Son of God, Son of Man. Modes of Presence?

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Linusthe2nd

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We know that each Person of the Trinity created the universe and guided it. We all know that the Trinity dwells in us and in all things. But how is this to be understood since the coming of Christ?

Christ was the Man-God, he had and still has a physical body. It is his body we receive in Communion and which we adore in the Eucharist, which sits at the right hand of the Father at this very moment.

So when we say God is now present in all things, do we mean the Trinity, as it was before the Coming of Christ? Are we talking about the spiritual Presence of the Second Person strictly? Or are we now to understand that it is Jesus the Man-God, the physical Christ, who is Present in all things. This latter idea seems incorrect to me. I think it is the Second Person ( not Jesus Christ ) who is present in all things, along with the other two Persons.

I think Jesus’ mode of Presence is limited to the Eucharist and at the right hand of the Father. He can of course appear on earth to this person or that and has done so - and this must be understood as a physical Presence.

But I think The Second Person is also Present in the world and in the bosom of the Father as He has always been, as God, a Pure Spirit. And at the same time, He is Present as the Second Person in Jesus Christ.

What do you think? Should get lots of discussion on this.

Linus2ndj
 
Linusthe2nd said:
We know that each Person of the Trinity created the universe and guided it. We all know that the Trinity dwells in us and in all things. But how is this to be understood since the coming of Christ?

Christ was the Man-God, he had and still has a physical body. It is his body we receive in Communion and which we adore in the Eucharist, which sits at the right hand of the Father at this very moment.

So when we say God is now present in all things, do we mean the Trinity, as it was before the Coming of Christ? Are we talking about the spiritual Presence of the Second Person strictly? Or are we now to understand that it is Jesus the Man-God, the physical Christ, who is Present in all things. This latter idea seems incorrect to me. I think it is the Second Person ( not Jesus Christ ) who is present in all things, along with the other two Persons.

I think Jesus’ mode of Presence is limited to the Eucharist and at the right hand of the Father. He can of course appear on earth to this person or that and has done so - and this must be understood as a physical Presence.

But I think The Second Person is also Present in the world and in the bosom of the Father as He has always been, as God, a Pure Spirit. And at the same time, He is Present as the Second Person in Jesus Christ.

What do you think? Should get lots of discussion on this.

Linus2ndj
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I think it is the Second Person ( not Jesus Christ ) who is present in all things, along with the other two Persons.

The son is the second person, so that would be Jesus Christ?
 
I don’t think that we as Catholics believe that God dwells in all things in the sense that He is part of the created order…that would be pantheism. God is utterly “other”. However, God is intimately and immediately united with His creation in the sense that He holds each creature in existence at all times. So I believe the underlying basis of your question is flawed.
 
tm21 said:
I don’t think that we as Catholics believe that God dwells in all things in the sense that He is part of the created order…that would be pantheism. God is utterly “other”. However, God is intimately and immediately united with His creation in the sense that He holds each creature in existence at all times. So I believe the underlying basis of your question is flawed.
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I didn’t mean he was present as part of things, but present as the cause of their being, as you said.

Linus2nd
 
Linusthe2nd said:
I didn’t mean he was present as part of things, but present as the cause of their being, as you said.

Linus2nd
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OK, now I understand. The essence of your question seems to be “how can the risen Christ be both at the right hand of the Father and at the same time hold all things in existence?” One principle to keep in mind is that in God’s external actions He acts as Trinity, so it is the Trinity which holds all things in existence. That said, we know of saints like Padre Pio who have bi-located, surely Jesus Christ could be in many, many places at once if He chose to since he is God. So Jesus being at the right hand of the father, and in countless other places at the same time isn’t’ problematic. Another thing to keep in mind is that when Christ was a baby He was still the 2nd person of the Trinity and as such, with the Father and Holy Spirit, He was still holding the entire universe in existence…mind blowing! 😉
 
tm21 said:
OK, now I understand. The essence of your question seems to be “how can the risen Christ be both at the right hand of the Father and at the same time hold all things in existence?” One principle to keep in mind is that in God’s external actions He acts as Trinity, so it is the Trinity which holds all things in existence. That said, we know of saints like Padre Pio who have bi-located, surely Jesus Christ could be in many, many places at once if He chose to since he is God. So Jesus being at the right hand of the father, and in countless other places at the same time isn’t’ problematic. Another thing to keep in mind is that when Christ was a baby He was still the 2nd person of the Trinity and as such, with the Father and Holy Spirit, He was still holding the entire universe in existence…mind blowing! 😉
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I think what I’m getting at is that before the Incarnation God’s action in the world was limited to the action of the Trinity, God, and Jesus Christ was not involved because he did not exist yet. So now, after the Incarnation, is it still the Trinity acting the same way - without the participation of Jesus Christ, except in those instances where he appears to people from time to time?

Linus2nd
 
Linusthe2nd said:
I think what I’m getting at is that before the Incarnation God’s action in the world was limited to the action of the Trinity, God, and Jesus Christ was not involved because he did not exist yet. So now, after the Incarnation, is it still the Trinity acting the same way - without the participation of Jesus Christ, except in those instances where he appears to people from time to time?

Linus2nd
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It is a mystery, however the hypostatic union persists from the time of the incarnation of Jesus Christ.
**B. *The Lordship of Christ over the Cosmos
3.1. In Saint Paul and in the body of Pauline literature, the risen Christ is often referred to as the one “under whose feet [the Father] placed all things”. This expression occurs in a variety of applications. It appears in these very terms in 1 Corinthians 15:27, Ephesians 1:22, and Hebrews 2:8; in equivalent terms in Ephesians 3:10, Colossians 1:18, and Philippians 3:21.
3.2. Regardless of its provenance (perhaps Gen 1:26 through Ps 8:7), this expression refers first of all to the glorified humanity of the Christ and not to his divinity alone. For it is to the incarnate Son that it pertains to “have all things placed under his feet”, since it is he who has destroyed the power to enslave held by sin and death. Since, through his Resurrection, Christ has gained control over the corruptibility immanent in the first Adam and has thus become in his own flesh “a spiritual body” par excellence, he inaugurates the rule of incorruptibility. This is why he is “the second and last Adam” (1 Cor 15:46-49), to whom “everything has been made subject” (1 Cor 15:27) and who can “subject everything to himself” (Phil 3:21).

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_cti_1979_cristologia_en.html
 
Vico said:
It is a mystery, however the hypostatic union persists from the time of the incarnation of Jesus Christ.
**B. *The Lordship of Christ over the Cosmos
3.1. In Saint Paul and in the body of Pauline literature, the risen Christ is often referred to as the one “under whose feet [the Father] placed all things”. This expression occurs in a variety of applications. It appears in these very terms in 1 Corinthians 15:27, Ephesians 1:22, and Hebrews 2:8; in equivalent terms in Ephesians 3:10, Colossians 1:18, and Philippians 3:21.
3.2. Regardless of its provenance (perhaps Gen 1:26 through Ps 8:7), this expression refers first of all to the glorified humanity of the Christ and not to his divinity alone. For it is to the incarnate Son that it pertains to “have all things placed under his feet”, since it is he who has destroyed the power to enslave held by sin and death. Since, through his Resurrection, Christ has gained control over the corruptibility immanent in the first Adam and has thus become in his own flesh “a spiritual body” par excellence, he inaugurates the rule of incorruptibility. This is why he is “the second and last Adam” (1 Cor 15:46-49), to whom “everything has been made subject” (1 Cor 15:27) and who can “subject everything to himself” (Phil 3:21).

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_cti_1979_cristologia_en.html
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This didn’t really address the issues I brought up.

Linus2ndI
 
Linusthe2nd said:
This didn’t really address the issues I brought up.

Linus2ndI
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You wrote: “is it still the Trinity acting the same way - without the participation of Jesus Christ,” however the quote posted has that:
the risen Christ is often referred to as the one “under whose feet [the Father] placed all things” … this expression refers first of all to the glorified humanity of the Christ and not to his divinity alone.
 
Vico said:
You wrote: “is it still the Trinity acting the same way - without the participation of Jesus Christ,” however the quote posted has that:
the risen Christ is often referred to as the one “under whose feet [the Father] placed all things” … this expression refers first of all to the glorified humanity of the Christ and not to his divinity alone.
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On the other hand we know that Christ is no longer physically present when the Sacred Species loose their accidental forms.

Linusthe2nd
 
Linusthe2nd said:
On the other hand we know that Christ is no longer physically present when the Sacred Species loose their accidental forms.

Linusthe2nd
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Sure, yet there is also the presence of Christ in the reserved Eucharist everywhere. The five modes of the presence of Christ are, according to Vatican II:
  • in the person of the minister
  • under the Eucharistic species
  • in the celebration of all the sacraments
  • in his word
  • in the assembled community when the Church prays and sing psalms together.
There is a bodily mission of the Holy Spirit in the faithful through the sacraments.

Matt. 28:19-20
%between%Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:
and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.​
 
Vico said:
Sure, yet there is also the presence of Christ in the reserved Eucharist everywhere. The five modes of the presence of Christ are, according to Vatican II:
  • in the person of the minister
  • under the Eucharistic species
  • in the celebration of all the sacraments
  • in his word
  • in the assembled community when the Church prays and sing psalms together.
There is a bodily mission of the Holy Spirit in the faithful through the sacraments.

Matt. 28:19-20
%between%Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:
and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.​
Click to expand...
But it is only " under the Eucharistic species " that Jesus Christ, the physical man, is present. In the other " modes " we can understand the Second Person without his union to human nature. And when the Church teaches about the attributes and powers of God, it simply says that " God is Omnipotent, " etc. By which we understand the Trinity, but the Incarnate Word is never mentioned specifically. Of course now that the Word has become Incarnate, has suffered and died, and now sits at the right hand of the Father, it is within the power of his Divinty to be physically present where ever he wishes. For example, he could be in us physically causing our being and in all things as well. But the Church has never mentioned that kind of presence. That is why I think God’s presence in all things as the cause of their being and guiding them to their proper ends, does not include the Glorified Incarnate Word, but is restricted to the Trinity. This is not a slight to the Incarnate Word because the Incarnate is the Second Person of the Trinity. All I am excluding is the glorified human nature of Christ.

Linus2nd
 
Vico said:
It is a mystery, however the hypostatic union persists from the time of the incarnation of Jesus Christ.
**B. *The Lordship of Christ over the Cosmos
3.1. In Saint Paul and in the body of Pauline literature, the risen Christ is often referred to as the one “under whose feet [the Father] placed all things”. This expression occurs in a variety of applications. It appears in these very terms in 1 Corinthians 15:27, Ephesians 1:22, and Hebrews 2:8; in equivalent terms in Ephesians 3:10, Colossians 1:18, and Philippians 3:21.
3.2. Regardless of its provenance (perhaps Gen 1:26 through Ps 8:7), this expression refers first of all to the glorified humanity of the Christ and not to his divinity alone. For it is to the incarnate Son that it pertains to “have all things placed under his feet”, since it is he who has destroyed the power to enslave held by sin and death. Since, through his Resurrection, Christ has gained control over the corruptibility immanent in the first Adam and has thus become in his own flesh “a spiritual body” par excellence, he inaugurates the rule of incorruptibility. This is why he is “the second and last Adam” (1 Cor 15:46-49), to whom “everything has been made subject” (1 Cor 15:27) and who can “subject everything to himself” (Phil 3:21).

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_cti_1979_cristologia_en.html
Click to expand...
See post # 12

Linus2nd
 
Linusthe2nd said:
But it is only " under the Eucharistic species " that Jesus Christ, the physical man, is present. In the other " modes " we can understand the Second Person without his union to human nature. And when the Church teaches about the attributes and powers of God, it simply says that " God is Omnipotent, " etc. By which we understand the Trinity, but the Incarnate Word is never mentioned specifically. Of course now that the Word has become Incarnate, has suffered and died, and now sits at the right hand of the Father, it is within the power of his Divinty to be physically present where ever he wishes. For example, he could be in us physically causing our being and in all things as well. But the Church has never mentioned that kind of presence. That is why I think God’s presence in all things as the cause of their being and guiding them to their proper ends, does not include the Glorified Incarnate Word, but is restricted to the Trinity. This is not a slight to the Incarnate Word because the Incarnate is the Second Person of the Trinity. All I am excluding is the glorified human nature of Christ.

Linus2nd
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Re: “But it is only " under the Eucharistic species " that Jesus Christ, the physical man, is present.” and “All I am excluding is the glorified human nature of Christ.”

The teaching of the Church is that the Son exists in the Eucharist entire (divinity, rational human soul, body and blood), and also since the hypostatic union of the divine and human natures in Christ, there is never a separation, and since the Resurrection, it is the glorified body of Christ.

Additionally the entire Trinity is present in the Eucharist, in accord with the dogmatic teaching of the Circuminsession *(*perichoresis) at the Catholic Council of Florence that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct but *inseparable. *Maximus Confessor (died 662 A.D.) used the word perichoresis rather than circumincession."Because of this unity the Father is entire in the Son, entire in the Holy Spirit; the Son is entire in the Father, entire in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is entire in the Father, entire in the Son. No one either excels another in eternity, or exceeds in magnitude, or is superior in power. For the fact that the Son is of the Father is eternal and without beginning. and that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son is eternal and without beginning.’’

Modern Catholic Dictionary – Hypostatic Union
The union of the human and divine natures in the one divine person of Christ. At the Council of Chalcedon (A.D. 451) the Church declared that the two natures of Christ are joined “in one person and one hypostasis” (Denzinger 302), where hypostasis means one substance. It was used to answer the Nestorian error of a merely accidental union of the two natures in Christ. The phrase “hypostatic union” was adopted a century later, at the fifth general council at Constantinople (A.D. 533). It is an adequate expression of Catholic doctrine about Jesus Christ that in him are two perfect natures, divine and human; that the divine person takes to himself, includes in his person a human nature; that the incarnate Son of God is an individual, complete substance; and that the union of the two natures is real (against Arius), no mere indwelling of God in a man (against Nestorius), with a rational soul (against Apollinaris), and the divinity remains unchanged (against Eutyches).
 
Linusthe2nd said:
I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.

Linus2nd
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Would you like a source? This is from theologian Father John A. Hardon, S.J. (1914 - 2000)** Easter and the Holy Eucharist**:At the Last Supper, when Christ pronounced the words, “This is my Body” this is the chalice of my Blood,” the Body and Blood that were to be nailed to the Cross and shed on Calvary. As some of the Church’s earliest commentators explain, on Easter Sunday night when Jesus sat down with the disciples at Emmaus, they recognized Him in the “breaking of bread,” which was the Eucharist.

Since the Resurrection of Christ, the Holy Eucharist is indeed the true, living Body and Blood of Christ. But it is now the Risen Christ in His glorified humanity. What are we saying? We are affirming an article of the Catholic faith. In the late eleventh century, when the monk Berengarius denied the Real Presence, he was told to profess what has since come to be known as the Eucharistic Creed:
I believe in my heart and openly profess that the bread and wine placed upon the altar are, by the mystery of the prayer and words of the Redeemer, substantially changed into the true and life-giving flesh and blood of Jesus Christ the Lord, and that after the consecration, there is present the true Body of Christ which was born of the Virgin and offered up for the salvation of the world, hung on the cross and now sits at the right hand of the Father, and that there is present the true blood of Christ which flowed from His side. They are present not only by means of a sign and of the efficacy of the Sacrament, but also in the very reality and truth of their nature and substance (Gregory VII, 1079).Words cannot be clearer. Christ in the Eucharist is now the Risen Savior who is seated at the right hand of His heavenly Father and will come on the last day to judge the living and the dead.

​
therealpresence.org/archives/Eucharist/Eucharist_004.htm
 
Elizium23 said:
Vico has provided extensive quotes and links to his authoritative sources. You have offered no such proof.
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And I already knew them. But the Church has taught that Christ is physiclly present only in his life on earth, in his glorified body after the Resurrection, in the consecrated Species, and at the Right hand of the Father in heaven. If the Church has specifically stated any other instances in which Christ is physically present, please provide them.

Linus2nd
 
Vico said:
Would you like a source? This is from theologian Father John A. Hardon, S.J. (1914 - 2000)** Easter and the Holy Eucharist**:At the Last Supper, when Christ pronounced the words, “This is my Body” this is the chalice of my Blood,” the Body and Blood that were to be nailed to the Cross and shed on Calvary. As some of the Church’s earliest commentators explain, on Easter Sunday night when Jesus sat down with the disciples at Emmaus, they recognized Him in the “breaking of bread,” which was the Eucharist.

Since the Resurrection of Christ, the Holy Eucharist is indeed the true, living Body and Blood of Christ. But it is now the Risen Christ in His glorified humanity. What are we saying? We are affirming an article of the Catholic faith. In the late eleventh century, when the monk Berengarius denied the Real Presence, he was told to profess what has since come to be known as the Eucharistic Creed:
I believe in my heart and openly profess that the bread and wine placed upon the altar are, by the mystery of the prayer and words of the Redeemer, substantially changed into the true and life-giving flesh and blood of Jesus Christ the Lord, and that after the consecration, there is present the true Body of Christ which was born of the Virgin and offered up for the salvation of the world, hung on the cross and now sits at the right hand of the Father, and that there is present the true blood of Christ which flowed from His side. They are present not only by means of a sign and of the efficacy of the Sacrament, but also in the very reality and truth of their nature and substance (Gregory VII, 1079).Words cannot be clearer. Christ in the Eucharist is now the Risen Savior who is seated at the right hand of His heavenly Father and will come on the last day to judge the living and the dead.

​
therealpresence.org/archives/Eucharist/Eucharist_004.htm
Click to expand...
I get the feeling that you don’t understand what I have said. I have read Fr. Hardon too, and the above quote doesn’t address my question. And I already knew them. But the Church has taught that Christ is physiclly present only in his life on earth, in his glorified body after the Resurrection, in the consecrated Species, and at the Right hand of the Father in heaven. If the Church has specifically stated any other instances in which Christ is physically present, please provide them.

Linus2nd
 
Linusthe2nd said:
I get the feeling that you don’t understand what I have said. I have read Fr. Hardon too, and the above quote doesn’t address my question. And I already knew them. But the Church has taught that Christ is physiclly present only in his life on earth, in his glorified body after the Resurrection, in the consecrated Species, and at the Right hand of the Father in heaven. If the Church has specifically stated any other instances in which Christ is physically present, please provide them.

Linus2nd
Click to expand...
I may not understand. Please explain your remark which I am responding to “All I am excluding is the glorified human nature of Christ.”
 
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