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TantumErgo90
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Is it wrong for a Catholic to sing along at Mass when there are non-Liturgical instruments being used?
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wanner47
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No; why would it be?
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Timothysis
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“Wrong,” as in being a sin? When we sang this morning, there were no instruments used. Was it “wrong” to sing without the organ, even though it works fine?Is it wrong for a Catholic to sing along at Mass when there are non-Liturgical instruments being used?
Let me be so bold; is this an attempt to say that using any instrument (non-liturgical) other than an organ is wrong? And that Catholics shouldn’t participate?
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bpbasilphx
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Is it wrong for a Catholic to sing along at Mass when there are non-Liturgical instruments being used?
**If a musical instrument is used at liturgy, the instrument becomes by that use liturgical.
Speaking as an orchestral musician (and church musician), instruments are not divided into “liturgical” and “non-liturgical”.**
**If a musical instrument is used at liturgy, the instrument becomes by that use liturgical.
Speaking as an orchestral musician (and church musician), instruments are not divided into “liturgical” and “non-liturgical”.**
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Cat
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What do you mean by “non-liturgical” instruments? Do you mean “non-traditional?”
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mattkubes
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I still stand by it being OK to sing, but I think OP must have been referring to non-traditional, especially in a cultural sense. For example, I live in an almost entirely Caucasian area, your standard mid-sized city in Canada. Tonight when I go to Mass, I know they’ll be playing synth-steel drums on the keyboard during the Great Amen, and other parts of the Mass. It’s completely out of place, culturally speaking, and arguably distracting to most Western ears (especially after the Doxology is sung in such beautiful chant).
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TantumErgo90
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I mean piano. But sometimes worse (drums, guitar, maracas).
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Timothysis
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You’ve obviously never heard a Mozart or Beethoven piano concerto…
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bpbasilphx
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**
I mean piano. But sometimes worse (drums, guitar, maracas).**
**I’d rather hear a well-played in-tune piano than a toy spinet organ so often found in Latin parishes.
And I have no trouble with a well-played classical guitar. However, the ability to strum three chords and move a capo does not make one a liturgical guitarist.
As far as drums, Mozart’s Requiem calls for timpani, and the work has been used liturgically.
And why are maracas worse than anything else? Many Eastern churches (generally not the Byzantine) use cymbals and simantra (blocks of wood or metal struck with beaters).
And the bells and altar chimes, so beloved of traditionalists, are percussion instruments–in the same family as drums and maracas–used liturgically.**
I mean piano. But sometimes worse (drums, guitar, maracas).**
**I’d rather hear a well-played in-tune piano than a toy spinet organ so often found in Latin parishes.
And I have no trouble with a well-played classical guitar. However, the ability to strum three chords and move a capo does not make one a liturgical guitarist.
As far as drums, Mozart’s Requiem calls for timpani, and the work has been used liturgically.
And why are maracas worse than anything else? Many Eastern churches (generally not the Byzantine) use cymbals and simantra (blocks of wood or metal struck with beaters).
And the bells and altar chimes, so beloved of traditionalists, are percussion instruments–in the same family as drums and maracas–used liturgically.**
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mattkubes
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I think this post sums it up pretty well - it usually comes down to taste and the way things are played. I just wish my parish’s massive pipe organ got played every once in a while
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Cat
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There is probably no organist. In our city of 150,000, I know of only a dozen or so organists who are capable of playing a massive pipe organ, or even a small pipe organ. And those who DO play the pipe organ charge mega wazoo bucks, and I don’t BLAME THEM! They’re pretty rare!I think this post sums it up pretty well - it usually comes down to taste and the way things are played. I just wish my parish’s massive pipe organ got played every once in a while
These organists generally play for several services or Masses on Sundays, and since they can’t play in two places at once, your church is out of luck unless you want to get into a bidding war with one of the lucky churches!
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Cat
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Has your bishop declared that the piano and other instruments are non-liturgical?
Have you read the various documents from the Catholic Church that declare a piano and other instruments appropriate for Mass?
Do you have the authority from the Catholic Church to declare instruments “non-liturgical?”
Finally, do you have any idea how hurtful it is for me, as a pianist for several parishes, to hear that you would even consider not singing at a Mass where I play, because for some reason you think I am playing a non-liturgical instrument, even though the priests in those parishes and the bishop of this diocese apparently approve of the piano for use in Mass?
That hurts, buddy. It really hurts. But I’ll go with what my priests and bishops say and not listen to you, unless you DO have the authority from the Church.
Sorry I can’t play the organ. Most people can’t. See my post above. If you want organists in the Catholic Church, YOU start paying the way for little kids to take lessons, buy music, and rent the church building to practice. It’s not cheap.
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SeekerJen
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Wasn’t “Silent Night” written for guitar? And how about the massive musical scores for Mass settings that include various strings, brass, and percussion? What about parishes that cannot afford an organ or organist? Should they not have music at all?
This seems an excessively legalistic reading of Church doctrine.
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mattkubes
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I’ll agree that the use of that term by the OP was out of place.
I’ve been a pianist for a couple parishes for several years, but I gave the OP the benefit of the doubt on this one. It wasn’t too long ago when I was playing a ridiculous arrangement of “City of God” that I realised the piano isn’t always suited to liturgical music. BUT, as you pointed out very well, it’s not always possible to find an organist either. We have to make due with what we have and realise that music can be performed respectfully on almost any instrument.
We can’t make blanket statements about particular instruments. Pipe organs can be played reverently and horrendously.
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TantumErgo90
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Many priests and liturgists think that the piano is a non-Liturgical instrument. The piano is mainly used for secular purposes, therefore not fitting for the liturgy.
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mattkubes
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Franz Liszt wrote beautiful sacred works for the piano (see his Via Crucis), and he wasn’t alone among the great composers. Today it may be used for mostly secular purposes, but that’s a pretty weak argument. I don’t usually call people out on weasel words…but which priests and liturgists told you this? Can you provide any references? Or a list of “liturgical” instruments from an official source would be great.
I don’t necessarily disagree with your basic argument, but labeling an instrument as “non-liturgical” is pretty strong. I never even called the synth-steel drums at my parish non-liturgical…but they sure are annoying
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peary
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What exactly is a “non-liturgical” instrument???Is it wrong for a Catholic to sing along at Mass when there are non-Liturgical instruments being used?
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Timothysis
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Shoes are also used mainly for secular purposes, so are you suggesting that we go to Mass barefooted???
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Phemie
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A lot of the liturgical music composed in the last few decades has been composed for piano.
OTOH, the organ was used in movie houses to accompany silent movies and is used at hockey games.
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Cat
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And the organ is used with a lot of 60s rock music.
And the organ is used to accompany horror movies.
This is ridiculous. ALL instruments are used secularly, thanks to musicians like Sting and Paul Simon who creatively utilize all kinds of instruments in their music.
A local bishop certainly has the authority to declare that in his diocese, a piano is “secular” and cannot be used, and I can see this happening in a city where piano bars abound. I’m not sure where that would be (Las Vegas?).
But for the most part, a bishop who makes this declaration will sentence most of the parishes to music-less Masses, or at least unaccompanied music, which is usually wretched.
Organists are extremely rare in the U.S. I just found out that our large parish is losing our organist to the Cathedral, and I am quite worried as to who will replace the organist. It won’t be me. I know of two other organists who “pinch hit” for our organist, as well as a few pianists (me). But none of us are equipped to take over the organist’s responsibilities. This announcement is a real blow to our parish. There is simply no one to step up to the organ bench. And we have the BEST pipe organ in Northern Illinois. The BEST. :crying:
As I said in another thread, those of you who are so heavenly-minded that you find a piano too “secular” for your holy ears, if you want to continue to be blest with organ music during Mass, then you had BETTER be paying the way for SEVERAL children to take lessons, buy music, and rent the church. I’m estimating that lessons will run around $40/hour, with one lesson/per week, the music will run around $25/book, with about 6-10 books per year (depends on how fast the student progresses), and renting the church organ will probably cost at least $20/hour, along with a deposit for liability. You will also have to remain IN THE CHURCH while the child is practicing, since it would be unwise to leave a child or teenager alone in a church building. So you’re looking at $70/week? You can see why a lot of large Catholic families aren’t exactly leaping to get their children involved in learning to play the organ. SO YOU HELP THEM OUT, OK?
In case anyone is wondering, I serve in several capacities in the local music club, the oldest continuously-operating music club in the United States. Almost any musician in our area eventually joins this music club because it’s fun, cheap, and gives lots of performance and networking opportunities. It is a place where a musician can develop new ideas and implement them. So I KNOW who plays organ (and who doesn’t) in our city. They are very rare and very, very busy.
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