time.

reen12
 
40.png
reen12:
Hi, SemperFi,

Are you familiar with the royal “we…”
As in, “We [king or queen] think it good for the nation…”

Judaism wrote Genesis, for heaven’s sake!
Are you suggesting that it took 3500 years for Israel
to recognize the words “us” and “our”.?
As in:
"Say, fellows, it’s 800 B.C. Isn’t it time we investigated
why Genesis says “us” and “our”?’
This, in a faith that says 2 or 3 times daily:
Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One ?

The “…(or are you calling God a liar)?” approach, is
one of the reasons Judaism stands out in dignity
for me.
Judaism calls people to the One God by example.
It does not prosyletize.

If “defending” Christianity’s view of 3 Persons in One God
requires asking a person “…[or are you calling God a liar?]…”
I want no part of it.

Please give thought to the imperial, or regal “we.”
The Holy Father uses it all the time.

reen12
Click to expand...
reen,

Perhaps I was being a little bit overzealous in my approach and I do apologize. But being an ex-Catholic, you should know that Catholicism is NOT polytheistic. You never answered any of my other questions about Isaiah, btw. 🙂

God Bless

P.S. I am technically an Ashkenazi Jew (according to a local Orthodox Jewish rabbi) as my mother’s mother’s mother was a Jew who converted to Catholicism.
 
40.png
Lazerlike42:
Isaiah? Where? Are they in another thread?
Click to expand...
Isaiah 53, wonderful counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Immanuel (God with us), etc. (too many to count) 😉
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top