Songs at Mass

[TurboVW]

I’m not one to write a long post, but i wanted to put my two cents in.

I grew up in a parish with a “folk Mass” (well, I’m under 25…) and I thought they were “cool,” albeit annoying sometimes in their song choices (Jefferson Airplane and Godspell. And this was as recent as 2002.)

We moved to a parish wich made use of the organ and piano to accompany “easy-listening” selections of hyms that have a vague notion of Catholicism. With the transferring of the former choir director, we’re stuck with a younger guy who is surgically attached to an electric piano (which is next to the dusty piano and organ) and plays the same kind of stuff every Sunday.

I occasionally make the 20-mile trek downtown to a Tridentine Mass to refresh my memory of quality Catholic hymns (and to hear something that dosen’t soothe me to sleep), but I always get called back to my original parish (it’s only four miles from home) for “folk Mass.” That parish now recieved a younger guy who is also surgically attached to his electric piano (which is next to the dusty piano and organ) and plays easy-listening, terribly soothing hymns that no one knows, thus putting to rest 35-year run of the “folk Mass.”

Now, both parishes’ congregations are silent, filled with the synthetic tones of “hymns” suitable for easy-listening FM stations.

For me, it dosen’t matter if it’s guitar, organ, or piano. It’s just those Casio keyboards try my patience. Just a little bit more if they’re used next to the real piano. And if they push the “chimes” key to have some strange sound resembling windchimes between the “Lamb of God” stanzas.

 

[Cat]

I’m not one to write a long post, but i wanted to put my two cents in.

I grew up in a parish with a “folk Mass” (well, I’m under 25…) and I thought they were “cool,” albeit annoying sometimes in their song choices (Jefferson Airplane and Godspell. And this was as recent as 2002.)

We moved to a parish wich made use of the organ and piano to accompany “easy-listening” selections of hyms that have a vague notion of Catholicism. With the transferring of the former choir director, we’re stuck with a younger guy who is surgically attached to an electric piano (which is next to the dusty piano and organ) and plays the same kind of stuff every Sunday.

I occasionally make the 20-mile trek downtown to a Tridentine Mass to refresh my memory of quality Catholic hymns (and to hear something that dosen’t soothe me to sleep), but I always get called back to my original parish (it’s only four miles from home) for “folk Mass.” That parish now recieved a younger guy who is also surgically attached to his electric piano (which is next to the dusty piano and organ) and plays easy-listening, terribly soothing hymns that no one knows, thus putting to rest 35-year run of the “folk Mass.”

Now, both parishes’ congregations are silent, filled with the synthetic tones of “hymns” suitable for easy-listening FM stations.

For me, it dosen’t matter if it’s guitar, organ, or piano. It’s just those Casio keyboards try my patience. Just a little bit more if they’re used next to the real piano. And if they push the “chimes” key to have some strange sound resembling windchimes between the “Lamb of God” stanzas.

Those keyboards are much cheaper to maintain than a real piano, especially in a cavernous room that doesn’t get heated or cooled adequately throughout much of the week. If you want to pay for a monthly (or more often, if you live in a humid climate) tuning of your church’s acoustic piano, many of us who play would be grateful to you. But in my experiences, a monthly tuning is not well received by parishioners when it shows up on the church budget. There are much better ways to spend money.

I dislike playing keyboards, too. But they are better than out-of-tune pianos with notes that don’t play and pedals that stick.

Also, one advantage that many keyboards have is that they can be transposed with the push of a button. This is really nice when some of the old-fashioned hymns reach up into the nether regions, or when a bass or alto cantor volunteer. Some pianists can tranpose on the spot, but most of us can’t.

 

[TurboVW]

Thank you for helping me to understand the plight of the church musician. Some of this I wasn’t ever aware of.

And “Cat,” no offense was meant by my 23-years of observances of Catholic muscianship.

 

[TantumErgo90]

Here is a link quoting a Catholic expert about the piano at Mass ewtn.com/vexperts/showresult.asp?RecNum=419042&Forums=8&Experts=0&Days=2008&Author=&Keyword=piano&pgnu=1&groupnum=0&record_bookmark=4&ORDER_BY_TXT=ORDER+BY+ReplyDate+DESC&start_at=

 

[TurboVW]

This is really nice when some of the old-fashioned hymns reach up into the nether regions, or when a bass or alto cantor volunteer. Some pianists can tranpose on the spot, but most of us can’t.

And what constitues “old-fashioned”?

Thank you for helping me to understand the plight of the church musician. Some of this I wasn’t ever aware of.

And “Cat,” no offense was meant by my 23-years of observances of Catholic muscianship.

 

[EasterJoy]

Here is a link quoting a Catholic expert about the piano at Mass ewtn.com/vexperts/showresult.asp?RecNum=419042&Forums=8&Experts=0&Days=2008&Author=&Keyword=piano&pgnu=1&groupnum=0&record_bookmark=4&ORDER_BY_TXT=ORDER+BY+ReplyDate+DESC&start_at=

This is what one guy thinks, which by his own admission is not what the Church requires.

In our age, what is appropriate has less to do with the instruments and more to do with the style of music chosen. A musician can make a piano sound like a cocktail bar, which isn’t appropriate for Mass. A musician can also make an organ sound like a roller-skating rink or a ballpark, which would also be inappropriate…and very painful, if the organist is oblivious to the fact that this is in fact what is being done! (My personal feeling is that this accounts for the prevalence of bad guitar and piano music at Mass: far fewer Catholics will join in when there are no instruments accompanying, and bad organ music is even worse!!)

My two cents: if the style of music or the theological content of the song is objectionable, allow your conscience to bid you refrain from singing, but bring it up to the musicians, too. If there is more than one of you who feel that way, go together. If the problem is serious and the musicians will not have a conversation about the matter, bring the issue to the pastor and/or the liturgy committee. If the pastor does not interpret the demands of the Mass the same way as you do, and if the parish will not even offer a single regular Mass at which the music is restricted to more traditional songs and musicianship, consider finding another parish.

 

[EasterJoy]

Those keyboards are much cheaper to maintain than a real piano, especially in a cavernous room that doesn’t get heated or cooled adequately throughout much of the week. If you want to pay for a monthly (or more often, if you live in a humid climate) tuning of your church’s acoustic piano, many of us who play would be grateful to you. But in my experiences, a monthly tuning is not well received by parishioners when it shows up on the church budget. There are much better ways to spend money.

I dislike playing keyboards, too. But they are better than out-of-tune pianos with notes that don’t play and pedals that stick.

Also, one advantage that many keyboards have is that they can be transposed with the push of a button. This is really nice when some of the old-fashioned hymns reach up into the nether regions, or when a bass or alto cantor volunteer. Some pianists can tranpose on the spot, but most of us can’t.

It also isn’t widely appreciated that even though many keyboards can be changed to play as if they were organs, the method of playing piano and organ properly are VERY different. There was a time when keyboards would only play as if they were an organ–there was no percussive aspect to their response–but that has changed. Most keyboard players were trained as pianists, but not as organists, whereas most organists are trained to some extent in both piano and organ.

 

[TurboVW]

My two cents: if the style of music or the theological content of the song is objectionable, allow your conscience to bid you refrain from singing, but bring it up to the musicians, too. If there is more than one of you who feel that way, go together. If the problem is serious and the musicians will not have a conversation about the matter, bring the issue to the pastor and/or the liturgy committee.

Thank you! My thoughts exactly…I’ve done this one more than one occasion via a simple email or in person at both parishes.
The musicians try, but the focus, no matter what the situation and location, is susceptible to being skewed by well-intentioned people.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

The trombone (or sackbut) originally was predominantly used in churches and was not commonly used in concert halls until the 19th Century. I don’t like them used at Mass, but I recognize that as a matter of personal taste, not anything else. The piano can be perfectly suited to use in the Mass, as can any number of instruments (I should think common sense would exclude the kazoo). It’s the songs played upon those instruments we should be concerned about.

 

[mattkubes]

The piano can be perfectly suited to use in the Mass, as can any number of instruments (I should think common sense would exclude the kazoo). It’s the songs played upon those instruments we should be concerned about.

I completely agree - but we can’t completely ignore the wisdom of Pope St. Pius X. In ideal cases, a reverently played organ is more appropriate to the liturgy, but a piano can be played very reverently as well.

This is from an old thread on the same topic, and shows how even saxophones could be played reverently - just scroll down this page and click to listen to Bach’s “Wachet Auf”. In this case, the saxophones basically mimic an organ…but I can guarantee you that in 99% of cases today, this is not how saxophones would be used in Mass.

Most instruments can be used reverently, yes. But the real question is whether or not they’re actually being used in a reverent way. The possibility of reverent use does not automatically justify an instrument’s use in the Mass.

 

[ethelzguy]

A musician can also make an organ sound like a roller-skating rink or a ballpark, which would also be inappropriate…

You should have heard my Pop on Sunday afternoons.

It may have been the “church organ” but i’twarnt church music.

 

[ethelzguy]

In this case, the saxophones basically mimic an organ…but I can guarantee you that in 99% of cases today, this is not how saxophones would be used in Mass.

If you look at many “electric/electronic” church organs, the levers are usually labeled to indicate “woodwind” sounds…Flute/oboe, etc.

How funny that we hold an instrument in such high regard that actually is made to imitate many instruments that some would regard as inappropriate for Mass.

 

[mattkubes]

If you look at many “electric/electronic” church organs, the levers are usually labeled to indicate “woodwind” sounds…Flute/oboe, etc.

How funny that we hold an instrument in such high regard that actually is made to imitate many instruments that some would regard as inappropriate for Mass.

That’s true even of big pipe organs…although on those, you have to admit that they really don’t sound a whole lot like the actual instrument Most people wouldn’t be able to pick out the similarity haha - but I understand your point!

 

[peary]

Here is a link quoting a Catholic expert about the piano at Mass ewtn.com/vexperts/showresult.asp?RecNum=419042&Forums=8&Experts=0&Days=2008&Author=&Keyword=piano&pgnu=1&groupnum=0&record_bookmark=4&ORDER_BY_TXT=ORDER+BY+ReplyDate+DESC&start_at=

Piano
Question from on 11-16-2004:
Has Pope St. Pius X’s ban on the use of the piano for Mass ever been lifted? Why do churches allow piano music at Mass? Our church sounds like a cocktail lounge. The piano is incapable of sustaining the singing of 300 people anyway.
Answer by Colin B. Donovan, STL on 12-06-2004:
Since the Holy See has given the authority to determine what instruments and music are suitable for sacred use in their region to each bishop’s conference, it would seem to be superceded.
However, Catholics should not be moral positivists who rely primarily on the approval or disapproval of lawmaking authority, though obedience to authority is important. The Pope’s prohibition, though technically probably no longer binding, is no doubt based on principle - instruments, like music and artforms in general (e.g. dance), used in the Mass should be associated with the sacred, not the profane. It seems evident, to me at least, that the piano is no more suitable today than it was in Pope Pius’ time, and that his judgment remains valid as guidance for those who make the decision today under current law. The piano does indeed make a church sound like a cocktail lounge, and thus does NOT evoke the sense of the sacred suitable for Mass.

And I vehemently disagree with Donovan on this issue. As a classically-trained pianistg myself, I find his attitude reprehensible.

 

[EasterJoy]

If you look at many “electric/electronic” church organs, the levers are usually labeled to indicate “woodwind” sounds…Flute/oboe, etc.

How funny that we hold an instrument in such high regard that actually is made to imitate many instruments that some would regard as inappropriate for Mass.

a) Real organs are wind instruments, and sound like wind instruments. If someone wanted to argue that wind instruments are liturgically appropriate and percussion instruments or string instruments aren’t…well, OK, I’d disagree with the blanket statement, but I’d at least understand their sentiment. It has internal consistency. How one could make a blanket statement that an organ is liturgically appropriate but a flute or oboe is not: that is totally beyond me. It doesn’t compute. Again: you can make an organ sound like a merry-go-round. It isn’t locked into liturgical appropriateness by its nature or anything.

b) I would highly doubt that the actual people who make electronic organs capable of sounds similar to oboes and flutes give two figs for people who are scandalized by liturgical use of those instruments. It is tough to name anything that some baptized Catholic somewhere doesn’t regard as inappropriate for Mass. You could probably find someone who wouldn’t want to hear the angels singing, because after all, they weren’t saved from sin.

 

[Little_Katie]

I’m a firm believer in the saying “singing is like praying twice”.

So long as we are singing things that are good and liturgical it shouldn’t matter at all what kind of instruments are being used.

Granted, I don’t really care for the more rock and roll ish music that the youth masses usually have. I like the traditional stuff myself

 

[bpbasilphx]

**
Many priests and liturgists think that the piano is a non-Liturgical instrument. The piano is mainly used for secular purposes, therefore not fitting for the liturgy.**

**And the organ originated in Roman circuses until it was moved into the Church.

Just because “priests and liturgists” think something doesn’t make it so.**

 

[bpbasilphx]

Shoes are also used mainly for secular purposes, so are you suggesting that we go to Mass barefooted???

Actually, there are some of the Eastern Churches that require the priest (and often worshippers) to be barefoot, or else wear special slippers.

 

[John_Higgins]

Of course not, don’t be silly. BUT, a kazoo, now THAT would be inappropriate.

John

 

[peary]

**
Many priests and liturgists think that the piano is a non-Liturgical instrument. The piano is mainly used for secular purposes, therefore not fitting for the liturgy.**

**And the organ originated in Roman circuses until it was moved into the Church.

Just because “priests and liturgists” think something doesn’t make it so.**

Most Eastern-rite churches do not have organ in them. That is a western church development. And, not only that, if the piano was part of the Roman circuses and moved into the Church, I am sure the organ would be considered ‘inappropriate’. Look at the Bible. What instruments were used to praise God that are mentioned in the Bible? Woodwinds, drums, cymbals, horns, etc. You find references all over the place. And it is true 0 just because some “priests and liturgists” think certain ways about worship doesn’t make it so.