Son of God

[selvaraj]

The Father declared Jesus to be His Son:

• “Thou art my son. This day have I begotten you.” (Hebrews 5:5; cp. Psalms 2:7)

Jesus himself claimed to be the Son of God:

• Luke 22:70; John 10:36; 19:7

The angel declared Jesus the Son of God:

• “And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and… that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.” (Luke 1:35)

Even demons confessed Jesus the Son of God:

• “And unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God.” (Mark 3:11; cp. Luke 4:41; 8:28)

In Christ,
selvaraj

 

[hawk]

Selvaraj,

Son of God, traditionally meant, “One who is close to God”

It never meant “Son of God” in the Christian sense, until Christ after His death and resurrection, redefined the term.

Amen

 

[Ghosty]

Eetaq: God uses the term Son ALL the time in Scripture. Just read Psalms some time, specifically Psalm 2. Your claim is simply false.

From Psalm 2:7

7"I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD:
He said to Me, 'You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.

 

[UnworthySoul]

Faith101:

begotten, made, created, god in human flesh, 100% god 100% man, whatever…doesnt matter. There is only One God and he is not in need of any son/daughter/mother/father. IT is HE we Muslims worship.

so simple

p.s. whats the point of this thread?

“What’s the point of this thread?”

Who do you think you are? This is, first and foremost, a CATHOLIC forum, NOT a Muslim one. There is a sub-forum for discussing Islam, but this remains a Catholic website. Please remember that.

 

[JP2Admirer]

hawk:

How does this make Jesus a god though?

Hawk, if you refer to the prophetic book of Daniel, you will see a prophecy of the “Son of Man.” (Dan. 7:13)

There are also Psalms and Isaiah refers to the Son of Man as well.

 

[hawk]

“What’s the point of this thread?”

Who do you think you are? This is, first and foremost, a CATHOLIC forum, NOT a Muslim one. There is a sub-forum for discussing Islam, but this remains a Catholic website. Please remember that.

Once again unworthy I urge you to restrain yourself from outbursts of this nature.
You have said your piece, if they do not accept it, then let it go.

Though I need not, I would take this opportunity to apologise to all muslims, you are the reason for the existence of this “sub-forum” and we appreciate your presence here.

 

[hawk]

JP2Admirer:

Hawk, if you refer to the prophetic book of Daniel, you will see a prophecy of the “Son of Man.” (Dan. 7:13)

There are also Psalms and Isaiah refers to the Son of Man as well.

At this point it is important to point out that Muslims consider any anthropomorphism of God to be an innovation of man.

“The Hypocrites, men and women, are alike: they enjoin evil, and forbid what is just, and tighten their purse’s strings. They have forgotten Allah: so He hath forgotten them. Verily the Hypocrites are rebellious and perverse.” S. 9:67

So taste (the evil of your deeds). Forasmuch as ye forgot the meeting of this your day, lo! We forget you. Taste the doom of immortality because of what ye used to do. S. 32:14
*
Contrast this with:
"Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? Yes, these may forget, yet I will not forget you!
*

But is forgetfulness an attribute of Allah?

Should we say that the omniscient is capable of forgetting?

Even more, Allah is described with hands and ears in the Quran.

So any muslim that makes this claim, must first deal with the anthropomorphisms in the Quran itself.

 

[Eetaq]

hawk:

At this point it is important to point out that Muslims consider any anthropomorphism of God to be an innovation of man.

“The Hypocrites, men and women, are alike: they enjoin evil, and forbid what is just, and tighten their purse’s strings. They have forgotten Allah: so He hath forgotten them. Verily the Hypocrites are rebellious and perverse.” S. 9:67

So taste (the evil of your deeds). Forasmuch as ye forgot the meeting of this your day, lo! We forget you. Taste the doom of immortality because of what ye used to do. S. 32:14
*
Contrast this with:
"Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? Yes, these may forget, yet I will not forget you!
*

But is forgetfulness an attribute of Allah?

Should we say that the omniscient is capable of forgetting?

Even more, Allah is described with hands and ears in the Quran.

So any muslim that makes this claim, must first deal with the anthropomorphisms in the Quran itself.

When the qur’an says that Allah will forget you it means intentionally. Allah is mindful of all of our hardships and needs, and continually sustains them, however once he forgets you then you will be on your own.

 

[Faith101]

Basically, nothing that Muslims say positively about God (God is…) is contrary to what Catholics believe. The problem comes with Muslims saying negatives about God (God is not…), but those things they say God is not, when in reference to the Trinity, indicates a fundamental misunderstanding of the Trinitarian teaching. For this reason I don’t feel competant to speak on Muslim views of God.

You say you rejected the Muslims perspective of God. I thought you had done research and based that rejection on knowledge. But instead you have based it on “the trinity has to be right, therefore muslims are wrong.” There are religions in the world that, while claiming monotheism, have “divided” (for lack of a better word) God into several different parts. They claim what you claim…why then do you accept 3 in 1 and deny say 10 in 1?

Why don’t you explain how the Trinity, as I’ve described, is contrary to God being one, and we will work from there? This debate existed, and was settled, long before Mohammed was even born, so we have plenty to work with.

The debate has not been settled, even among the Christians themselves. Not only that, but the MAJORITY of Christians can not begin to understand let alone explain the trinity. Several people on this forum, after long “explanations” have ended up saying “its a mystery, you have to believe” and thats fine if your comfortable with that.

God is ONE. One in number, one in uniqueness (no one is like Him). God can do ANYTHING, but He does NOT do what is not befitting to His majesty. Having a daughter does not befitt His majesty…EVerything in the heavens and the earth is HIS. He doesnt need to beget…and neither is He begotten.

He exits as s self-sufficient, independent being. We are dependent on Him.

God in human flesh…being tortured by His slaves, and even being “killed”. ANd for what? For YOUR sins, the ones that you didnt even get a chance to make b/c you werent even born. No, God is the most Merciful, He doenst need to put us through this guilt trip of “Jesus Loves you, he even DIED FOR YOU.”

He is all-knowing, and you cant compare his knoweldge to a computer program. God knows everything at ALL times, all knowledge of the past and present rest with Him.

The idea is that the concept of the trinity and all that goes with it, not only defies the idea of one God, but it goes furthter than that to take away some of his attributes.

I can not accept. I worship the One who NO ONE can harm, not you not me and certaintly not the children of Israel at the tme of Jesus Christ.

Allah. There is no god but He,-the Living, the Self-subsisting, Eternal. No slumber can seize Him nor sleep. His are all things in the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth? He knoweth what (appeareth to His creatures as) before or after or behind them.** Nor shall they compass aught of His knowledge except as He willeth**. His Throne doth extend over the heavens and the earth, and He feeleth no fatigue in guarding and preserving them for **He is the Most High, the Supreme ** (in glory). (Chapter #2, Verse #255

They say: “(Allah) hath begotten a son” :Glory be to Him.-Nay, to Him belongs all that is in the heavens and on earth: everything renders worship to Him. (Chapter #2, Verse #116)

p.s. sorry for the late reply, i was unable to sign on to this forum due to technical difficulties…seems everyone has been active here, so i guess its just me

 

[Faith101]

YUSUFALI: Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband’s) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).
PICKTHAL: Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.
SHAKIR: Men are the maintainers of women** because Allah has made some of them to excel others** and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.

i love your bolding. hmm. Yusuf Ali is probably the most well accepted translation of the meanings of the Quran…and i think his translation goes well with the arabic meaning

Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means.

I think its become played out to say “men and women are completly equal”…they are not. No matter what you do, you can not give birth…so should i then look down upon you? No. I should understand that this is outside of your capacity. God created us different, but from His mercy, assigned us roles that fit our nature…while at the same time maintaining the fact that to HIM, the best among us are the one who have the most piety…male or female.

Whoever works righteousness, man or woman, and has Faith, verily, to him will We give a new Life, a life that is good and pure and We will bestow on such their reward according to the best of their actions. (Quran 16:97)

How can muslims believe this drivel is beyond me

Say: “I am forbidden to worship those - others than Allah - whom ye call upon.” Say: “I will not follow your wain desires: If I did, I would stray from the path, and be not of the company of those who receive guidance.” ( Quran 6:56)

 

[Ghosty]

You say you rejected the Muslims perspective of God. I thought you had done research and based that rejection on knowledge. But instead you have based it on “the trinity has to be right, therefore muslims are wrong.” There are religions in the world that, while claiming monotheism, have “divided” (for lack of a better word) God into several different parts. They claim what you claim…why then do you accept 3 in 1 and deny say 10 in 1?

No, I reject Islam because the Quran is said to be the true word of God, yet it lacks knowledge of the Christian teachings it speaks against. It makes claims about Christian and Jewish beliefs which are false claims, and therefore either God does not know what these people believe, or the Quran is not the word of God. My rejection of Islam had nothing to do with the “oneness” of God, nor does my accepting Christianity have anything to do with the Trinity.

I believe in the Trinity because the Catholic Church, which has demonstrated itself in my eyes to be true, teaches it and explains God that way without contradicting God being One. I didn’t come up with the Trinity, and then look for a religion that fit it. I found the Truth, and follow what it says.

The debate has not been settled, even among the Christians themselves. Not only that, but the MAJORITY of Christians can not begin to understand let alone explain the trinity. Several people on this forum, after long “explanations” have ended up saying “its a mystery, you have to believe” and thats fine if your comfortable with that.

Yes, the debate HAS been settled. God is a Trinity, and it can be explained to some extent how and why. You are misunderstanding what “mystery” means in this context. A mystery is an idea that can be explored, but never fully answered. We can know truths, absolute truths, without knowing all of the truths about the mystery. The truths we have listed are the truths that have absolutely been settled through Councils, Scripture, and Dogmatic Definition.

God is ONE. One in number, one in uniqueness (no one is like Him). God can do ANYTHING, but He does NOT do what is not befitting to His majesty. Having a daughter does not befitt His majesty…EVerything in the heavens and the earth is HIS. He doesnt need to beget…and neither is He begotten.

I agree with everything here except the part about begetting. Please reread my posts and understand that begetting does NOT MEAN having children in the context of God. When a mind makes thought, we say it “begets” thought, even though the mind IS thought. You need to address what I’ve written before you continue expounding on this point over and over again.

He exits as s self-sufficient, independent being. We are dependent on Him.

Yes, but doesn’t He have a mind? Doesn’t He have thought? If He has a mind, then He MUST beget thought. If He does not have a mind, then you must explain where you believe the Quran comes from, since God does not think. If God does think, then you must accept that His thoughts come from the mind.

God in human flesh…being tortured by His slaves, and even being “killed”. ANd for what? For YOUR sins, the ones that you didnt even get a chance to make b/c you werent even born. No, God is the most Merciful, He doenst need to put us through this guilt trip of “Jesus Loves you, he even DIED FOR YOU.”

Clearly you don’t understand the Mystery of the Sacrifice, but I will not address that right now because it’s not the issue we’re discussing, and you haven’t addressed that yet. When we are done with the Trinity, we will move on to the Incarnation and Sacrifice.

The idea is that the concept of the trinity and all that goes with it, not only defies the idea of one God, but it goes furthter than that to take away some of his attributes.

So you don’t believe God has a mind? You don’t believe God has thoughts? Please read my posts and explain to me, based on what I wrote, how it contradicts One God. Your quote suggests that God has a mind and thought, so why don’t you address those things? When you do that, we can continue and see what we find in our discussion.

 

[Faith101]

I believe in the Trinity because the Catholic Church, which has demonstrated itself in my eyes to be true, teaches it and explains God that way without contradicting God being One. I didn’t come up with the Trinity, and then look for a religion that fit it. I found the Truth, and follow what it says.

the entire religion is based on the trinity. What did you find in Catholicism that made you believe and then accept everything in it if it wasnt the FOUNDATION of their beliefs. That doesnt make sense that you would believe in something without FIRST believing and accepting its foundation…ie trinity, original sin, scapegoat theory.

Yes, but doesn’t He have a mind? Doesn’t He have thought? If He has a mind, then He MUST beget thought. If He does not have a mind, then you must explain where you believe the Quran comes from, since God does not think. If God does think, then you must accept that His thoughts come from the mind.

Why is there a need to bring God down to our level. Does God have a hand? Does He have eyes? are they blue? We dont know how God looks or what he is physically made up of. You have a mind, b/c God created it to make you think and understand. So you can look around and realize that this entire world did not just come out of nothing. Its a CREATION.

Why is there a need to feel that God has to submit to his creation rules. Hes not like us!

Clearly you don’t understand the Mystery of the Sacrifice, but I will not address that right now because it’s not the issue we’re discussing, and you haven’t addressed that yet. When we are done with the Trinity, we will move on to the Incarnation and Sacrifice.

the “mystery of sacrifice” When you start it, please address the point of believing in an all powerful god that was harmed and killed by a bunch of his own slaves.

So you don’t believe God has a mind? You don’t believe God has thoughts? Please read my posts and explain to me, based on what I wrote, how it contradicts One God. Your quote suggests that God has a mind and thought, so why don’t you address those things? When you do that, we can continue and see what we find in our discussion.

Again, God is not like us. We are HIS creation. He gave us a brain for whatever purpose He wills. HE causees us to think for whatever purpose He wills. God is not like us, so you can go ahead and assume this whole “mind and thought” and all that. It doesnt go. And Muslims in general are not in to going through to find out exactly what God is or is not, outside of the things that He has revealed to us

 

[Ghosty]

the entire religion is based on the trinity. What did you find in Catholicism that made you believe and then accept everything in it if it wasnt the FOUNDATION of their beliefs. That doesnt make sense that you would believe in something without FIRST believing and accepting its foundation…ie trinity, original sin, scapegoat theory.

No, the entire religion is based on the Covenant of Abraham, the promise to Moses, and the hope of the Messiah realized. Everything you list is revelation that came AFTER the fullfilment of the Messiah, so it’s hardly part of the foundation in the sense you describe. That is not the issue of the thread, however.

Why is there a need to bring God down to our level. Does God have a hand? Does He have eyes? are they blue? We dont know how God looks or what he is physically made up of. You have a mind, b/c God created it to make you think and understand. So you can look around and realize that this entire world did not just come out of nothing. Its a CREATION.

Who said anything about bringing God down to our level? On the contrary, Genesis explicitly states that WE are made in the image of God. This doesn’t mean that all our attributes are equal to God’s, but it does mean that we can see God somewhat by looking at people. We get hints about WHAT to look at by reading Scripture, and seeing that God thinks and God feels, though He doesn’t have a physical body (barring the Incarnation). So, answer the question: Does God think or have thoughts? I’m not assuming anything. I’m going off of what YOU quoted as well:

He knoweth what (appeareth to His creatures as) before or after or behind them.** Nor shall they compass aught of His knowledge except as He willeth**.

If He knows, does He have a mind? I’m NOT talking about a physical brain, but of a mind. Better yet, do you believe that the Quran is the word of God? Please answer honestly.

Keep in mind that these are not questions that the Church created before it accepted the Trinity, but afterwards. We are not, and have never been, interested in telling the world what attributes God has. God told us, and we’ve simply tried to understand how it all works.

 

[Faith101]

Ghosty:

No, the entire religion is based on the Covenant of Abraham, the promise to Moses, and the hope of the Messiah realized. Everything you list is revelation that came AFTER the fullfilment of the Messiah, so it’s hardly part of the foundation in the sense you describe. That is not the issue of the thread, however.

Who said anything about bringing God down to our level? On the contrary, Genesis explicitly states that WE are made in the image of God. This doesn’t mean that all our attributes are equal to God’s, but it does mean that we can see God somewhat by looking at people. We get hints about WHAT to look at by reading Scripture, and seeing that God thinks and God feels, though He doesn’t have a physical body (barring the Incarnation). So, answer the question: Does God think or have thoughts? I’m not assuming anything. I’m going off of what YOU quoted as well:

If He knows, does He have a mind? I’m NOT talking about a physical brain, but of a mind. Better yet, do you believe that the Quran is the word of God? Please answer honestly.

What i am telling is what we know as muslim is simply this GOD KNOWS. We dont go in to ponder “well, how exactly does God know? Does He have a mind?” Similar to how we know that God sees but we dont ask “well, does God have eyes like us” B/c this is all things outside of our knowledge and no matter what you will come up with, its all conjecture.

God is the author of the Quran, yes. Please read the paragraph above. IF you feel that you need to analyze the very minute details of God of which you really have no business…than go right ahead. But I will not be joining you.

 

[Ghosty]

God is the author of the Quran, yes. Please read the paragraph above. IF you feel that you need to analyze the very minute details of God of which you really have no business…than go right ahead. But I will not be joining you.

In all fairness, I am not contemplating things that God has not revealed to me. I am contemplating only what Scripture, including the Quran, has revealed.

For example, God is the “author” of the Quran, meaning the Quran is the word of God. A word is a thought given form. In this case, the Quran is the thought of God given the form of an Arabic text. A thought is nothing but the product of a mind. Thoughts don’t just “happen”, they have an originator that we call a mind. A mind, however, is nothing but thought. There is no such thing as a mind that has no thought, because a mind is defined as something that thinks (has thoughts). So, a mind is thought, and a thought is mind. A word is simply a thought taking on a tangible form, whether written (as in my post here) or spoken.

The Quran is the word of God, as you yourself have said, which means it’s a thought, which means it comes from a mind. Wouldn’t you say this is logical?

 

[Faith101]

Ghosty:

In all fairness, I am not contemplating things that God has not revealed to me. I am contemplating only what Scripture, including the Quran, has revealed.

For example, God is the “author” of the Quran, meaning the Quran is the word of God. A word is a thought given form. In this case, the Quran is the thought of God given the form of an Arabic text. A thought is nothing but the product of a mind. Thoughts don’t just “happen”, they have an originator that we call a mind. A mind, however, is nothing but thought. There is no such thing as a mind that has no thought, because a mind is defined as something that thinks (has thoughts). So, a mind is thought, and a thought is mind. A word is simply a thought taking on a tangible form, whether written (as in my post here) or spoken.

The Quran is the word of God, as you yourself have said, which means it’s a thought, which means it comes from a mind. Wouldn’t you say this is logical?

You are doing it again!! Reread what you are writing…it is EXACTLY like saying “God can see everything…so that means that God has eyes…now eyes are blah blah blah” this kind of stuff really does get someone in trouble. Its none of my business and it is none of yours. Again, you choose to walk that path, you are walking alone…i know better where my limiited knowledge will lead me.

What is logical is that God does not beget and nor is He begotten. God does not have a mother and he does not have a daughter. he is ONE…soooo simple, yet the devil wants to complicate things for us until we follow him into darkness. Lets not let him do that.

 

[Ghosty]

You are doing it again!! Reread what you are writing…it is EXACTLY like saying “God can see everything…so that means that God has eyes…now eyes are blah blah blah”

No, this is not at all the same thing, because seeing is not limited to eyes, so using “God sees all” to indicate that God has eyes would be a fallacy. When we dream, for example, we see many things even though our eyes are closed. Sight, by definition, is not limited to eyes. Thought, however, is by definition an aspect of mind. There is no such thing as thoughts without mind. Likewise, words are by definition thoughts. Words don’t “happen” without a thought attached to them. They can take the shape of sound, or image, but if you have an image without thought you don’t have a word, but just a picture, and if you have a sound without thought, you only have a noise.

So, if God is the author of the words of Quran, then God MUST think the Quran, because words can only exist by thought. And, if God thinks the Quran, then God MUST have a mind, because thoughts do not exist without mind.

This is not making up attributes of God at all. God Himself says He has Knowledge, according to you. What does knowledge mean? God Himself says He has words. What do words mean? If you can’t define logically what a word is, then you can’t even read the Quran. At this point you would be avoiding God rather than following His words.

What is logical is that God does not beget and nor is He begotten. God does not have a mother and he does not have a daughter. he is ONE…soooo simple, yet the devil wants to complicate things for us until we follow him into darkness. Lets not let him do that.

You obviously don’t understand what beget means, because it’s been stated many times and you ignore it. Learn what beget means, or stop using this example. What you are saying is meaningless in this conversation. I’m not saying this to be mean, but to point out that you are arguing with yourself and no one else when you say these things. You keep arguing about God having kids, and NOBODY in this thread is talking about God having kids except you.

 

[StMarkEofE]

deb1:

Read through John, especially the first chapter. It says that He was with God and the whole world was made by Him.( I am paraphraizing) Adam was not with God at the time of creation. Also, in Luke the Holy SPirit came on Mary and impregnated her even though she hadn’t ‘known’ a man.

Some logic is called for here. Can we all agree that Muslims, Jews, and Christians hold the Covenant (Old Testament) in it highest regard? If so there is a passage in the very beginning Genesis which states very clearly: Then God said let US make man in OUR image, in OUR likeness, and let them rule over the fish…" Gen 1:26

Alright so far? Now who is the “US” God is referring to? It certainly cannot be the Angels since they possess no creative powers. The are God’s servers and subject to Him. And there wasnt any spirit other that what is already created per Genesis. God in his infinite wisdom allowed us to “see” some of the mystery of the Trinity by this passage. The “US” is at the very least God Father and the Word (Christ incarnate).

StMarkEofE

 

[Faith101]

Ghosty:

No, this is not at all the same thing, because seeing is not limited to eyes, so using “God sees all” to indicate that God has eyes would be a fallacy. When we dream, for example, we see many things even though our eyes are closed. Sight, by definition, is not limited to eyes. Thought, however, is by definition an aspect of mind. There is no such thing as thoughts without mind. Likewise, words are by definition thoughts. Words don’t “happen” without a thought attached to them. They can take the shape of sound, or image, but if you have an image without thought you don’t have a word, but just a picture, and if you have a sound without thought, you only have a noise.

All the logic that you are using applies to ME and YOU and the rest of makind. IT does not apply to God. Unless ofcourse you believe God is human.

So, if God is the author of the words of Quran, then God MUST think the Quran, because words can only exist by thought. And, if God thinks the Quran, then God MUST have a mind, because thoughts do not exist without mind.

Again applies to us, the creation and not the Creator.

you obviously don’t understand what beget means, because it’s been stated many times and you ignore it. Learn what beget means, or stop using this example. What you are saying is meaningless in this conversation. I’m not saying this to be mean, but to point out that you are arguing with yourself and no one else when you say these things. You keep arguing about God having kids, and NOBODY in this thread is talking about God having kids except you.

I said God doesnt have a daughter. You believe that dont you?

You say that God has begotten a son. Right? I reject that. God neither begets nor is begotten. He is a Creator and everything else is simply the creation. If it is not God, then it is a creation. Simple enough. Everything else is just confusion. May God protect us from confusion in our beliefs.

 

[Ghosty]

All the logic that you are using applies to ME and YOU and the rest of makind. IT does not apply to God. Unless ofcourse you believe God is human.

Do you believe Genesis? It says “Let us make man in our image”. Who is speaking? Who’s image is humanity made in? If we are made in God’s image, as Scripture says, then SOMETHING about us also applies to God. Otherwise you call God a liar.

You say that God has begotten a son. Right? I reject that. God neither begets nor is begotten. He is a Creator and everything else is simply the creation. If it is not God, then it is a creation. Simple enough. Everything else is just confusion. May God protect us from confusion in our beliefs.

What exactly do you reject? You have yet to define “beget” or “begotten”. Tell me what beget means.