Son of God, Son of Man. Modes of Presence?

[Linusthe2nd]

How about this: please show me where Aquinas (or any of the Church Fathers for that matter) supports your position…that the 2nd person of the Trinity is now acting in certain ways that Jesus Christ cannot. It seams to me that you are radically separating the Word from the person of Jesus Christ. Your quotation of Aquinas actually does not support your position, it merely states a fact about the nature of God. Your position (if I understand correctly) is that the Word can work separately from Jesus Christ)…please show me a quotation that directly supports that position. Thanks.

God the Father has been eternally begetting the Son, his Word. But that Word only became Christ, the man, at the Incarnation. I am suggesting that the Word continues to work with the Trinity in the governance of the universe, but not as the man of the Incarnation. That man has existed in a physical form only from the Incarnatin and the modes of this existence have been defined specifically.

That God works most intimately in all things is taught by the Church. Aquinas interpreted this to mean that God is present by his substance and essence in all things. This interpretation has never been challenged. Now if, since the Incarnation, the physical Christ is present in all things, that means that, since the Incarnation, the manner of God’s governance and presence has changed.

I raise the question for discussion, that is all.

Linus2nd

 

[Linusthe2nd]

Christ has always existed. The person Jesus Christ was born as a human, but it is the second person of the trinity who is the creator with the father and the spirit. I don’t know how the physical divine Jesus who ascended into heaven partakes in the continuation of the world, but it was said when he returns he will be like he was when he went. God can do anything, be anywhere, at anytime.

Christ has existed only since the Incarnation. God the Father has been eternally begetting the Son, his Word. But that Word only became Christ, the man, at the Incarnation. I am suggesting that the Word continues to work with the Trinity in the governance of the universe, but not as the man of the Incarnation. That man has existed in a physical form only from the Incarnatin and the modes of this existence have been defined specifically.

That God works most intimately in all things is taught by the Church. Aquinas interpreted this to mean that God is present by his substance and essence in all things. This interpretation has never been challenged. Now if, since the Incarnation, the physical Christ is present in all things, that means that, since the Incarnation, the manner of God’s governance and presence has changed.

I raise the question for discussion, that is all.

Linus2nd

 

[Vico]

That does not address the issue.

Linus2nd

Strange that you say that considering this: “that angels and men obey and are subject to His power as man, namely, that Christ obtains His power over all creatures solely in the name of the hypostatic union” in the post.

Also I noticed later that you said (post #28) Christ has not the governance of the physical world.

There I had posted that “All power is given to me in heaven and in earth”:

We also know what Christ said in Matthew 28:18-20:
And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

 

[Vico]

Christ has existed only since the Incarnation. God the Father has been eternally begetting the Son, his Word. But that Word only became Christ, the man, at the Incarnation. I am suggesting that the Word continues to work with the Trinity in the governance of the universe, but not as the man of the Incarnation. That man has existed in a physical form only from the Incarnatin and the modes of this existence have been defined specifically.

That God works most intimately in all things is taught by the Church. Aquinas interpreted this to mean that God is present by his substance and essence in all things. This interpretation has never been challenged. Now if, since the Incarnation, the physical Christ is present in all things, that means that, since the Incarnation, the manner of God’s governance and presence has changed.

I raise the question for discussion, that is all.

Linus2nd

The thread time uses "modes of presence" the term used in Vatican I, and it seems that you equate this to “modes of this existence”. Can you explain why you equate them?

The five **modes of the presence **of Christ are, according to Vatican II:

• in the person of the minister
• under the Eucharistic species
• in the celebration of all the sacraments
• in his word
• in the assembled community when the Church prays and sing psalms together.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

Strange that you say that considering this: “that angels and men obey and are subject to His power as man, namely, that Christ obtains His power over all creatures solely in the name of the hypostatic union” in the post.

I do not deny that Christ has " power over all creatures " but he has it in invirtue of the fact that he is the Second Person of the Trinity. And the Second Person of the Trinity can act in his physical union with the man Christ or as not being united with the man Christ. In other words, the Second Person has two modes of existence, being united with Christ when he is doing the things our Savior did on earth and while siting at the right hand of the Father and as governing the universe. In the latter, he acts with the Father and the Holy Spirit in a non physical or spiritual mode of existence…

When Christ said that all power had been given him over all creatures, we must remember that it is the Second Person of the Trinity that is speaking. That does not mean that when the Second Person is governing creatures that it is Christ the man who so acts, but that it is the Second Person who is acting in his spiritual mode of existence.

Also I noticed later that you said (post #28) Christ has not the governance of the physical world.

I was refering to his non physical mode of existence. My contention is that the part the Second Person plays in the governance of the universe has not changed since the Incarnation. That it was a non physical mode of presence, both before and after the Incarnation. Here I exclude those actions restricted to his mode of existence or presence as Jesus Christ. Those physical modes, it is my contention, are limited to the earthly life of Christ, the forty days after his Resurrection, his physical Presence in the Eucharist, his physical Presence at the right hand of the Father, and in those rare occurances when he has appeard to various Saints.

When the Catechism says that God operates most intimately in all things, it is talking about the Trinity, in which the Second Person is spiritually at work in things in conjunction with the Father and the Holy Spirit.

QUOTE]There I had posted that “All power is given to me in heaven and in earth”:

Christ is speaking as the Second Person of the Trinity. And the Second Person has two modes of presence or existence, physical and spiritual. His governance of the world, I contend, is in his spiritual mode of existence.

Linus2nd

 

[Linusthe2nd]

The thread time uses "modes of presence" the term used in Vatican I, and it seems that you equate this to “modes of this existence”. Can you explain why you equate them?

I wasn’t thinking of Vatican 1. But it is true that I equate the two phrases.

The five modes of the presence of Christ are, according to Vatican II:

I will give my interpretation of what these mean.

*]in the person of the minister

This is the spiritual presence of the Second Person.

*]under the Eucharistic species

This is the physical presence of the Second Person, Jesus Christ in the flesh.

*]in the celebration of all the sacraments

This is the spiritual presence of the Second Person.

*]in his word

This is the spiritual presence of the Second Person.

*]in the assembled community when the Church prays and sing psalms together.

This is the spiritual presence of the Second Person.

Of course when I say the " presence of the Second Person, " I include the other Persons of the Trinity, because where one is present and acting, all three are present and acting…But we are emphasizing the Second Person.

Linus2nd

 

[Vico]

I wasn’t thinking of Vatican 1. But it is true that I equate the two phrases.

I will give my interpretation of what these mean.

This is the spiritual presence of the Second Person.
This is the physical presence of the Second Person, Jesus Christ in the flesh.
This is the spiritual presence of the Second Person.
This is the spiritual presence of the Second Person.
This is the spiritual presence of the Second Person.

Of course when I say the " presence of the Second Person, " I include the other Persons of the Trinity, because where one is present and acting, all three are present and acting…But we are emphasizing the Second Person.

Linus2nd

Thank you. At Vatican I it was only the mode of presence in the Eucharist that I remember reading about. At Vatican II the others were elaborated.
Linus2nd:

His governance of the world, I contend, is in his spiritual mode of existence.

So putting the two together I get that “spiritual mode of existence” means “spiritual presence” and similar for physical. Is that correct?

So as we pray in the Byzantine Catholic Divine Liturgy, we do not differentiate between spiritual and physical:O Son of God, risen from the dead, save us who sing to you: Alleluia!

The form of the body, the rational soul is essentially immaterial (Council of Vienne, 1311) and an incomplete substance which in conjunction with the body it makes up the substantial unity of human nature. The rational soul is spiritual. Therefore a merely spiritual presence includes an incomplete human nature of the glorified Christ.

So you are speculating that we only have the governance (guidance, intercession) of the incomplete human nature of the glorified Christ since his ascension. However, resurrection means that the body and soul are reunited, therefore the human nature of the glorified Christ cannot be incomplete since his resurrection.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

Thank you. At Vatican I it was only the mode of presence in the Eucharist that I remember reading about. At Vatican II the others were elaborated
So putting the two together I get that “spiritual mode of existence” means “spiritual presence” and similar for physical. Is that correct?

I’m saying that the Second Person acts with the Trinity governing the physical world in the spiritual mode of his existence, which makes his presence in the physical world a spiritual presence. Christ, in my view, does not take part in this governing.

But when he is present as the Person of Christ at those times Christ’s action is specifically mentioned ( the Eucharist, at the right hand of the Father, as he walked the earth before his death and after his Resurrection ), he is physically present. And of course, even in these instances the Father and the Holy Spirit are present. .

So as we pray in the Byzantine Catholic Divine Liturgy, we do not differentiate between spiritual and physical:O Son of God, risen from the dead, save us who sing to you: Alleluia!

But you must understand, the Christ, as united with the Second Person, only has a pysical mode of existence or presence ( the four instances I mentioned above ). Your quote here makes no distinction between spiritual and physical. I realize the Eastern Rites are more mystical, but one must not confuse mystical language with reality…

The form of the body, the rational soul is essentially immaterial (Council of Vienne, 1311) and an incomplete substance which in conjunction with the body it makes up the substantial unity of human nature. The rational soul is spiritual.

Correct.

Therefore a merely spiritual presence includes an incomplete human nature of the glorified Christ.

The only time Christ’s soul was separated from his body was when he descended into the under world to preach to those just souls who had died before his own death.

Otherwise there was never, and is not now, any separation of Christ’s human nature and his Divine nature.

So you are speculating that we only have the governance (guidance, intercession) of the incomplete human nature of the glorified Christ since his ascension.

Not at all. As I just said, the only time Christ’s human nature was separated from his Divine Nature was when he descended into the under world for the three days after his death. But even then his Divine Nature was still united to his soul. At the same time it was united to his dead body.

So in governance and intercession, or even inspiration, we are speaking of the action of the Trinity, including the Second Person, but not including the Christ who is always exists as a unity of the human and Divine Nature3s. What I am saying is that the Second Person, united to the physical Christ, is present in the Eucharist and at the right hand of the Father, and, at the same moment the Trinity, including the Second Person, not united to the physical Christ, is governing the universe.

However, resurrection means that the body and soul are reunited, therefore the human nature of the glorified Christ cannot be incomplete since his resurrection.

I never said the human nature of the glorified Christ was ever incomplete. You must remember that the Second Person of the Trinity, is not restricted to his presence in union with the human nature of Christ, whether in his unglorified or in his glorified mode of existence. He may also be governing the universe without being united to the human nature of Christ.

Of course I am just speculating. You see, I have never seen this question raised and I thought it was interestion. The Chruch does not make these modes by which the Second Person may be present very clear. It is something that has to be reasoned through.

Linus2nd

 

[Vico]

I’m saying that the Second Person acts with the Trinity governing the physical world in the spiritual mode of his existence, which makes his presence in the physical world a spiritual presence. Christ, in my view, does not take part in this governing.

But when he is present as the Person of Christ at those times Christ’s action is specifically mentioned ( the Eucharist, at the right hand of the Father, as he walked the earth before his death and after his Resurrection ), he is physically present. And of course, even in these instances the Father and the Holy Spirit are present. .

But you must understand, the Christ, as united with the Second Person, only has a pysical mode of existence or presence ( the four instances I mentioned above ). Your quote here makes no distinction between spiritual and physical. I realize the Eastern Rites are more mystical, but one must not confuse mystical language with reality…

Correct.

The only time Christ’s soul was separated from his body was when he descended into the under world to preach to those just souls who had died before his own death.

Otherwise there was never, and is not now, any separation of Christ’s human nature and his Divine nature.

Not at all. As I just said, the only time Christ’s human nature was separated from his Divine Nature was when he descended into the under world for the three days after his death. But even then his Divine Nature was still united to his soul. At the same time it was united to his dead body.

So in governance and intercession, or even inspiration, we are speaking of the action of the Trinity, including the Second Person, but not including the Christ who is always exists as a unity of the human and Divine Nature3s. What I am saying is that the Second Person, united to the physical Christ, is present in the Eucharist and at the right hand of the Father, and, at the same moment the Trinity, including the Second Person, not united to the physical Christ, is governing the universe.

I never said the human nature of the glorified Christ was ever incomplete. You must remember that the Second Person of the Trinity, is not restricted to his presence in union with the human nature of Christ, whether in his unglorified or in his glorified mode of existence. He may also be governing the universe without being united to the human nature of Christ.

Of course I am just speculating. You see, I have never seen this question raised and I thought it was interestion. The Chruch does not make these modes by which the Second Person may be present very clear. It is something that has to be reasoned through.

Linus2nd

I believe that it is untrue that “He may also be governing the universe without being united to the human nature of Christ.” because the dogmas relating to the hypostatic union present something different:

• The Hypostatic Union of Christ’s human nature with the Divine Logos toolt place at the moment of conception.
• The Hypostatic Union was never interrupted.
• The Hypostatic Union will never cease.
• The Blood in the Living Body of Jesus Christ is an integral constituent part of human nature, immediately, not merely mediately, united with the Person of the Divine Logos.
• Christ’s Divine and Human characteristics and activities are to be predicated of the one Word Incarnate.
• By reason of His endowment with the fullness of created habitual grace, Christ’s soul is also accidentally holy.
• Christ’s Humanity, as instrument of the Logos, possesses the power of producing supernatural effects.
• Christ ascended body and soul into Heaven and sits at the right hand of the Father.

These are acts of governance:

John 14, 2 – In Heaven He prepares a place for His own

Hebrews 7, 25 – He intercedes for them

Hebrews 9, 24, Romans 8, 34, 1 John 2, 1 – He is always living to make intercession for them

John 14, 16; 16, 7 – He sends them His gifts of grace, especially the Holy Spirit.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

I believe that it is untrue that “He may also be governing the universe without being united to the human nature of Christ.” because the dogmas relating to the hypostatic union present something different:

• The Hypostatic Union of Christ’s human nature with the Divine Logos toolt place at the moment of conception.
• The Hypostatic Union was never interrupted.
• The Hypostatic Union will never cease.
• The Blood in the Living Body of Jesus Christ is an integral constituent part of human nature, immediately, not merely mediately, united with the Person of the Divine Logos.
• Christ’s Divine and Human characteristics and activities are to be predicated of the one Word Incarnate.
• By reason of His endowment with the fullness of created habitual grace, Christ’s soul is also accidentally holy.
• Christ’s Humanity, as instrument of the Logos, possesses the power of producing supernatural effects.
• Christ ascended body and soul into Heaven and sits at the right hand of the Father.

These are acts of governance:

John 14, 2 – In Heaven He prepares a place for His own

Hebrews 7, 25 – He intercedes for them

Hebrews 9, 24, Romans 8, 34, 1 John 2, 1 – He is always living to make intercession for them

John 14, 16; 16, 7 – He sends them His gifts of grace, especially the Holy Spirit.

These are not instance of governance. Christ intercedes for us and guides the Church through the Holy Spirit ( with whom the Father and the Son are also present, but not the Christ ). If you look at the Summa Theologiae and the Summa Contra Gentiles on God’s governance and providence and you will never see Jesus Christ mentioned.

Linus2nd

 

[Vico]

These are not instance of governance. Christ intercedes for us and guides the Church through the Holy Spirit ( with whom the Father and the Son are also present, but not the Christ ). If you look at the Summa Theologiae and the Summa Contra Gentiles on God’s governance and providence and you will never see Jesus Christ mentioned.

Linus2nd

1. The glorified body is also eternally united with the human soul of Jesus Christ and constitutes the complete humanity. The humanity and divinity are united in the person of the Son and so also in the persons of the Father and Holy Spirit also through circumincession.
2. What Summa Theologiae and Summa Contra Gentiles fails to prove is that those examples are not governance. Vatican II, Lumen Gentuim, states that Christ and the Mystical Body of Christ are not two realities but one:[Chapter I, 7.] By communicating His Spirit, Christ made His brothers, called together from all nations, mystically the components of His own Body.

[Chapter I, 8.] Christ, the one Mediator, established and continually sustains here on earth His holy Church, the community of faith, hope and charity, as an entity with visible delineation (9*) through which He communicated truth and grace to all. But, the society structured with hierarchical organs and the Mystical Body of Christ, are not to be considered as two realities, nor are the visible assembly and the spiritual community, nor the earthly Church and the Church enriched with heavenly things; rather they form one complex reality which coalesces from a divine and a human element. (10*) For this reason, by no weak analogy, it is compared to the mystery of the incarnate Word. As the assumed nature inseparably united to Him, serves the divine Word as a living organ of salvation, so, in a similar way, does the visible social structure of the Church serve the Spirit of Christ, who vivifies it, in the building up of the body. (73) (11*)

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

 

[Linusthe2nd]

1. The glorified body is also eternally united with the human soul of Jesus Christ and constitutes the complete humanity. The humanity and divinity are united in the person of the Son and so also in the persons of the Father and Holy Spirit also through circumincession.

Agreed and I have never denied that.

1. What Summa Theologiae and Summa Contra Gentiles fails to prove is that those examples are not governance.

What " examples " fail to illustrate governance? What are you referring to?

Vatican II, Lumen Gentuim, states that Christ and the Mystical Body of Christ are not two realities but one:

Chapter I, 7.] By communicating His Spirit, Christ made His brothers, called together from all nations, mystically the components of His own Body.

So it is by the the action of the Holy Spirit that we are to be regarded one, it is not by the physical presence of Christ in our daily lives - except at Mass at the consecration at at Communion. So we are Mystically one because of the direct action of the Holy Spirit.

[Chapter I, 8.] Christ, the one Mediator, established and continually sustains here on earth His holy Church, the community of faith, hope and charity, as an entity with visible delineation (9*) through which He communicated truth and grace to all. But, the society structured with hierarchical organs and the Mystical Body of Christ, are not to be considered as two realities, nor are the visible assembly and the spiritual community, nor the earthly Church and the Church enriched with heavenly things; rather they form one complex reality which coalesces from a divine and a human element. (10*) For this reason, by no weak analogy, it is compared to the mystery of the incarnate Word. As the assumed nature inseparably united to Him, serves the divine Word as a living organ of salvation, so, in a similar way, does the visible social structure of the Church serve the Spirit of Christ, who vivifies it, in the building up of the body. (73) (11*)
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

So once again we are speaking of the action of the Holy Spirit.

So far you have failed to either prove me wrong or support your own case.

I told you before, the Tradition and teaching of the Church mentions only four conditions in which the Incarnate Christ is present, and I reject any mystical " examples " tout court. These are during Christ’s earthly life, during the forty days after his Resurrection, at the Right hand of the Father, at the Consecration when he becomes physically present in the Sacred Species and remains until the Species cease to exist. When you can definitively give me other examples, you may have some argument.

Linus2nd

 

[Richca]

I think what I’m getting at is that before the Incarnation God’s action in the world was limited to the action of the Trinity, God, and Jesus Christ was not involved because he did not exist yet. So now, after the Incarnation, is it still the Trinity acting the same way - without the participation of Jesus Christ, except in those instances where he appears to people from time to time?

Linus2nd

Christ as Man is the new Adam as St Paul says and as such he is the head of all humanity. Christ is also the King of the Universe and the head of the mystical body of the Church. It is through Christ as Man that all graces come to us “From his fullness we have all received, grace in place of grace” (John 1:16). In the distribution of grace, Christ as man plays an active role for he is our redeemer, though not without the divinity of course. God is the source of all grace but the humanity of Christ is the instrument through which they flow. This does not mean that the body of Christ encompasses the entire universe. I think the Church through the mouth of one of our popes rejected this view (I would have to look it up). But the human nature of Christ is united to the Word, so Christ as man sees all things in his divine nature. So, I would say that Christ as Man definitely plays a role in the distribution of all graces just as our Blessed Mother does.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

Christ as Man is the new Adam as St Paul says and as such he is the head of all humanity. Christ is also the King of the Universe and the head of the mystical body of the Church. It is through Christ as Man that all graces come to us “From his fullness we have all received, grace in place of grace” (John 1:16). In the distribution of grace, Christ as man plays an active role for he is our redeemer, though not without the divinity of course. God is the source of all grace but the humanity of Christ is the instrument through which they flow. This does not mean that the body of Christ encompasses the entire universe. I think the Church through the mouth of one of our popes rejected this view (I would have to look it up). But the human nature of Christ is united to the Word, so Christ as man sees all things in his divine nature. So, I would say that Christ as Man definitely plays a role in the distribution of all graces just as our Blessed Mother does.

Of course graces come through the action and presence of the Holy Spirit, which would include the presence of the Father and Second Person as part of the Trinity, but the physical presence of Christ would not be present in my view. He commands from heaven at the right hand of the Father. And I think this would be regarded as part of God’s governance and providence.

Any way, this discussion is an original topic which I have never come across before. It’s a nice change of pace.

Linus2nd

 

[Vico]

Agreed and I have never denied that.
What " examples " fail to illustrate governance? What are you referring to?
So it is by the the action of the Holy Spirit that we are to be regarded one, it is not by the physical presence of Christ in our daily lives - except at Mass at the consecration at at Communion. So we are Mystically one because of the direct action of the Holy Spirit.
So once again we are speaking of the action of the Holy Spirit.
So far you have failed to either prove me wrong or support your own case.
I told you before, the Tradition and teaching of the Church mentions only four conditions in which the Incarnate Christ is present, and I reject any mystical " examples " tout court. These are during Christ’s earthly life, during the forty days after his Resurrection, at the Right hand of the Father, at the Consecration when he becomes physically present in the Sacred Species and remains until the Species cease to exist. When you can definitively give me other examples, you may have some argument.

Linus2nd

Before replying to specific questions I want to identify the root of the issue, it is contained in my statement “I believe that it is untrue that “He may also be governing the universe without being united to the human nature of Christ.””

The Church teaches us that the glorified body in united with the rational soul and this this is humanity, and that Jesus Christ is the Son, and that Jesus Christ is the head of his Church, and united with the faithful too. The union of divine and human in Jesus Christ and that union with the Church now, which is both physical for Jesus Christ and for the faithful with bodies.

I think you should understand my last two posts to you, which contains the answers to these questions you asked: “What " examples " fail to illustrate governance? What are you referring to?” And you wrote: “So once again we are speaking of the action of the Holy Spirit.”

Post #49 has the examples of governance which Summa Theologiae and the Summa Contra Gentiles fail to prove are not governance. Shown again below, including the action of the Holy Spirit:

First:These are acts of governance:

John 14, 2 – In Heaven He prepares a place for His own

Hebrews 7, 25 – He intercedes for them

Hebrews 9, 24, Romans 8, 34, 1 John 2, 1 – He is always living to make intercession for them
John 14, 16; 16, 7 – He sends them His gifts of grace, especially the Holy Spirit.
Second:1) The glorified body is also eternally united with the human soul of Jesus Christ and constitutes the complete humanity. The humanity and divinity are united in the person of the Son and so also in the persons of the Father and Holy Spirit also through circumincession.

1. What Summa Theologiae and Summa Contra Gentiles fails to prove is that those examples are not governance. Vatican II, Lumen Gentuim, states that Christ and the Mystical Body of Christ are not two realities but one:[Chapter I, 7.] By communicating His Spirit, Christ made His brothers, called together from all nations, mystically the components of His own Body.

[Chapter I, 8.] Christ, the one Mediator, established and continually sustains here on earth His holy Church, the community of faith, hope and charity, as an entity with visible delineation (9*) through which He communicated truth and grace to all. But, the society structured with hierarchical organs and the Mystical Body of Christ, are not to be considered as two realities, nor are the visible assembly and the spiritual community, nor the earthly Church and the Church enriched with heavenly things; rather they form one complex reality which coalesces from a divine and a human element. (10*) For this reason, by no weak analogy, it is compared to the mystery of the incarnate Word. As the assumed nature inseparably united to Him, serves the divine Word as a living organ of salvation, so, in a similar way, does the visible social structure of the Church serve the Spirit of Christ, who vivifies it, in the building up of the body. (73) (11*)
vatican.va/archive/hist_c…entium_en.html

Our Lord Jesus Christ promised to send us the Holy Spirit in his name.

As was stated by the Catholic Church:“Christ, the one Mediator, established and continually sustains here on earth His holy Church.”

“nor are the visible assembly and the spiritual community, nor the earthly Church and the Church enriched with heavenly things; rather they form one complex reality which coalesces from a divine and a human element.”
It is due to the truth that you agree with, shown in the following quote, that the physical glorified body of Christ is present now in both heaven and earth, including all the modes of presence: Christ in his glorified body unified with the faithful, including those with physical bodies, exists now according to this teaching, especially since the Person of the Son of God (and the Holy Trinity through circumincession) is always united to the complete human nature (body and rational soul).

The glorified body is also eternally united with the human soul of Jesus Christ and constitutes the complete humanity. The humanity and divinity are united in the person of the Son and so also in the persons of the Father and Holy Spirit also through circumincession

 

[Linusthe2nd]

Before replying to specific questions I want to identify the root of the issue, it is contained in my statement “I believe that it is untrue that “He may also be governing the universe without being united to the human nature of Christ.””

The Church teaches us that the glorified body in united with the rational soul and this this is humanity, and that Jesus Christ is the Son, and that Jesus Christ is the head of his Church, and united with the faithful too. The union of divine and human in Jesus Christ and that union with the Church now, which is both physical for Jesus Christ and for the faithful with bodies.

I think you should understand my last two posts to you, which contains the answers to these questions you asked: “What " examples " fail to illustrate governance? What are you referring to?” And you wrote: “So once again we are speaking of the action of the Holy Spirit.”

Post #49 has the examples of governance which Summa Theologiae and the Summa Contra Gentiles fail to prove are not governance. Shown again below, including the action of the Holy Spirit:

First:These are acts of governance:

John 14, 2 – In Heaven He prepares a place for His own

Hebrews 7, 25 – He intercedes for them

Hebrews 9, 24, Romans 8, 34, 1 John 2, 1 – He is always living to make intercession for them
John 14, 16; 16, 7 – He sends them His gifts of grace, especially the Holy Spirit.
Second:1) The glorified body is also eternally united with the human soul of Jesus Christ and constitutes the complete humanity. The humanity and divinity are united in the person of the Son and so also in the persons of the Father and Holy Spirit also through circumincession.

1. What Summa Theologiae and Summa Contra Gentiles fails to prove is that those examples are not governance. Vatican II, Lumen Gentuim, states that Christ and the Mystical Body of Christ are not two realities but one:[Chapter I, 7.] By communicating His Spirit, Christ made His brothers, called together from all nations, mystically the components of His own Body.

[Chapter I, 8.] Christ, the one Mediator, established and continually sustains here on earth His holy Church, the community of faith, hope and charity, as an entity with visible delineation (9*) through which He communicated truth and grace to all. But, the society structured with hierarchical organs and the Mystical Body of Christ, are not to be considered as two realities, nor are the visible assembly and the spiritual community, nor the earthly Church and the Church enriched with heavenly things; rather they form one complex reality which coalesces from a divine and a human element. (10*) For this reason, by no weak analogy, it is compared to the mystery of the incarnate Word. As the assumed nature inseparably united to Him, serves the divine Word as a living organ of salvation, so, in a similar way, does the visible social structure of the Church serve the Spirit of Christ, who vivifies it, in the building up of the body. (73) (11*)
vatican.va/archive/hist_c…entium_en.html

Our Lord Jesus Christ promised to send us the Holy Spirit in his name.

As was stated by the Catholic Church:“Christ, the one Mediator, established and continually sustains here on earth His holy Church.”

“nor are the visible assembly and the spiritual community, nor the earthly Church and the Church enriched with heavenly things; rather they form one complex reality which coalesces from a divine and a human element.”
It is due to the truth that you agree with, shown in the following quote, that the physical glorified body of Christ is present now in both heaven and earth, including all the modes of presence: Christ in his glorified body unified with the faithful, including those with physical bodies, exists now according to this teaching, especially since the Person of the Son of God (and the Holy Trinity through circumincession) is always united to the complete human nature (body and rational soul).

Sorry Vico, that is just wrong. I may respond in detail at a later date or may not, I have other things to do and it doesn’t look like much can be gained here.

Linus2nd

 

[Richca]

Before replying to specific questions I want to identify the root of the issue, it is contained in my statement “I believe that it is untrue that “He may also be governing the universe without being united to the human nature of Christ.””
.

The point Vico is making here concerns the awkward and troubling statement Linus made when he said “He may be governing the universe without being united to the human nature of Christ.” This raised an eyebrow in me when I first saw it too. The Church teaches that since the incarnation, the human nature of Christ is substantially united to the divine person of the Son of God and so Jesus Christ is true God and true Man. Since the incarnation, this union of the divine and human natures in the person of the Son of God is inseparable. So, Linus’ statement, taken literally, we cannot admit.

I think Linus holds to the teachings of the Church so he may recognize the awkward wording of the statement he made. I think he is trying to make a point but it could or should be worded differently I think.

To resolve the issue at hand, we must admit according to the teaching of the Church, that Jesus Christ is one person in two, unmixed and complete natures, namely, the divine and the human. Since Jesus Christ is one person in two complete natures then, I think we need to look at the modes of his presence according to what is proper to each nature. It is proper and natural to the divine nature of Christ that he is everywhere with the Father and the Holy Spirit and that with the Father and the Holy Spirit, he is the creator, the first cause and first mover of the universe as well as the cause and source of grace. Of course, it is not proper to the created human nature of Christ to apply the above too. A human being is not everywhere but only in a certain, circumscribed, and limited place. So, the human nature of Christ, his body and soul, in its natural mode of existence is in heaven as he ascended into heaven, in a certain, circumscribed and limited place I think. The body and soul of Christ is in the eucharist too but the body of Christ is not in the eucharist according to its natural and extended mode of being, but after the manner of substance. St Thomas holds as well as the catechism of the Council of Trent, and the statements of a couple of popes, that the mode of the body and blood of Christ in the eucharist is not strictly speaking in a place. The decrees of the Council of Trent concerning the eucharist mention places but this is places used in a loose sense.

Christ is the head of humanity and the head of the Church, his mystical body, both as God and as man. The soul of Christ was filled to the maximum extent with grace as St John says "And the Word became flesh*
and made his dwelling among us,
and we saw his glory,
the glory as of the Father’s only Son,
full of grace and truth.(1: 14).
And “From his fullness we have all received, grace in place of grace” (John 1: 16). St Thomas Aquinas says “To give grace or the Holy Spirit belongs to Christ as he is God, authoritatively; but instrumentally it belongs also to Him as man, inasmuch as His manhood is the instrument of His Godhead” (ST, Pt. III, Q. 8, art.1). So, all graces come to us from the Father, through Christ the God-Man, and by the Holy Spirit and Mary Immaculate.

In conclusion, I think in determining the modes of Christ’s presence, we need to look at what is proper, natural, and in conformity to the human nature of Christ and what is proper, natural, and in conformity to His divine nature. The eucharist is a special supernatural case performed by the Almighty power of God which we believe on the words of Christ and which is totally beyond anything we naturally observe in the created world and which naturally we might even think to be impossible except that with God, nothing is impossible.

 

[Vico]

Sorry Vico, that is just wrong. I may respond in detail at a later date or may not, I have other things to do and it doesn’t look like much can be gained here.

Linus2nd

I understand your opinion. Don’t worry about a reply. But I do have something to post from the Doctor of the Church, St. Hilary of Poitiers taught much on the topic of physicality.

• The non-material soul physically resides in the body.

• Christ's body, both incarnate and glorified states, is physical.

• Humans are physically in the glorified body of Christ.

• Heaven can contain: Father, Son, Holy Spirit, angels, the faithful (in the glorified body of the Son).

This is consistent with Stoic philosophy of mixing of materials in the same physical space.

**On the Trinity (Hilary of Poitiers) Book X No. 65…**How far then shall we push our babbling ignorance and blasphemy, professing to explain what is hidden in the mystery of God? He that descended is the same also that ascended. Can we longer doubt that the Man Christ Jesus rose from the dead, ascended above the heavens and is at the right hand of God? We cannot say His body descended into Hades, which lay in the grave. If then He Who descended is one with Him, Who ascended; if His body did not go down into Hades, yet really arose from the dead, and ascended into heaven, what remains, except to believe in the secret mystery, which is hidden from the world and the rulers of this age, and to confess that, ascending or descending, He is but One, one Jesus Christ for us, Son of God and Son of Man, God the Word and Man in the flesh, Who suffered, died, was buried, rose again, was received into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God: Who possesses in His one single self, according to the Divine Plan and nature, in the form of God and in the form of a servant, the Human and Divine without separation or division.

On the Trinity (Hilary of Poitiers) Book XI No. 4242. Does He not reveal to His Apostles the Dispensation of this glory by the express signification of the words, Now is the Son of Man glorified, and God is glorified in Him. If God has been glorified in Him, God has glorified Him in Himself, and straightway has He glorified Him. In the words, Now is the Son of Man honoured, and God is honoured in Him, we have first the glory of the Son of Man, then the glory of God in the Son of Man. So there is first signified the glory of the body, which it borrows from its association with the divine nature: and then follows the promotion to a fuller glory derived from an addition to the glory of the body. If God has been honoured in Him, God has honoured Him in Himself, and straightway has God honoured Him. God has glorified Him in Himself, because He has already been glorified in Him. God was glorified in Him: this refers to the glory of the body, for by this glory is expressed in a human body the glory of God, in the glory of the Son of Man is seen the divine glory. God was glorified in Him, and therefore has God glorified Him in Himself: that is, by His promotion to the Godhead, whose glory was increased in Him, God has glorified Him in Himself. Already before this He was reigning in the glory which springs from the divine glory: from henceforth, however, He is Himself to pass into the divine glory. God has glorified Him in Himself: that is, in that nature by which God is what He is. That God may be all in all: that His whole being, leaving behind the Dispensation by which He is man, may be eternally transformed into divinity. Nor is the time of this hidden from us: And God has glorified Him in Himself, and straightway has He glorified Him. At the moment when Judas arose to betray Him, He signified as present the glory which He would obtain after His Passion through the Resurrection, but assigned to the future the glory with which God would glorify Him with Himself. The glory of God is seen in Him in the power of the Resurrection, but He Himself, out of the Dispensation of subjection, will be taken eternally into the glory of God, that is, into God, the all in all.
newadvent.org/fathers/330210.htm
newadvent.org/fathers/330211.htm

 

[Linusthe2nd]

I understand your opinion. Don’t worry about a reply. But I do have something to post from the Doctor of the Church, St. Hilary of Poitiers taught much on the topic of physicality.

• The non-material soul physically resides in the body.

• Christ's body, both incarnate and glorified states, is physical.

• Humans are physically in the glorified body of Christ.

• Heaven can contain: Father, Son, Holy Spirit, angels, the faithful (in the glorified body of the Son).

This is consistent with Stoic philosophy of mixing of materials in the same physical space.

**On the Trinity (Hilary of Poitiers) Book X No. 65…**How far then shall we push our babbling ignorance and blasphemy, professing to explain what is hidden in the mystery of God? He that descended is the same also that ascended. Can we longer doubt that the Man Christ Jesus rose from the dead, ascended above the heavens and is at the right hand of God? We cannot say His body descended into Hades, which lay in the grave. If then He Who descended is one with Him, Who ascended; if His body did not go down into Hades, yet really arose from the dead, and ascended into heaven, what remains, except to believe in the secret mystery, which is hidden from the world and the rulers of this age, and to confess that, ascending or descending, He is but One, one Jesus Christ for us, Son of God and Son of Man, God the Word and Man in the flesh, Who suffered, died, was buried, rose again, was received into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God: Who possesses in His one single self, according to the Divine Plan and nature, in the form of God and in the form of a servant, the Human and Divine without separation or division.

On the Trinity (Hilary of Poitiers) Book XI No. 4242. Does He not reveal to His Apostles the Dispensation of this glory by the express signification of the words, Now is the Son of Man glorified, and God is glorified in Him. If God has been glorified in Him, God has glorified Him in Himself, and straightway has He glorified Him. In the words, Now is the Son of Man honoured, and God is honoured in Him, we have first the glory of the Son of Man, then the glory of God in the Son of Man. So there is first signified the glory of the body, which it borrows from its association with the divine nature: and then follows the promotion to a fuller glory derived from an addition to the glory of the body. If God has been honoured in Him, God has honoured Him in Himself, and straightway has God honoured Him. God has glorified Him in Himself, because He has already been glorified in Him. God was glorified in Him: this refers to the glory of the body, for by this glory is expressed in a human body the glory of God, in the glory of the Son of Man is seen the divine glory. God was glorified in Him, and therefore has God glorified Him in Himself: that is, by His promotion to the Godhead, whose glory was increased in Him, God has glorified Him in Himself. Already before this He was reigning in the glory which springs from the divine glory: from henceforth, however, He is Himself to pass into the divine glory. God has glorified Him in Himself: that is, in that nature by which God is what He is. That God may be all in all: that His whole being, leaving behind the Dispensation by which He is man, may be eternally transformed into divinity. Nor is the time of this hidden from us: And God has glorified Him in Himself, and straightway has He glorified Him. At the moment when Judas arose to betray Him, He signified as present the glory which He would obtain after His Passion through the Resurrection…[snip for length

Once again, you are using quotations that do not apply. I already said and believe that the Second Person of the Trinity walked the earth physicaly as Jesus Christ, descended into Hell, during the forty days between the Resurrection and the Ascension, and is now physically at the right hand of the Father. These, in my opinion, are the only examples of the physical modes of the Second Person’s presence in the world. And of course, even in his physical mode of presence, he is still united to the Father and the Holy Spirit.

But the physical contact of the Second Person with the universe is limited to these instances. And except for these instances, the governance of the world and the graces and inspirations we receive, are through the spiritual action of the Trinity, which includes the spiritual mode of presence the Second Person.

Our Lord even told the Apostles, " And a little while I will be with you, but I will send you the Advocate." And Who came at Penticost? The Advocate. Who comes to us in Baptism, Confirmation, Holy Orders, Marriage, Extreme Unction, Penance? The Holy Spirit, in conjunction with the Father and the Second Person, in his spiritual mode of presence or existence. But in Communion we receive the Second Person in the glorified, physical mode of presence of the Person of Jesus Christ.

So when it comes to the governance of the universe and presence of God in each substance, sustaining each in existence and guiding it to its proper end, we are speaking of the actual presence and activity of the Trinity, the Father, the Holy Spirit, and the Son, in his spiritual mode of presence, not the Son in his physical mode of presence.

If you wish to hold otherwise I’m sure it is licit to do so, since The Church has not said othewise. But for me, I cannot believe Jesus Christ is phisically in me as I write. I do believe, however, that the Second Person is present in his spiritual mode of presence, along with the Father and the Holy Spirit. And at this very moment, he is also present in his glorified, physical mode of existence in the Person of Jesus Christ in heaven.

Linus2nd

 

[Vico]

Once again, you are using quotations that do not apply. I already said and believe that the Second Person of the Trinity walked the earth physicaly as Jesus Christ, descended into Hell, during the forty days between the Resurrection and the Ascension, and is now physically at the right hand of the Father. These, in my opinion, are the only examples of the physical modes of the Second Person’s presence in the world. And of course, even in his physical mode of presence, he is still united to the Father and the Holy Spirit.

But the physical contact of the Second Person with the universe is limited to these instances. And except for these instances, the governance of the world and the graces and inspirations we receive, are through the spiritual action of the Trinity, which includes the spiritual mode of presence the Second Person.

Our Lord even told the Apostles, " And a little while I will be with you, but I will send you the Advocate." And Who came at Penticost? The Advocate. Who comes to us in Baptism, Confirmation, Holy Orders, Marriage, Extreme Unction, Penance? The Holy Spirit, in conjunction with the Father and the Second Person, in his spiritual mode of presence or existence. But in Communion we receive the Second Person in the glorified, physical mode of presence of the Person of Jesus Christ.

So when it comes to the governance of the universe and presence of God in each substance, sustaining each in existence and guiding it to its proper end, we are speaking of the actual presence and activity of the Trinity, the Father, the Holy Spirit, and the Son, in his spiritual mode of presence, not the Son in his physical mode of presence.

If you wish to hold otherwise I’m sure it is licit to do so, since The Church has not said othewise. But for me, I cannot believe Jesus Christ is phisically in me as I write. I do believe, however, that the Second Person is present in his spiritual mode of presence, along with the Father and the Holy Spirit. And at this very moment, he is also present in his glorified, physical mode of existence in the Person of Jesus Christ in heaven.

Linus2nd

The quotations are additional points to what I frist wrote. The first is shown below on the teaching of St. Hilary an are exactly on topic, which you do not comment specifically on, from that post.

I understand your opinion. Don’t worry about a reply. But I do have something to post from the Doctor of the Church, St. Hilary of Poitiers taught much on the topic of physicality.

• The non-material soul physically resides in the body.
• Christ’s body, both incarnate and glorified states, is physical.
• Humans are physically in the glorified body of Christ.
• Heaven can contain: Father, Son, Holy Spirit, angels, the faithful (in the glorified body of the Son).

This is consistent with Stoic philosophy of mixing of materials in the same physical space.