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Faith101
Guest
hawk
Muslims ask God to guide them to the straight path AT LEAST 17 times a day, every day…for their entire lives.
What other religion requires that?
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Muslims ask God to guide them to the straight path AT LEAST 17 times a day, every day…for their entire lives.
What other religion requires that?
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hawk
Guest
Actually,
The term “son of god” doesnt refer to an anthropological relationship.
It mirrors the covenant of Allah with Ibraheem through Ishaak.
Allah incarnates to demonstrate to us the great love He has for us.
This is what all the messainic verses talk about.
When I was muslim, I was so comfortable, thinking, I know all I need to know. These Christians have made up such complicated theology. I was confident in my beliefs.
I began to talk to a priest, as freinds. It took me an entire year of arguing and discussing, in searched the internet to support my beliefs, but in the end I had to admit that the Truth is in the Bible.
I used to read the Bible in that year, I was never able to believe it.
But now I began to realise that Christians were not making up what they believed, they were actually telling the Truth.
It started making perfect sense, and weirdly islam stopped making sense.
I stopped going to jummah, and then I came to the conclusion that the only way forward was to convert.
I was ashamed, and I could not tell anyone.
I would hide and go to church.
But then I told my fiancé, she was horrified at first, but she did not break the engagement, alhamdulillah.
She has now began to see the Truth too, I pray hard that she accept Christ in her life, and I would ask all my Christian brothers to say a little prayer that Christ enter her heart as He has entered ours, and turn her to Him.
Now i would like to give dawah to muslims, but i get scared, since it would expose me, yet at the same time I realise that I must, if one tastes the sweetest Truth, one needs to spread the good news.
This is what this thread is about, to create teach people the questions a muslim will ask, and how to deal with them from an islamic perspective.
Wa’salam
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hawk
Guest
Very good, now open your heart to the truth.
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Faith101
Guest
i cant imagine what would lead someone to leave Islam for anything else. subhanAllah, He guides who He wills and He allows who He wills to go astray.
May God guide you
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Ghosty
Guest
Why do Muslims have such a difficult time understanding what is meant by Son of God when refering to Jesus? They always go back to “God has no need of a Son”, but I don’t understand that statement at all.
What exactly do Muslims think Christians mean when they say Son of God? Reading the Quran it seems obvious that Mohammed did not have the faintest understanding of Christian theology, as it was very well developed by the time he was around, and nothing he says actually applies to Christian beliefs of any time period.
When Christians refer to Jesus as the “Son of God” we are not in any way talking about a biological child, or even of any kind of child. When we say “begotten” we are doing that to explicitly indicate that we aren’t talking about ANY kind of “child” in the traditional sense. We call Jesus, Logos, the Word, Son of God because that’s what God calls Himself. It means that this is God coming forth and manifesting as a Word and Idea. Father means God is the principle of Creation, and all things come from Him. Holy Spirit (Literally Holy Breath) is God touching and entering us.
So, in short, God the Father is God Creating, God the Son is God sharing His mind with us, and God the Holy Spirit is God breathing His life and love into us. It’s really not overly complicated at all.
What exactly do Muslims think Christians mean when they say Son of God? Reading the Quran it seems obvious that Mohammed did not have the faintest understanding of Christian theology, as it was very well developed by the time he was around, and nothing he says actually applies to Christian beliefs of any time period.
When Christians refer to Jesus as the “Son of God” we are not in any way talking about a biological child, or even of any kind of child. When we say “begotten” we are doing that to explicitly indicate that we aren’t talking about ANY kind of “child” in the traditional sense. We call Jesus, Logos, the Word, Son of God because that’s what God calls Himself. It means that this is God coming forth and manifesting as a Word and Idea. Father means God is the principle of Creation, and all things come from Him. Holy Spirit (Literally Holy Breath) is God touching and entering us.
So, in short, God the Father is God Creating, God the Son is God sharing His mind with us, and God the Holy Spirit is God breathing His life and love into us. It’s really not overly complicated at all.
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Maranatha
Guest
That was beautiful. Truth is beauty.
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Faith101
Guest
You believe in one God. You believe that Jesus is divine, god and son of god. But Jesus talks to God, asks God for things, and even claims not to know some information about thigns (when the day of judgment is, that a tree wasnt bearing fruit, etc).
As a muslim, i am trying to reconcile YOUR claim in believing in one God, with the claim that Jesus is god’s son. What you are saying now is that Jesus is really god in the flesh. First thing that comes to mind is “then why didnt he know certain things” then you will tell me “because he emptied himself of that knowledge” then i will think “where did that knowledge go?, who was ruling the world as Jesus peace be upon him was supposedly being punished and killed?” then you will say “God, the father”
then it just gets confusing. i can understand you believing that jesus is the son of god. Many cultures/religions have ascribed divinity to certain human beings.
I can understand you believing the Jesus is god. Many people before you have done that as well
I can understand you believe in a triune godhead. Hindus believe in a 1000 godhead.
But i can not understand how you want to believe in ALL of these things (jesus as god, son of god, jesus one of 3) AND that jesus is god in the flesh…especially when i read verses from the bible where jesus is talking and praying to God…depending on God’s will and not his own.
I think the best explanation of trinity/son of god concept is “its a mystery, we just have to believe” because otherwise it really doesnt make much sense. No offence, ofcourse
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Faith101
Guest
May Allah always keep my heart open to the truth and never let my ignorance extinguish that light. ameen
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Ghosty
Guest
Faith101: Your questions are very important, deep, and valuable. I’ll do my best to answer them.
First off, you are very correct that Jesus speaks of the Father in the third-person, as if He was just another human being. He ALSO says, however, in Matthew 28:19:
When you think of yourself, in your mind, don’t you view yourself? Can’t you imagine yourself in the third-person, describing your attributes, even having internal conversations? (“Now, Faith101, you know better than that!”) When you think of yourself, or even have internal dialogue, do you become a seperate being? Of course not, and neither does God. The Son is God’s realization of Himself, His eternal understanding of His own Divinity. Being perfectly knowledgable, He has a perfect self-image. This self-image is not seperate, it’s not created because God is eternal and eternally self-knowing. The Son is a description of God knowing God. So, when God comes to Earth, it is the Son, and not the Father, because it is God coming forth from God. When Jesus speaks to the Father, we are witnessing the internal dialogue of God, not two seperate beings communicating.
As for when Jesus says “by your will, not mine”, that refers to the HUMAN will of Jesus, not a seperate being. Jesus’ human will, or you might call it the base nature of humanity that desires to survive at all costs, was submitting to the Divine will that demanded that Jesus die and Rise. In fact, we can say the exact same thing when we do a holy thing that might demand we die, when we become martyrs. Our human nature is submitted to our higher mind; although we get nervous, and our mind screams that we should get out of the trouble, we know that we are doing a holy thing, and we do it. Since God had a human form and body, He felt that aspect of humanity, but perfectly brought it in line with His Divine Will. That is what you are reading with those sayings.
As for Jesus not knowing things that God should know, that’s more a matter of Jesus not being sent to reveal certain things. God deposited everything to be revealed into the physical, human brain of Jesus, so that He could speak it through his physical, human mouth. For example, when you type in a website and hit enter when using a web-browser, it sends you to a website. Now open a typing program and do the same. Does it send you to a website? No, because it doesn’t “know” how to do it. But it’s the SAME computer, and it JUST did it! The computer knows how to send you to a website, but now it isn’t doing it even though you’ve done the exact same thing. That is similar to how it is with Jesus as a man, and the Son as God.
First off, you are very correct that Jesus speaks of the Father in the third-person, as if He was just another human being. He ALSO says, however, in Matthew 28:19:
Notice it says name, singular, and not names? That’s very important, and a valuable insight. So Jesus is the Son, but Son is part of the name of God. We also know that Jesus is the Word of God, as described in the opening of John. Can we think of any things that we can relate all of these things to? If you try, I think you can.
When you think of yourself, in your mind, don’t you view yourself? Can’t you imagine yourself in the third-person, describing your attributes, even having internal conversations? (“Now, Faith101, you know better than that!”) When you think of yourself, or even have internal dialogue, do you become a seperate being? Of course not, and neither does God. The Son is God’s realization of Himself, His eternal understanding of His own Divinity. Being perfectly knowledgable, He has a perfect self-image. This self-image is not seperate, it’s not created because God is eternal and eternally self-knowing. The Son is a description of God knowing God. So, when God comes to Earth, it is the Son, and not the Father, because it is God coming forth from God. When Jesus speaks to the Father, we are witnessing the internal dialogue of God, not two seperate beings communicating.
As for when Jesus says “by your will, not mine”, that refers to the HUMAN will of Jesus, not a seperate being. Jesus’ human will, or you might call it the base nature of humanity that desires to survive at all costs, was submitting to the Divine will that demanded that Jesus die and Rise. In fact, we can say the exact same thing when we do a holy thing that might demand we die, when we become martyrs. Our human nature is submitted to our higher mind; although we get nervous, and our mind screams that we should get out of the trouble, we know that we are doing a holy thing, and we do it. Since God had a human form and body, He felt that aspect of humanity, but perfectly brought it in line with His Divine Will. That is what you are reading with those sayings.
As for Jesus not knowing things that God should know, that’s more a matter of Jesus not being sent to reveal certain things. God deposited everything to be revealed into the physical, human brain of Jesus, so that He could speak it through his physical, human mouth. For example, when you type in a website and hit enter when using a web-browser, it sends you to a website. Now open a typing program and do the same. Does it send you to a website? No, because it doesn’t “know” how to do it. But it’s the SAME computer, and it JUST did it! The computer knows how to send you to a website, but now it isn’t doing it even though you’ve done the exact same thing. That is similar to how it is with Jesus as a man, and the Son as God.
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Faith101
Guest
First off, i have to say you have done a beautiful job at trying to explain. I sincerely appreciate it and you will be in my prayers
But i dont agree. I feel it is as if this concept has been presented to you (Jesus second person in a triune godhead) and then you are forced to go into the Bible and make every verse fit along with that. From an outsiders (non-Christian) point of view…it does not fit…and it does not make sense.
If Jesus peace be upon him was sent on this earth to wilingly die for you and me and all of mankind, than there is no internal struggle. I dont believe that God can internally struggle. Thats what we mere humans do. God is above that.
This is your interpretation. Jesus is praying to God, asking him if it be HIS (God’s) will let this cup pass from me. It’s one will against the other. ITs EXACTLY what we Muslims are told to do, to do God’s will and be content with it…it is what makes us human and not god.
Also, when you say “human will of Jesus” automatically this separates him from God. God is not in any way shape or form human or mortal…and if any part of him is…than all of him is.
I view that as the human’s internal struggle, which in arabic translates as Jihad.
i agree
You believe that Jesus is god, in a triune godhead…all are equal…and can not be separated. If you just step back and actually try to understand what your saying…it really doesnt fit with that concept at all.
Jesus peace be upon him was a messenger from God. That is why he depends on God’s will, that is way he prays to God, that is why he doesnt know certain things, that is why he has internal struggles, that is why he experiences fear…He doesnt do all these things to “get to know how we feel.”
Thanks for the explanation. I sincerely encourage everyone, from all religions, to step back and actually look at the concepts their advocating from a different perspective. If your raised with the concept, i can understand how you can just acept it. But i cant understand how you can accept it after you question it unless ofcourse you say “its a mystery, we have to believe”
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Ghosty
Guest
On the contrary, I was not raised Christian at all. I was an atheist to the extreme. I came to this belief as an outsider coming into the Church. In fact, the idea of God with no recognition of self, as you seem to be arguing for, was simply too much for me to swallow. I studied Islam first, before I studied Christianity.
Who said anything about an internal struggle? The Son is not in any kind of struggle with the Father. In fact, Jesus says “He who has seen me has seen the Father”.
It’s not my interpretation. It was the interpretation of the Apostles and their Successors, handed down and solidified long before Mohammed was even born. As for it causing seperation, this is not the case. The human will, the biological drive, is inherent to the human form. No healthy human being has an inate biological desire to die. Furthermore, you must understand that the Son is not dependant upon His human body, unlike us. By this I mean that the Son didn’t come into existance when the body of Jesus was conceived. The Son is eternal, and there is no conflict between the Son and the Father. In fact, even in that passage there is no conflict being described, because the human will is submitting to the Divine. If Jesus had said “I’m not going to do it”, that would be conflict. Rather, Jesus is indicating that there is no conflict between the human and the Divine will, despite the fact that the desires of the Divine will are contrary to the natural impulses of the human will.
And Jesus was God with a human body. Everything that applies as a rule to humanity applies to Jesus. Everything that applies to God as a rule also applies to Jesus. There is no reason to believe, however, that internal struggle is the norm for humanity.
On the contrary, reread what I said. The computer is God, and all the knowledge is present in God at all times. In computer terms, all of the programs and functions are present in it regardless of what you’re running. Yet I can’t access certain information from certain programs, even though the computer is not seperated from itself. So it is with the Son when He became Jesus. God came forth to us with a certain purpose, and while He never ceased being God, the Son was geared at that time towards delivering a specific blessing and message, and so that is what was put into the human mind of Jesus. Likewise, the computer has not forgotten how to access the internet when you open Microsoft Word, but it will not because that is not what Microsoft Word is “sent” to do. It’s the same computer, it still knows Internet Explorer, it still DOES Internet Explorer, perhaps in on the same screen at the same time, but you still won’t access the internet from Microsoft Word.
Again, I wasn’t raised with this concept at all. Quite the opposite. I studied many faiths, including yours, before I found Catholicism. Not only is Catholicism logical, it has the most logical and complete understanding of a monotheistic deity I’ve ever encountered. Judaism is a very close second, but they have had no reason to explore the question as deeply as Catholics, so they leave a lot more up to “mystery”. Islam, on the other hand, presents, in my eyes, an overly simplistic understanding of single beings, one that doesn’t even mesh with what we know of the lowest life-forms, including humanity. I have a self image, I have internal dialogue, and none of that comes from any low-level nature, yet Islam denies the same quality for God, practically insisting through logic that God can’t know Himself. That is what I find illogical.
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Faith101
Guest
Since you have studied Islam…can you please describe Allah as the Muslims see Him.
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Ghosty
Guest
Wouldn’t that be your job as a Muslim? I will not pressume to speak from a Muslim perspective, espescially to Muslims. What I do know is that Muslims reject the concept of the Trinity, insisting on God being one, but I can’t fathom this because Catholics also insist that God is one. In my studies of Islam I never came to an understanding of how insisting that God is one is contrary to Trinitarian formulation, and I still haven’t. Muslims seem to believe that the Trinity somehow seperates God into three parts, which is not the case at all.
Basically, nothing that Muslims say positively about God (God is…) is contrary to what Catholics believe. The problem comes with Muslims saying negatives about God (God is not…), but those things they say God is not, when in reference to the Trinity, indicates a fundamental misunderstanding of the Trinitarian teaching. For this reason I don’t feel competant to speak on Muslim views of God.
Why don’t you explain how the Trinity, as I’ve described, is contrary to God being one, and we will work from there? This debate existed, and was settled, long before Mohammed was even born, so we have plenty to work with.
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Eetaq
Guest
@ Ghosty
The reason the trinity is unaccepted in Islam can immediately be seen when you describe the three parts of trinity.
Father
Son
Holy Ghost
In Islam it is clearly and constantly stated that God has fathered none, and has no sons.
Simple as that.
The reason the trinity is unaccepted in Islam can immediately be seen when you describe the three parts of trinity.
Father
Son
Holy Ghost
In Islam it is clearly and constantly stated that God has fathered none, and has no sons.
Simple as that.
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hawk
Guest
Eetaq said:
The Quran makes the same mistake that muslims do, we do not think of God in anthropoligical terms.
If that is anything to go by, the misunderstanding of our theology is a good enough reason to reject the Quran as the Truth.
However with verses like this its hard to not reject the Quran, since it basically says that men are superior to women.
YUSUFALI: Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband’s) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).
PICKTHAL: Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.
SHAKIR: Men are the maintainers of women** because Allah has made some of them to excel others** and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.
How can muslims believe this drivel is beyond me
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Ghosty
Guest
Eetaq said:
But that’s the problem right there. Christianity NEVER says that God fathered anyone, nor that He has any sons in the sense that a human father does. Muslims simply DO NOT LISTEN to what others, specifically Christians, are saying. We say Son because the language of the time of Jesus understood that Son could also mean “coming from” or “relating to”. You can read the Jewish Scriptures and see that Son is often used in that context.
Here’s another explaination of what the Son is, using His other name that perfectly describes Him: Word.
A word is a thought given sound. It is not merely sound, because sounds without thought are never words. So, a word is essentially a thought, meaning that the core essence of word is thought. A thought is from the mind, the source of thought is the mind. The mind is only thought, though, and without thought there can not be a mind. If you have a mind, you have thought, and if you have thought, you have mind. Therefore, thought is essentially mind, and mind is essentially thought. So, the thought is distinct in that we say it comes FROM the mind, but it is also essentially mind itself. We can’t say that mind comes FROM thought, because thought depends on an origin, but mind does not.
Now, if word is thought, and thought is mind, and mind requires thought to be a mind, they are all of the same essence even while being distinct. They are the same exact thing, while still being distinct. My word is my thought is my mind. You hear my word, you hear my mind, because my word IS my mind coming forth.
The Son of God means the exact same thing as Word of God. The Word of God (Son) is the thought coming forth from the Mind (Father), but remember that thought IS mind, and mind IS thought. The distinction is in relationship, since thought comes from mind and not the other way around. They are the same thing, but we must distinguish relation. Just like my words are my thoughts, my mind, wearing sound, Jesus is God’s Word wearing flesh. If God has a mind (Father), God MUST have a thought(Son)! You can’t have Father without Son, so Son (thought) is eternally God from the very “beginning”. The only reason we distinguish between Father and Son is the same reason we distinguish between mind and thought.
We don’t believe that God the Father had a little baby “god” named the Son, we believe that the Son represents the eternal, natural, and logical understanding that thought comes from mind, but mind requires thought. So we read in John:
Code:
1**In the beginning was the Word**, and **the Word was with God**, and **the Word was God.** 2He was with God in the beginning.
3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
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Eetaq
Guest
I understand that they are all one. However the fact still remains that God does not even use the term ‘son’ he uses the term ‘creation’
We are His ‘creations’.
And, more importantly, to address Hawk.
In Islam the man only has a responsibility to the women of his family, because men ARE stronger than women, and thus must work to sustain them.
It is a blessing to women to have the man work for their sustenance, it is not a blessing for men.
As one of the muslim women on this site so beautifully put it,
In Islam the woman is like the Roman emperor who lies on his back and is getting fed grapes all day, while the man is the one who is feeding her the grapes.
It is not Islam that oppresses women, it is Western Culture. By forcing the women to work in order to simply maintain the standard of living this society is accustomed to we have been raising disconnected children who are turning to drug usage and gangs more and more, even in affluent areas. If the woman wasn’t so strongly pressured to work than families would be much closer than they are now, and children would be raised by parents rather than TV and daycare.
However, should the woman choose to work in Islam, she can. And she can choose to keep all the money she earns in her job for herself, whereas the man has to fulfil the needs of his wife and kids with his money, before he fulfils his own needs. This is the beauty of Islam, do not try to lessen its brilliance.
We are His ‘creations’.
And, more importantly, to address Hawk.
In Islam the man only has a responsibility to the women of his family, because men ARE stronger than women, and thus must work to sustain them.
It is a blessing to women to have the man work for their sustenance, it is not a blessing for men.
As one of the muslim women on this site so beautifully put it,
In Islam the woman is like the Roman emperor who lies on his back and is getting fed grapes all day, while the man is the one who is feeding her the grapes.
It is not Islam that oppresses women, it is Western Culture. By forcing the women to work in order to simply maintain the standard of living this society is accustomed to we have been raising disconnected children who are turning to drug usage and gangs more and more, even in affluent areas. If the woman wasn’t so strongly pressured to work than families would be much closer than they are now, and children would be raised by parents rather than TV and daycare.
However, should the woman choose to work in Islam, she can. And she can choose to keep all the money she earns in her job for herself, whereas the man has to fulfil the needs of his wife and kids with his money, before he fulfils his own needs. This is the beauty of Islam, do not try to lessen its brilliance.
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hawk
Guest
The translation brother is “Excel”, not men are “stronger”
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Eetaq
Guest
No, brother, its stronger, we use the translation of yusuf Ali, no one else.
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hawk
Guest
convenient, I am sure Mr Yusuf Ali foresaw this problem and massaged his translation accordingly.
Did you notice how he brackets the word (strength)?
However there are enough ahadith to support the translation of the word as “excel”
Did you know that the Prophet(pbuh) said that “most of the people in hell are women” ?
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