"Son of God" means "Servant of God" !

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Cyber Knight:
Good points GW!

Rodrigo is having thread Parallelism… maybe Justice2006 would like to have discussion one on one with Rodrigo regarding Bible’s corruption! 👍

Anyone agree please say your voice here
Thanks Cyber Knight! I doubt he will join Rodrigo’s thread. He won’t even answer questions directed to him on this thread. :rolleyes:
 
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Justice2006:
So, Jesus was a Servant too. Then:
  • He was Servant to who?
  • Was he not Himself God, according to your view? If yes,
  • Then was Jesus (God) Serving to himself? If so, then:
  • What kind of Serving is this? Self-Serving? Self-Worshipping?.
“Self” refers to personhood. While Jesus possessed the one nature of God, he was a distinct Person from the Father.

So he was a servant to the Father, in doing the Father’s will, which coincided with his own (human) will. (His divine will is identical to the Father’s.) And also a servant to all, in laying down his life for us.

As St. Paul says, though he was in the form of God, he made himself a slave to all.
 
George Waters:
Neither Bible mentions the “Son of God” so what is your accretion that “Son of God” means “Servant of God” based on? Wishful thinking? How about this one from Acts 3:26; “Servant does not mean veterinarian!!!”? :rolleyes:

Islamic apologetics have been so disappointing lately haven’t they?
:rotfl: :rotfl: I know its not a laughing matter but you are so right:
Islamic apologetics have been so disappointing lately haven’t they?
I am kind of losing interest coming here, I havnt seen decent muslim apologetic, where is Faith101, Hashi Al-Eritre and the like, they at least made sense!
 
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Myangel:
I am kind of losing interest coming here, I havnt seen decent muslim apologetic, where is Faith101, Hashi Al-Eritre and the like, they at least made sense!
Come on Angel, its fun to see J2006 jumping around the forums without even able to refute what people have posted. 😃
 
Cyber Knight:
Come on Angel, its fun to see J2006 jumping around the forums without even able to refute what people have posted. 😃
Sometimes its like :whacky: and then :bigyikes: :banghead:

Changing the subject is annoying :mad: rather than answering and giving us sensible responses he goes on to to something new, anti catholicism is not welcome here :tsktsk: however if you are willing, Justice2006 to be open minded and have an understanding of our faith you are more than welcome here along with your muslim brothers and sisters who have been nothing but a pleasure to post with 👍 We are not trying to convert you, only trying to help you understand what we believe. Why dont you do the same. :confused:
 
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Myangel:
Sometimes its like :whacky: and then :bigyikes: :banghead:

Changing the subject is annoying :mad: rather than answering and giving us sensible responses he goes on to to something new, anti catholicism is not welcome here :tsktsk: however if you are willing, Justice2006 to be open minded and have an understanding of our faith you are more than welcome here along with your muslim brothers and sisters who have been nothing but a pleasure to post with 👍 We are not trying to convert you, only trying to help you understand what we believe. Why dont you do the same. :confused:
same here…at least Joseph tries …but Justice still has a long way coz he doesnt know basic things…not that it’s very easy to grasp some doctrines when you come from a muslim background, but step by step if he wants too…i lost interest as well.
 
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inJESUS:
same here…at least Joseph tries …but Justice still has a long way coz he doesnt know basic things…not that it’s very easy to grasp some doctrines when you come from a muslim background, but step by step if he wants too…i lost interest as well.
Well, Mr. inJESUS, your catholic Bible doesn’t even contain full deposit of your Christian faith nor it contian full accounts of what in fact Jesus preached nor it is reliable because all of your so called *ancient * and most ancient manuscripts of Hebrew/Greek are works of later authors. Most of them are still UNKNOWN to your Bibles scholars and Catholic magesterium, let alone ordinary people like you.

What you are asking me to know about your faith is not the teachings of Jesus but what those books say about Jesus whose authors are still UNKNOWN.

If you have a Gospel titiled “Gospel of Jesus” then I would be interested in reading it and accepting it after verifying it.

St.Matthew did not write the Gospel attributed to his name. Who ever wrote Gospel According to St. Matthew, has used “Gospel Acording to St. Mark”.

Your Catholic The New American Bible informs you that:

**The position of the Gospel according to Matthew as the first of the four gospels in the New Testament reflects both the view that it was the first to be written, a view that goes back to the late second century A.D., and the esteem in which it was held by the church; no other was so frequently quoted in the noncanonical literature of earliest Christianity.

"The questions of authorship, sources, and the time of composition of this gospel have received many answers, none of which can claim more than a greater or lesser degree of probability. The one now favored by the majority of scholars is the following:

The ancient tradition that the author was the disciple and apostle of Jesus named Matthew (see Matthew 10:3) is untenable because the gospel is based, in large part, on the Gospel according to Mark (almost all the verses of that gospel have been utilized in this), and it is hardly likely that a companion of Jesus would have followed so extensively an account that came from one who admittedly never had such an association rather than rely on his own memories. The attribution of the gospel to the disciple Matthew may have been due to his having been responsible for some of the traditions found in it, but that is far from certain.

The unknown author, whom we shall continue to call Matthew for the sake of convenience, drew not only upon the Gospel according to Mark but upon a large body of material (principally, sayings of Jesus) not found in Mark that corresponds, sometimes exactly, to material found also in the Gospel according to Luke.

This material, called “Q” (probably from the first letter of the German word Quelle, meaning “source”), represents traditions, written and oral, used by both Matthew and Luke.
Mark and Q are sources common to the two other synoptic gospels; hence the name the “Two-Source Theory” given to this explanation of the relation among the synoptics.

In addition to what Matthew drew from Mark and Q, his gospel contains material that is found only there. This is often designated “M,” written or oral tradition that was available to the author.

Since Mark was written shortly before or shortly after A.D. 70 (see Introduction to Mark), Matthew was composed certainly after that date, which marks the fall of Jerusalem to the Romans at the time of the First Jewish Revolt (A.D. 66-70), and probably at least a decade later since Matthew’s use of Mark presupposes a wide diffusion of that gospel. The post-A.D. 70 date is confirmed within the text by Matthew 22:7, which refers to the destruction of Jerusalem.

As for the place where the gospel was composed, a plausible suggestion is that it was Antioch, the capital of the Roman province of Syria. That large and important city had a mixed population of Greek-speaking Gentiles and Jews. **
[usccb.org/nab/bible/matthew/intro.htm]](http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/matthew/intro.htm])

Then as to the so-called “Gospel According to St. Mark”, Catholic’s the **New American Bible ** says:…

cont.

.
 
(contd. from top post…)

Then as to the so-called “Gospel According to St. Mark”, Catholic’s the **New American Bible ** says:

Although the book is anonymous, apart from the ancient heading “According to Mark” in manuscripts, it has traditionally been assigned to John Mark, in whose mother’s house (at Jerusalem) Christians assembled (Acts 12:12).
. . . .
**Traditionally, the gospel is said to have been written shortly before A.D. 70 in Rome, at a time of impending persecution and when destruction loomed over Jerusalem. …

Modern research often proposes as the author an unknown Hellenistic Jewish Christian, possibly in Syria, and perhaps shortly after the year 70.**

[usccb.org/nab/bible/mark/intro.htm]](http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/mark/intro.htm])

And as for St.Luke, he himself tells us in the beginning of his Gospel that he was just gathering/collecting what he heard about Jesus and not what he actually saw. Again Catholic’s the New American Bible says:

The prologue of the gospel [of St. Luke] makes it clear that Luke is not part of the first generation of Christian disciples but is himself dependent upon the traditions he received from those who were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word (Luke 1:2)

[usccb.org/nab/bible/luke/intro.htm]](http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/luke/intro.htm])

And finally as far the “Gospel According to Saint John”, it is quite different in character from the three above synoptic gospels. It does not follow the same order or reproduce the same stories as the synoptic gospels. To a much greater degree, it is the product of a developed theological reflection and grows out of a different circle and tradition. It was probably written in the 90s of the first century. And according to your The New American Bible:

**Critical analysis makes it difficult to accept the idea that the gospel [of St. John] as it now stands was written by one person.

John 21 seems to have been added after the gospel was completed; it exhibits a Greek style somewhat different from that of the rest of the work.

The prologue (John 1:1-18) apparently contains an independent hymn, subsequently adapted to serve as a preface to the gospel.

Within the gospel itself there are also some inconsistencies, e.g., there are two endings of Jesus’ discourse in the upper room (John 14:31; 18:1). To solve these problems, scholars have proposed various rearrangements that would produce a smoother order. However, most have come to the conclusion that the inconsistencies were probably produced by subsequent editing in which homogeneous materials were added to a shorter original.

Other difficulties for any theory of eyewitness authorship of the gospel in its present form are presented by its highly developed theology and by certain elements of its literary style.

"The gospel contains many details about Jesus not found in the synoptic gospels, e.g., that Jesus engaged in a baptizing ministry (John 3:22) before he changed to one of preaching and signs; that Jesus’ public ministry lasted for several years (see the note on John 2:13); that he traveled to Jerusalem for various festivals and met serious opposition long before his death (John 2:14-25; 5; 7-8); and that he was put to death on the day before Passover (John l8:28). These events are not always in chronological order because of the development and editing that took place. However, the accuracy of much of the detail of the fourth gospel constitutes a strong argument that the Johannine tradition rests upon the testimony of an eyewitness. Although tradition identified this person as John, the son of Zebedee, most modern scholars find that the evidence does not support this.**
[usccb.org/nab/bible/john/intro.htm]](http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/john/intro.htm])

So, Mr. inJESUS, all these what your own **Catholic Bible ** is telling **you ** and you actually have no idea who and what you are following and on whose ideas your faith is based.

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Why are you quoting the introductory notes to the NAB? Nobody claims that they are inspired. Not that it has any bearing on anything, but the theory of Q is not part of Catholic doctrine, nor is the idea that Mark was written first. Many Catholics disagree with both of those ideas. Apparently the whole notion of biblical textual or historical analysis seems foreign to you. Personally, I would like to see a lot more in the way of historical and textual analysis of the Quran, but apparently it’s not allowed.
 
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Justice2006:
So, Jesus was a Servant too. Then:
  • He was Servant to who?
  • Was he not Himself God, according to your view? If yes,
  • Then was Jesus (God) Serving to himself? If so, then:
  • What kind of Serving is this? Self-Serving? Self-Worshipping?
.
Being the Son of God and a servant is not incongruous. In fact, if God is all-loving, I would expect him to have a proclivity to serve and that is what was manifested perfectly in Jesus and His ultimate sacrifice. Also, look at one of the all-time greatest acts of humility in the Gospel of John. While having already demonstrated He was the Son of God, Jesus washed His disciples’ feet before His Passion began. The message was His love was real and that if Almighty God can serve us, so shall we serve one another. Then He gave us a new commandment: love one another. As He has loved us, so should we love one another. This is how all will know we are His disciples, if we have love for one another.

You need to think more deeply about God’s love and how He could best demonstrate it. We cannot think at God’s level but the servitude of Jesus set us all an example, forever. A good parent will love and lead his children by “serving” them unconditionally. Since we are all God’s children, shall we not expect at least the same from God? Remember that leadership is fundamentally about servitude. If we follow Jesus we can be leaders, and servants, of men.

Dominus tecum
 
Dear srp643,

I am not arguing whether Jesus was indeed a servant (with small “s”) or not.

My question is whether the Greek word ‘pias’ of the so-called “original” Greek manuscripts of the New Testament, means “Son” or “a servant”?

Why this word (“pias”) is mentioned in totally TWO different meanings in the Catholic Bibles alone?

What instigate the official Catholic translators of the New American Bible to change their own previous word “Son” to "a servant when translating Act 3:26?

Acts 3:26 - From Catholic’s Douay Rheims Bible
**To you first God, raising up his Son, hath sent him to bless you; that every one may convert himself from his wickedness. **
[Douay-Rheims Bible, Genesis Chapter 1]](Douay-Rheims Bible, Genesis Chapter 1])

Acts 3:26 - From Catholic’s The New American Bible
**…For you first, God raised up his servant and sent him to bless you by turning each of you from your evil ways." **

[usccb.org/nab/bible/acts/acts3.htm]](http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/acts/acts3.htm])
 
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Justice2006:
Dear srp643,

I am not arguing whether Jesus was indeed a servant (with small “s”) or not.

My question is whether the Greek word ‘pias’ of the so-called “original” Greek manuscripts of the New Testament, means “Son” or “a servant”?

Why this word (“pias”) is mentioned in totally TWO different meanings in the Catholic Bibles alone?

What instigate the official Catholic translators of the New American Bible to change their own previous word “Son” to "a servant when translating Act 3:26?

Acts 3:26 - From Catholic’s Douay Rheims Bible
To you first God, raising up his Son, hath sent him to bless you; that every one may convert himself from his wickedness.
[Douay-Rheims Bible, Genesis Chapter 1]](Douay-Rheims Bible, Genesis Chapter 1])

Acts 3:26 - From Catholic’s The New American Bible
…For you first, God raised up his servant and sent him to bless you by turning each of you from your evil ways."

[usccb.org/nab/bible/acts/acts3.htm]](http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/acts/acts3.htm])
Justice, stop barking up the wrong tree, you’ve been TOLD in earlier posts that the Greek word PIAS has two meanings, son and servant. If my son washes my clothes for me he is acting as my servant AS WELL AS being my son! If he washes someone else’s clothes for them he is still both a servant and my son! Can you not comprehend the simple fact that a word can have two meanings which can BOTH be true?

Example: If I use the Greek word XENOS (sorry I don’t know the Greek characters for it) it means both ‘guest’ and ‘foreigner’. If I call a particular person ‘XENOS’ it means that they are BOTH a guest in my house AND also from a foreign country.

Justice, have you had any sort of education about language or literature at all? If you have you should fire your teachers.
 
Justice2006 said:
Well, Mr. inJESUS, your catholic Bible doesn’t even contain full deposit of your Christian faith
nor it contian full accounts of what in fact Jesus preached surprised? John himself said this.i already wrote to you that what we have in our hands is not a Bible that the apostles intented to write for Christians, that is, they did not decide to write a complete gospel…what we have are their letters to friends and christians at their time.

As to the rest of your quote, if we don’t have the correct Bible then your allah is a liar.
 
Justice thinks that the Bible is the word of God in the same way as quran…that is, written by God…this concept doesnt exist to Christians…Jesus WAS NOT given the gospel as mr. mohammad claimed …God said He preserves his teachings and allah as well…we believe in God who fulfills his promises…if you dont then suit yourselves…yes Justice has a clear lack of history of the Bible…he doesnt know that we have absolutly no problem with the lenghthy posts he makes because he simply does not get what is the Bible. And this same Bible is the reason we have too many saints who are doing miracles in Jesus’ name…i have yet to see a miracle by a"muslim" saint (it doesnt exist) or in the name of mohammad…if people are doing miracles in Jesus’ name ( considering him only a prophet) then why not in mohammads name as well? is God a discriminator?

Justice, do you know arabic?

and please check the thread Moses’ law verses Mohammads law and comment on it .its in page 2 i think.No muslim has so far.
 
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inJESUS:
And this same Bible is the reason we have too many saints who are doing miracles in Jesus’ name…i have yet to see a miracle by a"muslim" saint (it doesnt exist) or in the name of mohammad…if people are doing miracles in Jesus’ name ( considering him only a prophet) then why not in mohammads name as well?
Mr. inJESUS,

When you failed to refute/confront issues intellectually, you start talking about “miracles”. 😉 This is strawman strategy. But unfortunately it doesn’t work.

How about hiring all those “miraculous” Saints, as Medical Doctors, Dentists, Surgeons, Gynachologists etc. instead of hiring highly qualified medical doctors from overseas such as India, Pakistan, China , Bangladesh etc.?

Tell your Catholic friends not to waste their valuable time and effortand money in studying medicine and even in Engineering but just go to the Catholic Saints and learn some “tricks” how to do miracles.

West can save lot of money and you don’t have to pay high salaries to those mirculous Saints or they should work for free for the Love of God. BTW, why do they need money anyway? they should be able to produce money through their miracles. No? They can fill the pockets of poor/needy people with their miracle generated money. What do you think inJESUS?

.
 
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Justice2006:
Mr. inJESUS,

When you failed to refute/confront issues intellectually, you start talking about “miracles”. 😉 This is strawman strategy. But unfortunately it doesn’t work.

How about hiring all those “miraculous” Saints, as Medical Doctors, Dentists, Surgeons, Gynachologists etc. instead of hiring highly qualified medical doctors from overseas such as India, Pakistan, China , Bangladesh etc.?

Tell your Catholic friends not to waste their valuable time and effortand money in studying medicine and even in Engineering but just go to the Catholic Saints and learn some “tricks” how to do miracles.

West can save lot of money and you don’t have to pay high salaries to those mirculous Saints or they should work for free for the Love of God. BTW, why do they need money anyway? they should be able to produce money through their miracles. No? They can fill the pockets of poor/needy people with their miracle generated money. What do you think inJESUS?

.
And what of the “miracles” of Mohammed we hear so much about on this forum? Cheap parlor tricks and stories to give him the credibility he lacked and to make up for the fact that he admitted to reciting the words of Satan as God’s? It is odd that Mohammed was duped by Satan, unlike Abraham, Moses and Jesus, but is considered “the greatest”. :rolleyes:

What do you think Justice2006?
 
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inJESUS:
As to the rest of your quote, if we don’t have the correct Bible then your allah is a liar.
Mr. inJESUS, before you call allah, a liar, lets see if you are a liar or not. Consider this:

20 ** If anyone** says, “I love God,” but hates his brother, he is a liar; for whoever does not love a brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen.
-----(1 John 4: 20)

See Mr. inJESUS! God cannot be seen by anyone. Man is given free will to love or hate his brother and if he choose to hate then it means he actually doesn’t love God. And the reason he doesn’t love/respect God because he chose not to love his brother by ignoring God’s commandments then if he claim that he does love God, he is a liar because how can he love God, who is invisible and cannot be seen by man when he chose to hate his brother who he can see?

This an another proof from your own scriptures that Jesus was not God.

.
 
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Justice2006:
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inJESUS:
Mr. inJESUS, before you call allah, a liar, lets see if you are a liar or not. Consider this:

20 If anyone
says, “I love God,” but hates his brother, he is a liar; for whoever does not love a brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen.

-----(1 John 4: 20)

See Mr. inJESUS! God cannot be seen by anyone. Man is given free will to love or hate his brother and if he choose to hate then it means he actually doesn’t love God. And the reason he doesn’t love/respect God because he chose not to love his brother by ignoring God’s commandments then if he claim that he does love God, he is a liar because how can he love God, who is invisible and cannot be seen by man when he chose to hate his brother who he can see?

That is your opinion since you think that you know more about God than he knows about himself.
This an another proof from your own scriptures that Jesus was not God.
There is no worse blindness than that of those who do not want to see or no worse deafness than that of those who do not want to hear.

These are just more of your cheap shots, because deep down you know that you don’t have any proof of the validity of your beliefs!
 
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Justice2006:
. What do you think inJESUS?

.
i think that you are a muslim who unfortunatly does not know what a miracle is, just like mohammad, and who links miracles to wordly things…the miracles i was refering to are not only miracles of healing ( which need faith if you didn’t know), but spiritual miracles, life-changing miracles, apparitions and so on…and my point stands: neither mohammad nor his followers did any miracles, unlike Jesus and the ones who believe in Him…or Jesus and muslims when they ask in HIS name.
 
Justice2006 said:
Mr. inJESUS, before you call allah, a liar, lets see if you are a liar or not. Consider this:
20 ** If anyone**

says, “I love God,” but hates his brother, he is a liar; for whoever does not love a brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen.
-----(1 John 4: 20)

See Mr. inJESUS! God cannot be seen by anyone. Man is given free will to love or hate his brother and if he choose to hate then it means he actually doesn’t love God. And the reason he doesn’t love/respect God because he chose not to love his brother by ignoring God’s commandments then if he claim that he does love God, he is a liar because how can he love God, who is invisible and cannot be seen by man when he chose to hate his brother who he can see? yes i know this perfectly…what is your point? i was talking about allah, not you…you i love you…Islam no…if you consider that islam= you, then am sorry, it does not work that way…Jesus DID NOT say : Love false teachings but love your brothers…you are my brother so i love you and respect you as a person, but it DOES NOT mean i have to respect false teachings. John himself called mohammad a liar, and since mohammad claims to come from his allah, then allah as well is a liar. When i say allah, i don’t mean the same allah that arab-Christians believe in, but mohammad’s invention or ego.

My point still stands btw.
This an another proof from your own scriptures that Jesus was not God.
sure if you still don’t understand that God the Father is invisible but God the Son is the one who took a human body.
 
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