Soul and resurrection?

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Just to play “Devils’ advocate”:

Because shape, limbs, heads etc are characteristics of **bodies, **not souls?

Because “personality” requires a **person – ** i.e., soul and body; not a ghost?

ICXC NIKA
we will take a poor patient and progressively chop off limbs, no matter how far we progress with our chopping the poor patient remains the same person and personality.
personality does not require a complete body, it only requires to be created by its creator for a body. after death its soul is the shape and personality of its ideal created form. its body, if it was not chopped up, would have the perfect shape its soul has , naturally with the imperfections of an imperfect world thats not always possible.
 
The attributes of the rational soul are will and intelligence but is suited to the particular body that it was created with, and that potential in the rational soul distinguishes it from other rational souls. The sensitive and vegetative souls (Aquinas), which are not moral, die with the body.
will and intelligence and an individual soul indicate a spiritual body, if you can imagine it, as those attributes indicate an individual material body on earth.
 
will and intelligence and an individual soul indicate a spiritual body, if you can imagine it, as those attributes indicate an individual material body on earth.
The Catholic Church uses “spiritual body” in a specific way, reserved for subtility, a transcendent endowment of a resurrected saint. All rational souls have will and intelligence, regardless of the presence of endowments.

“It is sown a natural body, it shall rise a spiritual body.” (1 Corinthians 15:44).

There are four transcendent endowments: impassibility, glory, agility, and subtility.
 
The Catholic Church uses “spiritual body” in a specific way, reserved for subtility, a transcendent endowment of a resurrected saint. All rational souls have will and intelligence, regardless of the presence of endowments.

“It is sown a natural body, it shall rise a spiritual body.” (1 Corinthians 15:44).

There are four transcendent endowments: impassibility, glory, agility, and subtility.
vico, this all is totally new to me and interesting, but difficult to understand. like most people, i know many who have died, and have seen them in dreams, not as they were but different, some good, some could be a bit better, different.
souls in purgatory in one dream are in a field, in this dream, with many others with a task, physical, to complete or achieve a construction.
i believe it is true because my friend who believes nothing really at all saw the same man, her friend and my friend in an uncomfortable state, he told her, in her dream, that he did not want to be there and wanted a taxi or hotel or somesuch. to me he said nothing, only a sad expression as he stood in front of me, behind him were many men very busy hastily constructing a framework of timber, he was a carpenter. it was a field with no comfort, and work progressed without any or much rest or comfort i could see, as quickly as they could do it.
now, my friend and i had the same dream more or less insofar as he did not want to be there, to her, and to me he wanted to be anywhere else but said nothing.
a relative who died sometime later, who was an older woman appeared in the same setting but her roll was to stay wrapped up in a coat but to oversee the work in, conscientious but uncomfortable, detail which was tiring to her.

now one may speculate and define things unknown based on theories of forgotten or unknown instigation but seeing people who are dead and hearing from a friend a similar state for our friend gives me reason to think of the dead as real people, constrained and put upon to do what they can though they wish to be anywhere else.

this indicates to me that they are not some idealistic amorphous spirit but a real cohesive human in another state desiring to be free if they are not already.
 
vico, this all is totally new to me and interesting, but difficult to understand. like most people, i know many who have died, and have seen them in dreams, not as they were but different, some good, some could be a bit better, different.
souls in purgatory in one dream are in a field, in this dream, with many others with a task, physical, to complete or achieve a construction.
i believe it is true because my friend who believes nothing really at all saw the same man, her friend and my friend in an uncomfortable state, he told her, in her dream, that he did not want to be there and wanted a taxi or hotel or somesuch. to me he said nothing, only a sad expression as he stood in front of me, behind him were many men very busy hastily constructing a framework of timber, he was a carpenter. it was a field with no comfort, and work progressed without any or much rest or comfort i could see, as quickly as they could do it.
now, my friend and i had the same dream more or less insofar as he did not want to be there, to her, and to me he wanted to be anywhere else but said nothing.
a relative who died sometime later, who was an older woman appeared in the same setting but her roll was to stay wrapped up in a coat but to oversee the work in, conscientious but uncomfortable, detail which was tiring to her.

now one may speculate and define things unknown based on theories of forgotten or unknown instigation but seeing people who are dead and hearing from a friend a similar state for our friend gives me reason to think of the dead as real people, constrained and put upon to do what they can though they wish to be anywhere else.

this indicates to me that they are not some idealistic amorphous spirit but a real cohesive human in another state desiring to be free if they are not already.
Certainly there is room for more than one conception of the life after death within the constraints of Catholic’s to Catholic dogma for immortal soul and mortal body:
  1. Man consists of two essential parts–a material body and a spiritual soul.
  2. The rational soul is per se the essential form of the body.
  3. Every human being possesses an individual soul.
On an interesting one, showing that the intelligence and will is operative for souls after death: The Souls in Purgatory can intercede for other members of the Mystical Body.

Aquinas was neither a materialist nor an idealist. Idealism is “any system or theory that maintains the real is of the nature of thought or that the object of external perception consists of ideas” - Collins Dictionary. So Hegel and Berkeley come to mind as examples of objective and subjective idealists, respectively.

Are you familiar with the neo-Freudian Gustav Carl Jung? He wrote:
“It is not easy for modern man to grasp the significance of the symbols . . . from the past . . . or that appear in dreams.” – Symbols of Transcendence, p. 156
 
It is difficult to understand you since you use technical word without defining them and you don’t use quote system.
Identity is the substantial being: the parts of a substance receive identity by being those parts.
What is substantial being?
It is the sensitive part which apprehends individual things. The memory is only in the sensitive part when in the notion of memory we include its object as something past.
So we lose our memory upon death?
The mode of action in an agent follows from its mode of existence, and the soul has one mode of being when in the body, and another mode of being when apart from it.
Why?
 
It is difficult to understand you since you use technical word without defining them and you don’t use quote system.

What is substantial being?

So we lose our memory upon death?

Why?
From Aristotle and used by Aquinas: **being **signifies that which is divided into the ten categories, of which the first is substance, and the other nine are accidents.

Substance is what does not exist in another and not said of another. Accident is what exists in and is said of another.

From Aristotle Categories, Chapter 4: “Expressions which are in no way composite signify substance, quantity, quality, relation, place, time, position, state, action, or affection.”

The memory of past events is lost with the death of the body, because the sensitive soul dies, per the teaching of Aquinas. The composition of the body includes the sensitive and vegetative souls. We can say that there exists a sensitive soul in animals which is the principle of knowledge and appetite, and that we can say that there exists a vegetative soul in animals and plants which is the principle of nutrition and the augmentation. Finally, the rational soul which is intelligence and will and is immortal. So the total human person is soul and body.

Re: The mode of action in an agent follows from its mode of existence.
Action follows being or activity follows existence is an axiom of metaphysics: "To act” follows “to be.” Action follows (and manifests) the being of something.
 
One thing needs to have shape to be visible. Shapeless soul cannot be visible hence the act of resurrection is impossible.
Just thinking: we see shape with our eyes. What eyes does God use? Since His eyes are not physical he can see that which is invisible.
The soul is invisible to mortal man, fine. Mortal man isn’t the one judging or resurrecting.
 
From Aristotle and used by Aquinas: **being **signifies that which is divided into the ten categories, of which the first is substance, and the other nine are accidents.

Substance is what does not exist in another and not said of another. Accident is what exists in and is said of another.

From Aristotle Categories, Chapter 4: “Expressions which are in no way composite signify substance, quantity, quality, relation, place, time, position, state, action, or affection.”
How this could be related to my question? My question was what is substantial being since you mentioned that identity is a substantial being.
The memory of past events is lost with the death of the body, because the sensitive soul dies, per the teaching of Aquinas. The composition of the body includes the sensitive and vegetative souls. We can say that there exists a sensitive soul in animals which is the principle of knowledge and appetite, and that we can say that there exists a vegetative soul in animals and plants which is the principle of nutrition and the augmentation. Finally, the rational soul which is intelligence and will and is immortal. So the total human person is soul and body.
But our experiences give shapes to our identity. So how we could have any identity when we forget all past events.
 
Just thinking: we see shape with our eyes. What eyes does God use? Since His eyes are not physical he can see that which is invisible.

The soul is invisible to mortal man, fine. Mortal man isn’t the one judging or resurrecting.
God could see what is spiritual but he cannot see what is shapeless.
 
How this could be related to my question? My question was what is substantial being since you mentioned that identity is a substantial being.

But our experiences give shapes to our identity. So how we could have any identity when we forget all past events.
Originally Posted by Vico
Identity is the substantial being: the parts of a substance receive identity by being those parts.
I mean by substantial being, the substance (ousia) which is the first category of being. Aristotle said “the question … ‘what is being?’ … is just the question ‘what is substance?’” (1028b2-4). It is because among beings, the things that there are, it is substances rather than qualities, quantities, etc., that are fundamental. The rational human soul is in essence the substantial form of a human body, where body and soul together make up one substance.

Per metaphysics, identity is defined that each thing is the same with itself and different from another. Aquinas teaches that identity is substantial unity. It is for the good of the composite that the soul is united to the body.

*Summa Theologica, I, Q75, A2: *
Therefore the intellectual principle which we call the mind or the intellect has an operation “per se” apart from the body. Now only that which subsists can have an operation “per se.” For nothing can operate but what is actual: for which reason we do not say that heat imparts heat, but that what is hot gives heat. We must conclude, therefore, that the human soul, which is called the intellect or the mind, is something incorporeal and subsistent.
newadvent.org/summa/1075.htm#article2
 
God could see what is spiritual but he cannot see what is shapeless.
Are we using the idea of an omnipotent God for the purpose of this discussion or not?
As God is shapeless why can he not identify other things that are shapeless?
 
Are we using the idea of an omnipotent God for the purpose of this discussion or not?
As God is shapeless why can he not identify other things that are shapeless?
َA shapeless thing does have many problems including invisibility. Knowledge also structured hence a shapeless God cannot have any knowledge.
 
I am puzzled with the concepts of soul and resurrection for a while. The problem is as following: Soul is defined as form of body. Soul gets separated from body upon death. This means that soul is formless after death hence all attributes like, personality, identity, etc are gone upon death meaning that all souls do look similar after death. The act of resurrection is problematic now since all attributes related to a person is gone upon death.

Your thought?
The soul remains united to the intellect (also immaterial) after death, and so in a way is imprinted as unique to the individual. A dog without a leg is still a dog. A dog without any legs is still a dog. A dog without any legs and a tail is still a dog… Likewise, the immortal soul of a human and it’s intellect is still a human, even if it’s missing parts that are normal to being human. Eventually it is reunited and whole again.

Also, the soul is not formless because it is immaterial. There are immaterial beings who are simply forms/essences after all, such as the angels and God.
 
How a shapeless thing, soul of a dead person, could accommodate any memory? Memory is information and information has structure.
You’re conflating the immaterial mind with the physical operations of the brain and the expression of those traits. If the physical brain is damaged the interaction with mind will be affected.
 
You’re conflating the immaterial mind with the physical operations of the brain and the expression of those traits. If the physical brain is damaged the interaction with mind will be affected.
Where is the memory? Inside mind or brain?
 
Especially for Bahman, to increase understanding of the Catholic teaching on the soul, which are different than that in the Arabic philosophies:

From Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott, pp. 97-98, 100, 150-151:

The rational soul is per se the essential form of the body. (De fide.)
Body and soul are connected "with each other, not merely externally like a vessel and its contents, a ship and its pilot (Plato, Descartes, Leibniz), but as an intrinsic natural unit, so that the spiritual soul is of itself and essentially the form of the body. The Council of Vienne (1311-1312) condemned as heretical : quod anima rationalis seu intellectiva non sit forma corporis humani per se et essentialiter. D 481, c£ 738, 1655.

Every human being possesses an individual soul. (De fide.)
The Fifth General Lateran Council (1512-17) denounced the humanistic neo-Platonists (Pietro Pomponazzi) who espoused Averroistic monopsychism declaring that the rational soul in all men is numerically one unique principle, and that only this general soul is immortal: damnamus et reprobamus omnes asscrentcs animam intellectivam olortaletn esse aut unicam in cunctis hominibus. D[enzinger] 738 (we condemn and reprove all who maintain that the rational soul is mortal or one unique reality (shared) in (by) every man). The individuality of each soul is an essential presupposition of personal inlmortality.

Every individual soul was immediately created out of nothing by God. (Sent. certa.)
Creationism, taught by the vast majority of the Fathers by the Schoolmen, and by modem theology, holds that each individual soul is created by God out of nothing at the noment of its unification with the body. This doctrine is not defined; it is, however, indirectly expressed in the decision of faith of the 5th General Lateran Council (*pro corporum, quibus infunditur, multitudine multiplicanda *: D[enzinger] 738).

The Hypostatic Union was never interrupted. (Sent. certa.)
The Apostles’ Creed asserts of the Son of God that He suffered, was crucified, died, was buried (according to the body) and descended into Hell (according to the soul). Christ’s death dissolved the connection between body and soul, Christ was therefore during the three days not “man” that is, a compositum of body and soul (S. th. Ill, 50, 4) - but His death did not dissolve the attachment of Godhead and humanity, or of their parts. Even after their separation the body and the soul separately remained hypostatically united with the Divine Logos.
The teaching of the Church is opposed by the Gnostic-Manichaean teaching, according to which the Logos left the man before the Passion.
 
Where is the memory? Inside mind or brain?
It’s not really an either/or. Both are interconnected, particularly when we need to interact with the body. Thomists are not the same kind of dualists that Descartes advocated. We are not immaterial beings simply driving material husks, we are both immaterial and material. Both are just as important to being fully human.

I do think the mind has memories, but it interacts with the material brain, which patterns it there, too.

I think it would be better to say that the human mind carries out immaterial operations even while it operates with a material brain, so the mind must be immaterial or have an immaterial component.
 
It’s not really an either/or. Both are interconnected, particularly when we need to interact with the body. Thomists are not the same kind of dualists that Descartes advocated. We are not immaterial beings simply driving material husks, we are both immaterial and material. Both are just as important to being fully human.
But memory is information and information is structured which means that memory has a shape hence memory cannot be located in shapeless mind.
 
But memory is information and information is structured which means that memory has a shape hence memory cannot be located in shapeless mind.
Informational structure does not imply or require a geometrical shape.

ICXC NIKA
 
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