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universalindult
Guest
To clarify, here are some of Archbishop Ranjith’s words regarding these “little tittle rules”:
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I_Believe
Guest
There you have it.
… from one who the wolves wanted to deport to Sri Lanka.
I assume Archbishop Ranjith is still in Rome ?
And that is what I don’t get about the SSPX. Here we have positive signals coming from Rome that there is acknowledgement of errors that have contributed to the crisis, yet every ray of hope is met with distrust.
Look at the ridiculous comments on AQ and FE about the Transalpine Redemptorists “selling out”. Ask one of the nay sayers to name a single piece of evidence to support their childish slurs, and all you’ll get is " you’ll see, just a matter of time". They base this on what “happened” to the FSSP. Or some mention of Campos, yada yada yada.
We have a new Pope now. All that happened under a different Pope.
BTW, for those who don’t know, the Transalpine Redemptorists will have a new name Aug 2nd.
Read it here…
papastronsay.blogspot.com/2008/07/no-more-servants-but-sons-gal-iv7.html
The paranoia is absurd. Come on, we have Cardinals and Bishops in Rome making statements which could well be expected to come from the mouths of SSPX and independent clergy. Not to mention HH BXVI !
We have a diocean priest here in town who prays the EF, and from the pulpit of this diocean church, he expresses his sorrow for the horrid state of the Church today. He holds nothing back. And no one trys to silence him. I find that very comforting, and it’s the reason I have decided to distance myself from the absurdity and arrogance of those who have given up on Rome.
Wake up folks. We have traditionalists in the “concilliar Church” ! They walk the halls of the Vatican !
Why the SSPX doesn’t want a piece of this positive turn of events ?
Have they truly given up on Rome for good ?
Have they decided that perpetual inqusition is their calling untill death ?
Have they come to believe they are fighting a battle which will never be won ?
Or is it about money ?
Lest anyone think I’m bashing the SSPX…
I respect everything the SSPX has done and stood for. Up until the “perfect liberal/ what a mystery”. That was uncalled for and indicates a total disregard for Prudence, as well as adds support for the “elitest” label that has been unjustly thrown their way.
I sense a true springtime for the Church. Bishop Fellay, Bishop Williamson ? You want a hand in it or not ? Get your butts back in the fold and help train priests to pray the TLM ! Seek out the older churches in metro areas that have been closed or clustered and dust off those lonely High Altars of God and pray the Mass ! Bring your choirs and fill these churches with fitting praise as it was done long ago ! Do it for those who have never known the signature Rite of the Church. Do it for BXVI. He wants it.
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CassiusLonginus
Guest
Normally aquite a vocal and argumentative bunch, it seems that certain elements don’t want to be touched (specifically #36 and #39?).
Anyway, universalindult asked:
E.g. The bishop tells one of his priests to murder somebody…what does he do?
Anyway, universalindult asked:
Nice question. In the situation you describe, “obedience” should actually be termed “false obedience”. Remember, nobody is obliged to do something that is wrong even if a superior says so. As a matter of fact, we are obliged NOT to do as they say/ask.
E.g. The bishop tells one of his priests to murder somebody…what does he do?
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ethelzguy
Guest
I’m not afraid of your games…put all the hypotheticals out there that you want…Bottom line is, if you don’t like it, take it up with the Pope. Ask HIM why Lefebvre, et al, were excommunicated and the Bishop that doesn’t do what you think he should isn’t…
The fact of the matter is, that there is more to any of these stories than either you or I know or will likely ever know. And neither you nor I are in a position of authority to make those decisions.
But go ahead, play Pope, play smarter than the Pope, play smarter than the Church…play whatever games you like. You’re wasting your time and frustrating yourself, like so many others who think they have all the answers.
You don’t run the Catholic Church. Get over it.
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CassiusLonginus
Guest
I_believe,
To address some of your concerns, I’ll say that it’s not so much “distrust” coming from the SSPX as it is ‘caution’. They just don’t want to ever be put in a position to have to compromise their faith etc.
Also, Rome had their ‘ultimatum’ with their 5 points, but the SSPX also had a version of their own. You said:
To address some of your concerns, I’ll say that it’s not so much “distrust” coming from the SSPX as it is ‘caution’. They just don’t want to ever be put in a position to have to compromise their faith etc.
Also, Rome had their ‘ultimatum’ with their 5 points, but the SSPX also had a version of their own. You said:
They do! However, part of their ‘ultimatum’ was to hold doctrinal discussions before they jump out of the crow’s nest onto the main deck of the ship. Shoot, I’d be cautious too!
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kleary
Guest
What a joke -
All the preist needs to know how to say is “Hoc est enim corpus meum” and not even to pronounce it correctly just mean it and intend on doing what the Church does and the Mass is valid.
Same as in those clown masses and all the horrifying things we have seen over the past 30 years - all that is needed for validity is for the priest to say and understand and intend on doing what the Church does…and many of them DO NOT.
I understand though the scrutiny of things - I would not want to attend a TLM done shabilly and hear the Latin mispronounced by the priest.
Ken
All the preist needs to know how to say is “Hoc est enim corpus meum” and not even to pronounce it correctly just mean it and intend on doing what the Church does and the Mass is valid.
Same as in those clown masses and all the horrifying things we have seen over the past 30 years - all that is needed for validity is for the priest to say and understand and intend on doing what the Church does…and many of them DO NOT.
I understand though the scrutiny of things - I would not want to attend a TLM done shabilly and hear the Latin mispronounced by the priest.
Ken
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I_Believe
Guest
No games. Just an honest question that no one who harps on disobedience wants to tackle.I’m not afraid of your games…put all the hypotheticals out there that you want…Bottom line is, if you don’t like it, take it up with the Pope. Ask HIM why Lefebvre, et al, were excommunicated and the Bishop that doesn’t do what you think he should isn’t…
The fact of the matter is, that there is more to any of these stories than either you or I know or will likely ever know. And neither you nor I are in a position of authority to make those decisions.
But go ahead, play Pope, play smarter than the Pope, play smarter than the Church…play whatever games you like. You’re wasting your time and frustrating yourself, like so many others who think they have all the answers.
You don’t run the Catholic Church. Get over it.
It’s quite revealing. The whole issue, any issue, of division, is enabled by double standards.
Why will no one attempt to refute the claim that certain bishops are ignoring, or in some cases, blocking, the wishes of Pope BXVI as indicated in his SP ?
Saying it is something the laity should shut up about, while the continued screaming of “schismatic” and “excommunicated” despite Cardinal Hoyos’s statement that the SSPX/Rome issue is an internal matter is an indication of hypocracy, is it not ?
Not directing that at you personally, but it’s the truth.
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CassiusLonginus
Guest
I’m sorry to have wasted your time by addressing you with my questions, ethelzguy.I’m not afraid of your games…put all the hypotheticals out there that you want…Bottom line is, if you don’t like it, take it up with the Pope. Ask HIM why Lefebvre, et al, were excommunicated and the Bishop that doesn’t do what you think he should isn’t…
The fact of the matter is, that there is more to any of these stories than either you or I know or will likely ever know. And neither you nor I are in a position of authority to make those decisions.
But go ahead, play Pope, play smarter than the Pope, play smarter than the Church…play whatever games you like. You’re wasting your time and frustrating yourself, like so many others who think they have all the answers.
You don’t run the Catholic Church. Get over it.
Can any other OF CAF people come and actually address the questions? JR, Deacon? Somebody, please?
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I_Believe
Guest
That is what drives me nuts. Does anyone in the SSPX or their flock truly believe that there is even an inkling of a chance their faith will suffer ? There weren’t enough stones to knock the Faith out of Stephen, and frankly, I don’t think there are enough wolves left with strong enough arms to knock it out of the Society and it’s flock.
This Pope isn’t playing games. He knows what he’s getting. Rock solid Catholicism is what he’s getting.
Does anyone truly believe he’s baiting trads ? …
He’s acknowledged the Gregorian Rite was unjustly suppressed. Not in those words, but the SP by it’s nature has done so.
He has given his stamp of approval to Bishop Burke, and calling him to Rome. Bishop Burke is a fairly traditional catholic
Archbishop Ranjith is speaking with passion on a very important issue. And the Bishop of Rome must certainly agree. He’s got 'em kneeling and keeping their hands to themselves.
How about Cardinal Hoyos ? He goes to Westminister Catherdal to pray the Gregorian Rite for the first time in decades. Not a single bishop showed up last I read. The Cardinal proceeded to make clear that the SP isn’t going to go away due to the efforts of those who don’t even want the average catholic to know what the SP is, let alone expose them to the EF.
This statement by Cardinal Hoyos of having the EF in every parish (in the UK), really struck me. I truly believe that HH BXVI expects his bishops to respect his wishes to allow catholics the graces of the Gregorian Rite. I think it was the letter to the bishops that accompanied the SP that made it clear that the bishops were to let HH know how things are going in three years.
Hey, HH even replaced the elder Marini.
This Pope is throwing seeds. They will grow.
Mathew 13:24-30
24 Another parable he proposed to them, saying: The kingdom of heaven is likened to a man that sowed good seeds in his field. 25 But while men were asleep, his enemy came and oversowed cockle among the wheat and went his way.
26 And when the blade was sprung up, and had brought forth fruit, then appeared also the cockle. 27 And the servants of the goodman of the house coming said to him: Sir, didst thou not sow good seed in thy field? whence then hath it cockle? 28 And he said to them: An enemy hath done this. And the servants said to him: Wilt thou that we go and gather it up? 29 And he said: No, lest perhaps gathering up the cockle, you root up the wheat also together with it. 30 Suffer both to grow until the harvest, and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers: Gather up first the cockle, and bind it into bundles to burn, but the wheat gather ye into my barn.
Fair enough, but the matter of Doctrine doesn’t look like it’s going to be solved without first securing a lifting of excommunication. Whether the excommunications and suspensions are lifted due to an acknowledgement of their unjustice, or by virtue of an acceptance of the five conditions of Rome, matters of Doctrine should be debated and settled among those in full communion with Rome.
The Church could use a few good Roman Catholics.
Sorry for ranting, but I love what the SSPX has done for 20 years, and I just feel so upset of the stigma they seem to reluctantly embrace. I know there are souls at stake, but the souls they have won for Christ won’t be lost if they choose unity.
Get in there and help clean up this mess.
Easy for me to say, sure. I missed the worst of it all. I was a non practicing Roman Catholic from about '72 till late '06. So I don’t expect to change anyone’s mind.
These two articles had a huge impact on my opinion, as does the parable from Matthew.
Fr Michael Mary’s view…
papastronsay.blogspot.com/2008_04_01_archive.html
And Anthony Mazzone’s…
remnantnewspaper.com/Archives/archive-2008-0430-mazzone-what_is_to_be_done.htm
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PrayforMallory
Guest
I agree wholeheartedly. I think we’re in a difficult “phase” right now.There you have it.
… from one who the wolves wanted to deport to Sri Lanka.
I assume Archbishop Ranjith is still in Rome ?
And that is what I don’t get about the SSPX. Here we have positive signals coming from Rome that there is acknowledgement of errors that have contributed to the crisis, yet every ray of hope is met with distrust.
Look at the ridiculous comments on AQ and FE about the Transalpine Redemptorists “selling out”. Ask one of the nay sayers to name a single piece of evidence to support their childish slurs, and all you’ll get is " you’ll see, just a matter of time". They base this on what “happened” to the FSSP. Or some mention of Campos, yada yada yada.
We have a new Pope now. All that happened under a different Pope.
BTW, for those who don’t know, the Transalpine Redemptorists will have a new name Aug 2nd.
Read it here…
papastronsay.blogspot.com/2008/07/no-more-servants-but-sons-gal-iv7.html
The paranoia is absurd. Come on, we have Cardinals and Bishops in Rome making statements which could well be expected to come from the mouths of SSPX and independent clergy. Not to mention HH BXVI !
We have a diocean priest here in town who prays the EF, and from the pulpit of this diocean church, he expresses his sorrow for the horrid state of the Church today. He holds nothing back. And no one trys to silence him. I find that very comforting, and it’s the reason I have decided to distance myself from the absurdity and arrogance of those who have given up on Rome.
Wake up folks. We have traditionalists in the “concilliar Church” ! They walk the halls of the Vatican !
Why the SSPX doesn’t want a piece of this positive turn of events ?
Have they truly given up on Rome for good ?
Have they decided that perpetual inqusition is their calling untill death ?
Have they come to believe they are fighting a battle which will never be won ?
Or is it about money ?
Lest anyone think I’m bashing the SSPX…
I respect everything the SSPX has done and stood for. Up until the “perfect liberal/ what a mystery”. That was uncalled for and indicates a total disregard for Prudence, as well as adds support for the “elitest” label that has been unjustly thrown their way.
I sense a true springtime for the Church. Bishop Fellay, Bishop Williamson ? You want a hand in it or not ? Get your butts back in the fold and help train priests to pray the TLM ! Seek out the older churches in metro areas that have been closed or clustered and dust off those lonely High Altars of God and pray the Mass ! Bring your choirs and fill these churches with fitting praise as it was done long ago ! Do it for those who have never known the signature Rite of the Church. Do it for BXVI. He wants it.
The traditional movement has become legitimate, and the resistance (and resistance to the resistance) has become a lot more vapid, because the TLM is spreading.
I know I’ve been too rigid. At one point, I caught myself telling a dissenter on the Social Justice section that she was going to hell. It was crazy. Of course that’s unacceptable behavior, and not something I normally go around doing, but it just gets so frustrating. It’s the same old arguments every time. The same issues. “How do you go to Mass if you don’t understand it?” And I say, over and over again, “You learn. You learn,” and that any human being on this planet can learn the TLM, and that there are 10 year olds in the most inaccessible, rural regions of the globe who know their way around the Mass, but no one will accept it.
When a Cardinal says something, no one will accept it. When you cite Pope Benedict, no one will accept it. Heck, when you point out the GIRM, no one will accept it. No one wants to change one shred of their post-conciliar experience.
What’s doubly frustrating is knowing that if “trads” don’t start being a little more understanding (read: Nice and not nutty), then we aren’t going to win anybody to our thinking. Of course, I’m guilty of it too. I came down to hard on the Lifeteen thread but that was because I have a particularly sore spot, due to seeing the old Pentecostal traditions completely destroyed by that stuff as a kid.
The resistance to Tradition, and the nutty stuff that tends to go along with it, are both unacceptable, in my view.
Ethelzguy, I know we’ve butted heads, but I’ve enjoyed some of your posts. I know you went to the Tridentine Mass back in the day, but all of the old problems are fixed. Why not try it out a couple of times and then we can discuss things?
Just a thought.
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PrayforMallory
Guest
I bet if they were regularized, 4 times as many people would be going to their Masses.
Knowing what the Campos people had to accept, knowing how little they had to change their stance, well, I’m confident the SSPX will be regularized. They basically have to concede nothing.
It’s got to be hard, having been pushed to the fringe for so long, to confront this kind of change. Giving up the marginalization might actually be difficult for them, as well as the Church at large.
Just my opinion.
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eelpis
Guest
What’s your problem?? Do you hate the TLM so much you would like to stop most priests from saying it? Grinchen stole the TLM.What difference does it make if I pronounce it correctly!
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I_Believe
Guest
Sure their flock will grow ! And their schools will see an increase in numbers of students
But as far as adjusting to a regularization, I feel a huge burden will be lifted form the shoulders of the SSPX parishioners. No more stigma.
BTW, Have you read the articles I posted links to a couple of posts above ? (post 49) Please do so when you have time.
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I_Believe
Guest
Thanks, and I agree with most all you said as well.
In fairness, one of the arguments made by trads is that the mass was yanked out from under them. A general “about face” was thrust upon them. It is a valid and just argument.
At the same time, we can’t expect a Pope to come along and banish the only Mass some catholics have ever known. That would require another version of " an open letter to confused catholics "
I would hope the SSPX understands this concern.
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CassiusLonginus
Guest
Definitely. Then my mom will stop praying for my conversion to Catholicism, and my siblings/dad will stop telling me I’m not Catholic.No more stigma.
Instead, however, I’ll never hear the end of “well, NOW you’re a Catholic, but before they were regularized you weren’t”
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I_Believe
Guest
I feel for you. If it happens, come back with, "well now that we are regularized, you can come to Mass with me "
Seriously though, it will pass with time.
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CassiusLonginus
Guest
Lol, seriously. I remember my first TLM several years ago. I was dating a girl (now my wife) and I had to drive 40 miles (to what was then the ‘indult’). As I was walking out of the house where the rest of my fam was getting ready for Mass, my dad says “Have a nice time. You know, there’s a Catholic church two blocks away…” What a hateriffic comment. He is several years older than ethelzguy, and far more advanced in the art of EF apathy/dislike.I feel for you. If it happens, come back with, "well now that we are regularized, you can come to Mass with me "
Seriously though, it will pass with time.
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ethelzguy
Guest
I am floored by this conversation. What utter lack of respect for the Holy Father and the Chair of Peter, to be even going down this road.
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cothrige
Guest
It is an act of disrespect to the Holy Father to wish people would obey him? That is your position? Really?
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ethelzguy
Guest
I find it to be highly disrespectful to be waging cyber-battle, comparing excommunications that are in force to those that lay individuals think should be enacted/enforced, based on said laity’s personal interpretations of what they think is going on, probably without full knowledge of all the facts and details.It is an act of disrespect to the Holy Father to wish people would obey him? That is your position? Really?
Neither you nor I sit in the Chair of Peter. But I suppose you could submit your resume to Rome, and perhaps they might enlist you to clean up the Church.
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