Son of God

[Faith101]

Ghosty:

Do you believe Genesis? It says “Let us make man in our image”. Who is speaking? Who’s image is humanity made in? If we are made in God’s image, as Scripture says, then SOMETHING about us also applies to God. Otherwise you call God a liar.

Good question.

God is all-merciful. Humans have some mercy. God is all knowing. Humans have some knoweledge. God is all just. Humans are capable of some justice. We have been blessed with certain attributes that God also has. Difference is we dont have that much of it.

I dont believe that that means that God looks like us or that how He does things is how we do things. again, we are His creation. Wow…please dont tell me that Christians believe this…b/c i honestly dont think they do.

What exactly do you reject? You have yet to define “beget” or “begotten”. Tell me what beget means.

I reject the notion of God having/needing a son. Everything belongs to Him, and everything submits to Him, and he is the Creator of everything.

I asked someone that question…what does “beget” mean. they said "it means that Jesus was not created and not made. SInce I believe that Jesus peace be upon him is God’s creation, i reject the “God has begotten a son” theory Please if you have a different definition, share!

 

[Ghosty]

God is all-merciful. Humans have some mercy. God is all knowing. Humans have some knoweledge. God is all just. Humans are capable of some justice. We have been blessed with certain attributes that God also has. Difference is we dont have that much of it.

We don’t have much, but we DO have it. We know what knowledge is because we have it and define it, but we acknowledge that God’s knowledge is greater than ours. Likewise, when I say God has a mind, I’m not saying His mind is not greater than ours. Why is it bad to say God has a mind, but not bad to say God has knowledge (which requires a mind as well)?

I asked someone that question…what does “beget” mean. they said "it means that Jesus was not created and not made. SInce I believe that Jesus peace be upon him is God’s creation, i reject the “God has begotten a son” theory Please if you have a different definition, share!

You haven’t answered my question at all. I asked you what beget means, not what someone else said it means. I didn’t even ask in the context of Jesus. I want to know what YOU think beget means, because you said:

God neither begets nor is begotten. He is a Creator and everything else is simply the creation. If it is not God, then it is a creation.

you also said:

What is logical is that God does not beget and nor is He begotten. God does not have a mother and he does not have a daughter.

Neither of those quotes have anything to do with “begetting” in the context of what we’re discussing, so I want to know what you’re talking about.

 

[Faith101]

StMarkEofE:

Some logic is called for here. Can we all agree that Muslims, Jews, and Christians hold the Covenant (Old Testament) in it highest regard? If so there is a passage in the very beginning Genesis which states very clearly: Then God said let US make man in OUR image, in OUR likeness, and let them rule over the fish…" Gen 1:26

Alright so far? Now who is the “US” God is referring to? It certainly cannot be the Angels since they possess no creative powers. The are God’s servers and subject to Him. And there wasnt any spirit other that what is already created per Genesis. God in his infinite wisdom allowed us to “see” some of the mystery of the Trinity by this passage. The “US” is at the very least God Father and the Word (Christ incarnate).

StMarkEofE

the word “us” can be used by a single being to denote power. It has been used all throughout history and is even present in the Quran. It does not automatically mean that God is talking about 2 things along with him. IN any case, it wouldnt make sense with Christian theology since you believe those 3 make 1…and they are not separate.

 

[Mimi]

hawk:

Actually,
The term “son of god” doesnt refer to an anthropological relationship.
It mirrors the covenant of Allah with Ibraheem through Ishaak.

Allah incarnates to demonstrate to us the great love He has for us.
This is what all the messainic verses talk about.

When I was muslim, I was so comfortable, thinking, I know all I need to know. These Christians have made up such complicated theology. I was confident in my beliefs.

I began to talk to a priest, as freinds. It took me an entire year of arguing and discussing, in searched the internet to support my beliefs, but in the end I had to admit that the Truth is in the Bible.

I used to read the Bible in that year, I was never able to believe it.
But now I began to realise that Christians were not making up what they believed, they were actually telling the Truth.

It started making perfect sense, and weirdly islam stopped making sense.
I stopped going to jummah, and then I came to the conclusion that the only way forward was to convert.

I was ashamed, and I could not tell anyone.
I would hide and go to church.

But then I told my fiancé, she was horrified at first, but she did not break the engagement, alhamdulillah.
She has now began to see the Truth too, I pray hard that she accept Christ in her life, and I would ask all my Christian brothers to say a little prayer that Christ enter her heart as He has entered ours, and turn her to Him.

Now i would like to give dawah to muslims, but i get scared, since it would expose me, yet at the same time I realise that I must, if one tastes the sweetest Truth, one needs to spread the good news.

This is what this thread is about, to create teach people the questions a muslim will ask, and how to deal with them from an islamic perspective.

Wa’salam

I have been following this thread. I see much nicer commentary here than in another one on this site. If we want to win souls for Jesus we must always speak the Truth in Love.

Hawk, your responses have been well thought out and eloquent. May God continue to bless you in you in your Faith and work! May He protect you from harm as you witness to the Truth! The more I read about people who convert from any other religion, even other Christian sects, the more I appreciate their conviction and courage in taking that step.

I’m a cradle Catholic, but did not always appreciate fully what the Church had to offer and, sadly, was away for a while in my youth. I believe God allowed many graces to flow through the sacrament of marriage to me and my family. After 25 years, my Protestant husband converted to Catholicism! Praise God! The rosary and praying it properly was also a great help.

I have some questions for Hawk:
Since certain events have brought Islam into the news so often, I have been trying to find out what the core beliefs are. But I understand that to even speak of the nature of God is considered a blesphemy to Muslims - is that correct? How can we try to do His will if we cannot think and talk about what that is, and how to recognize God in our lives?

The Catholic Church teaches that there is some truth in all religions; the CC has the Full Deposit of Faith preserved from the time of Christ.

Re: Understanding the Trinity
As was said by someone else previously, yes, this is a mystery we cannot FULLY comprehend, BUT there are many things in the natural we cannot fully understand, either. God’s ways are so far above our ways, it is not possible for us to fully explain everything in matters of faith. In the natural world, gravity; scientists do not know exactly what it is, but we know it exists. It can’t be explained, yet we use it to understand the way the universe works, how objects stay on the earth, for example. So, just bc we do not or cannot know everything perfectly about the wonders of God, it doesn’t mean we cannot know Something. He has used many to reveal some things about Him to edify our Faith. Yet we have Free Will, so it is always up to us to either accept it or reject this knowledge. If we accept, there are great works He can do through us! But we must be open to and seek His will.

Thank you for your responses!
Peace,
Mimi

 

[Reuben_J]

Faith101:

What is logical is that God does not beget and nor is He begotten. God does not have a mother and he does not have a daughter. he is ONE…soooo simple, yet the devil wants to complicate things for us until we follow him into darkness. Lets not let him do that.

Just curious. Who says that God have a mother and a daughter?
Who says that God in not one, but three?

 

[Faith101]

Reuben J:

Just curious. Who says that God have a mother and a daughter?

I dont know, maybe some people out there. LIke you say God has a son, so they say God has a daughter…we have a lot of feminist out there.

Who says that God in not one, but three?

some people say God is composed of 3 persons, some say hundreds…just depends if your a christian or a hindu.

i know you believe in one God…just the nature of Him is confusing to understand (at least for mee…and after all the explanations on this forum…i still dont get it)

 

[Reuben_J]

Faith101:

I dont know, maybe some people out there. LIke you say God has a son, so they say God has a daughter…we have a lot of feminist out there.

some people say God is composed of 3 persons, some say hundreds…just depends if your a christian or a hindu.

i know you believe in one God…just the nature of Him is confusing to understand (at least for mee…and after all the explanations on this forum…i still dont get it)

Since you made that statement in this forum, which is a Catholic forum, I thought you would attribute it to Catholic belief in our concept of God.

I don’t know whether I can have an answer from you or not. If you feel you don’t need to respond, it is okay. But I really want to know, in order that this discussion can move on. If you have a thought on what Catholic believe about concept of God. I know what Muslims believe on concept about God. There is only one God. Period. At least that what I hear from them. I could still be wrong and if so, please correct me. But you have been discussing this topic with Catholics, so what do they tell you about their concept of God?

If you want to talk about what other religions’ concept of God, fine. For general infromation. But here we are, Catholics and Muslims discussing this issue, why not just be honest with each other.

We can disagree, no problem with that. But if you keep on misunderstanding our argument, then we might need to re-explain it again so that you will get what we really want to convey to you. I have the impression that we might not explain the trinity concept clear enough to you for you not to understand what we meant.

Peace.

Reuben

 

[Faith101]

]Since you made that statement in this forum, which is a Catholic forum, I thought you would attribute it to Catholic belief in our concept of God.

God having a son. God having a daughter. From an outsiders point of view…there is not much of a difference.

I don’t know whether I can have an answer from you or not. If you feel you don’t need to respond, it is okay. But I really want to know, in order that this discussion can move on. If you have a thought on what Catholic believe about concept of God. I know what Muslims believe on concept about God. There is only one God. Period. At least that what I hear from them. I could still be wrong and if so, please correct me. But you have been discussing this topic with Catholics, so what do they tell you about their concept of God?

You are correct. Muslims believe in only One God.
Catholics also believe in one God. However, they strip Him of much of His power. To name a few that i learned from this forum

1. God coming to earth in flesh…being hungry, sad, helpless, not knowing certain things, being tortured, and finally dying
2. The idea that Satan has the power to cause death and not God. It would make sense that the Creator who ownes His creation, should also have the right to do whatever He wanted to His creation.
3. Catholics pray to other than God, at times. It tends to be justified with the notion that these saints and holy people have some greater connection to God and are doing us a favor by listening to our calls.
4. God needing to “sacrifice His only son” to free you of your sins…when in fact He is the Most Merciful…and would never put the blame on one person that belongs to another.

i do have to add…that i look at Christianity from a Muslims eyes. In Islam, there is a concept called “tawheed” which is the oneness of God…and believe it or not…you can write volumes on this one concept. We associate NOTHING with God…whether an object or a human. We call to NO ONE but God, whether the holiest of people or the best of prophets. THe concept is clearn.

Christianity in so many ways is breaking the concept of “one God” *even * without including the trinity.
.

We can disagree, no problem with that. But if you keep on misunderstanding our argument, then we might need to re-explain it again so that you will get what we really want to convey to you. I have the impression that we might not explain the trinity concept clear enough to you for you not to understand what we meant.

I have given up hope understanding the trinity. If the majority of Christians themselves do not udnersatnd it…and the more learned of them say that it is a “mystery” not meant to be understood…than how can i, someone outside of the religion, hope to understand this concept?

In any case…neither I nor you have the ability to guide people. That power is left with God alone. All we can do is pray to Him that we are all guided to the straight path.

 

[Ghosty]

1. God coming to earth in flesh…being hungry, sad, helpless, not knowing certain things, being tortured, and finally dying

God knows all things, and was never helpless. I have said repeatedly the nature of the “not knowing”, but you seem to refuse to listen to the explaination. A lack of listening/understanding on your part does not equate to heresy on the part of Catholics. You keep repeating allegations that are utterly false, and not taking into account our ample answers for them.

1. The idea that Satan has the power to cause death and not God. It would make sense that the Creator who ownes His creation, should also have the right to do whatever He wanted to His creation.

Satan doesn’t cause death, and I don’t know where you get the idea that Catholics think he does. Nothing in this point relates to Catholic beliefs.

1. Catholics pray to other than God, at times. It tends to be justified with the notion that these saints and holy people have some greater connection to God and are doing us a favor by listening to our calls.

We “pray” to the saints as a means of talking to people who aren’t physically present. We do not pray in the sense of worshipping them. We ask the saints to pray with us and for us, because they are fellow Christians, and they are with God.

1. God needing to “sacrifice His only son” to free you of your sins…when in fact He is the Most Merciful…and would never put the blame on one person that belongs to another.

Catholics don’t believe that God needed to die for our sins, but that He CHOSE to as a fitting answer to Divine Justice. We don’t believe God put ANYONE to death for another’s crimes, we believe that Jesus IS God, and CHOSE to physically die as a self-sacrifice for His creations.

In Islam, there is a concept called “tawheed” which is the oneness of God…and believe it or not…you can write volumes on this one concept.

Show us some sources in English and we can debate it. I’ve never, ever seen a true discussion about this topic between Muslims and Christians. Muslims ALWAYS back down and drop the discussion, as you have done in this thread.

Christianity in so many ways is breaking the concept of “one God” *even *without including the trinity.

Mention some, then. Nothing you’ve listed so far does this. In fact, most of what you listed isn’t even Christian belief.

If the majority of Christians themselves do not udnersatnd it…and the more learned of them say that it is a “mystery” not meant to be understood…than how can i, someone outside of the religion, hope to understand this concept?

This is NOT a Catholic belief! We already corrected you on that in this very thread. Catholics believe it CAN be understood, but that it can’t be fully explored. Please READ what we write if you want to have a discussion.

I don’t mean to be rude, but I’m getting very frustrated at your constant misrepresentation and repetition of misconceptions even after they’ve been addressed. I don’t even see you acknowledging them having been addressed. It’s as if you refuse to read anything that we write, instead simply repeating your allegations over and over. That does not allow for any kind of discussion, and does nothing to show the strength and truth of Islam. How can you claim your faith to be Truth when you refuse to even answer our words with your Truth.

I enjoy talking with Muslims, but it MUST be a two-way thing, not simply Muslims repeating things that have already been answered numerous times. Please, take the time to read our specific answers and address them reasonably before continuing in such a discussion.

 

[hlgomez]

2

. The idea that Satan has the power to cause death and not God. It would make sense that the Creator who ownes His creation, should also have the right to do whatever He wanted to His creation.

Satan doesn’t cause death, and I don’t know where you get the idea that Catholics think he does. Nothing in this point relates to Catholic beliefs.

Ghosty,

It is a Catholic belief. You can view the answers to this argument on the “Allah causes death?” thread.

Your views are somewhat different from what the Bible says and the teachings of the Catholic Church.

Here are some passages in the Bible and you can check on them from your Bible.

**Wisdom 1:12-13
**Court not death by your erring way of life, nor draw to yourselves destruction by the works of your hands.Because God did not make death, nor does he rejoice in the destruction of the living.

Romans 5:12-14
Therefore, just as through one person sin entered the world, and through sin, death, and thus death came to all, inasmuch as all sinned for up to the time of the law, sin was in the world, though sin is not accounted when there is no law.
But death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who did not sin after the pattern of the trespass of Adam, who is the type of the one who was to come.

1 Corinthians 15:21-27
For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead came also through a human being. For just as in Adam all die, so too in Christ shall all be brought to life, but each one in proper order: Christ the firstfruits; then, at his coming, those who belong to Christ; then comes the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has destroyed every sovereignty and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death, for “he subjected everything under his feet.” But when it says that everything has been subjected, it is clear that it excludes the one who subjected everything to him.

Hebrews 2:14
Now since the children share in blood and flesh, he likewise shared in them, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and free those who through fear of death had been subject to slavery all their life.

2 Tim 1:9
He saved us and called us to a holy life, not according to our works but according to his own design and the grace bestowed on us in Christ Jesus before time began, but now made manifest through the appearance of our savior Christ Jesus, who destroyed death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, for which I was appointed preacher and apostle and teacher.

Pio

 

[Ghosty]

I never said that God created death, but rather that the Devil didn’t either. Death is a privation, not an attribute. You can’t “have” death or “create” death, you can only take away life. You can’t add up death,

Death is a result of sin, and sin is a privation of good.

 

[Akanke]

2. The idea that Satan has the power to cause death and not God. It would make sense that the Creator who ownes His creation, should also have the right to do whatever He wanted to His creation.

1. Catholics pray to other than God, at times. It tends to be justified with the notion that these saints and holy people have some greater connection to God and are doing us a favor by listening to our calls.
2. God needing to “sacrifice His only son” to free you of your sins…when in fact He is the Most Merciful…and would never put the blame on one person that belongs to another.

It would be important to note that, logically speaking, the idea that one thing can cause something does not mean that another thing cannot.

The fact that I wear Nike tennis shoes doesn’t mean that I don’t also wear Adidas tennis shoes or Timberland hiking boots sometimes. Additionally, the fact that I wear Nike tennis shoes does not mean that John Deere does or does not wear them. John Deere is in no way affected by the statement, “Akanke wears Nike tennis shoes.”

John Deere would *not *wear Nike tennis shoes if the sentence were to read, “There is only one pair of Nike tennis shoes, and since Akanke wears them, John Deere does not.”

I hope this illustration of logic makes sense. I am, at present, unaware of any statement claiming that only one being causes death. Or, from a different point addressed in this thread, I am also unaware of any statement claiming that only one being created death (though death being an original and unique concept, it is logical to say that only one being created it, and that many ways to die were created by many different beings).

I noticed posted in another thread were the words I thought as I read this thread: God’s seemingly “lack of power” (lack of power, according to my understanding of the Muslim perspective) is not equivalent to God not having that power, but rather God choosing not to exercise that power. There is a significant difference.

 

[dranzal]

Many of the misunderstandings of the Trinity and teachings stemming from it may result from semantics (for some, this is quite an understatement). For the record, “Son” of God as it refers to Jesus, doesn’t mean God’s physical son (like son/daughter). “Father” doesn’t mean Jesus’ physical father. Finally, in many instances, “Death” does not refer to physical death, but rather spiritual death as in rejection of the loving presence of God.

Faith101:

God having a son. God having a daughter. From an outsiders point of view…there is not much of a difference.

You are correct. Muslims believe in only One God.
Catholics also believe in one God. However, they strip Him of much of His power. To name a few that i learned from this forum

1. God coming to earth in flesh…being hungry, sad, helpless, not knowing certain things, being tortured, and finally dying

This does not demonstrate His divine weakness, but His divine power and His great love for us. Power is not only demonstrated by force. The truly powerful are not intimidated by lowering themselves to associate with their creations. He became man. He chose to. Inherent in that choice was the knowledge of His torture and physical death. God knows everything. He knew when we were created that, because of His great love for us, He would become man to show us the depth of His love by dying for us. There are O.T. prophesies written long before His physical birth that detail His torture and death. Knowing what we would do to Him, He created us. Therefore, God did not send His biological/physical son and condemn him to death. God lowered Himself to our state to suffer at the very hands He created to demonstrate for us His great love.

1. The idea that Satan has the power to cause death and not God. It would make sense that the Creator who ownes His creation, should also have the right to do whatever He wanted to His creation.

Ghosty, I think responded to these as well. Can Satan run around killing people? That is not the nature of the question. Through Adam and Eve’s sin, Satan is the original cause (instigator, if you will) of Death (spiritual, not physical). As adherents to some sort of religious faith, most of the posters likely believe that this physical life is but a moment of our eternal lives. Therefore, it stands to reason that God is not overly concerned with our physical death, but with our spiritual life/death. Could He cause physical death? Definitely! Does God cause spiritual Death (can He be the author of Evil)? No. God is not the author of Evil. We become so bogged down debating physical death when that should not concern us except as a “deadline” (pardon the pun) to make our eternal decision. Satan is the author of Evil (defined as rejection in some way, of God).

1. Catholics pray to other than God, at times. It tends to be justified with the notion that these saints and holy people have some greater connection to God and are doing us a favor by listening to our calls.

Yes, we do. My brother is muslim and he confirmed that he can ask friends, relatives, etc. to pray for him or some intention. Example: “Jim, will you pray for my wife who is in the hospital in gravely premature labor?” Our “praying to saints, or Mary, for that matter” is nothing more than asking our departed, but still spiritually alive brothers and sisters to pray for and with us. He said that the difference is that we believe the saints are alive in heaven and he doesn’t. Muslims on this thread can confirm or deny his assertion.

1. God needing to “sacrifice His only son” to free you of your sins…when in fact He is the Most Merciful…and would never put the blame on one person that belongs to another.

This I partly addressed under number one. Yes, the blame was shifted to the innocent. We believe that no ordinary human can ever be pure enough to go to heaven because of our very nature. Because of His deep, deep love, He sacrificed Himself, submitting to unspeakable torture. This was to demonstrate to us His love. The “Father”, “Son”, and “Spirit” are inseparable. Wherever one is, there the others are as well.

The inescapable bottom line is that the Bible and the Quran cannot both be the Truth (Word of God). So long as Bible adherents maintain the absolute Truth of the Bible and Quran adherents do likewise with the Quran, we will continue arguing at each other rather than speaking with each other. One yells, “The grass is green” while the other hollers, “Yeah, well the sky is blue.”:banghead:

May God, in His time, reconcile us that all may be one in Him!!!

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

hawk:

What does it mean for Jesus to be the Son of God?

At least in NT usage, it appears to be based on the notion of the king descended from David as being the son of God.​

As Jesus is “son of David”, and is the Messianic King, He is rightly called son of God - a title which, in NT usage, undergoes a bit of reinterpretation and expansion in the light of the experience people have of Him: the Baptism is His public anointing by the Spirit, and His entry into Jerusalem on a colt is a repetition of how Solomon rode to his coronation; just as His trial is the beginning of His conquest as Messiah over the enemies of His people: those enemies being sin, death, and the devil.

What He did, shows what sort of Messiah He is, and what sort of son of God He is. ##